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[Woakes]

This thread is just an illustration of how far the MMO has to go as a genre.

This.

Honestly they're not even trying to do something new with them any more. Most claims to the contrary just involve some small tweak to the risk vs reward curve, or pvp, or loot emphasis etc. They are still static worlds with static mobs though. One of my pet hates in WoW was the dungeons. Especially in Outland where they are not so much labyrinths as slightly bent corridors.

I want to see NPC's that go to bed at night, the seedy side of life that emerges at night in the cities, underground dungeons that I can get lost in etc etc. And no more magically appearing whistle horses. UO may have bad graphics but it's still the most advanced mmorpg out there. Horses that hang around when you dismount, houses you can build anywhere, dungeons you can lose yourself in, trees you can cut down etc. Vanguard came very close but the aborted development and poisonous publisher interference pretty much killed it at birth.

Stopping now because I could rant for a really long time about this and it's boring. I'm done with the genre though until it at the very least catches up with UO (but with erm... graphics).

 

[TomServo]

SWG pre combat upgrade

greatest mmo of all time

This.

The one thing I truly hate about WoW is how it's put player crafting in its grave. Sorry folks, but gathering some loot drops and clicking a button should not be considered anything close to crafting. I was one of my server's elite crafters in SWG, and that was crafting. It required a brain to be a top teir crafter - maybe that's why we were the ones that really ran the game.

Back to the OP, EVE is a truly great MMO, but on the whole I can't think of one more hardcore. I'd love to play it casually (and I've tried multiple times), but there's really no place for the casual EVE player.

Not sure why EQ is on the top of the list. That place really belongs to UO.

 

[shintoki]

As someone said, Eve is the definition of a hardcore game. Think about it like this. The basic interface of the game, is more like opening up an unreal game engine or something like that.
The universe is the same...they give you complete control over it. The players. Its not like WoW where you go to an instance or anything. You literially just float in space. There is no guide to how you play, what to do etc. Best way to think about it is...your just given an open world to explore. fight others. and such. Its not based on time played also but time you had your account activate too. You learn skills regardless of playing or not.
Its a completely different take on MMO. I've been thinking about trying it again.

Now my favorite was SWG. It was interesting since it was a completely player run economy for the most part but without being too complex. Pretty much all you did was take missions from a terminal and do them. Thats how you made money. Thats it. They had some quest...but I can't recall a single one of them.:lol But it had something to it. They didn't have levels. You just leveled up a profession which only took a month or so of casual play for a combat, and for the crafting ones how much money you willing to spend:lol There were no real uber items from pvp raids or anything. Those were more novelity items. it was more grab a crafted armour and go for it. PVP, go Hunt down rare animals, Build your house, etc.

 

[Grayman]

perfect example of an awesome game made on accident. Hit detection + super fast run speeds 4TW

Amazing run speeds. And definitely all by accident. The last few dev teams have all said that they can't change a lot of things and that the whole casting "system" couldn't be done in a new game.

I would still play if the game wasn't steered in directions I didn't like the whole time i played.

 

[KyanMehwulfe]

EVE is just that rad.

Another wicked one.

 

[TomServo]

Fucking love Goon Squad. I had no idea how big it was, I just knew that the Goon Squad guys I knew well in SWG were freaking hilarious.

 

[MrPing1000]

When you talk about Ultima Online you have to remember that the version that is actually good is free. EA's UO is a husk of the mightiness it once was, kinda pathetic really how much they've ballsed it up.

EVE, the thing about EVE is I get an urge to play it now and again but that urge goes away when I actually do play, it's just too fricken much to take in, I'd be doing transport quests and not have a good idea of what I'm doing them for. Never got into combat either, so many numbers and variables to take into consideration.

Really if you're going to play EVE, you have to realise that you're going to have to do a heck of a lot of reading.

 

[Durante]

I'm done with the genre though until it at the very least catches up with UO

Well said, I fully agree with this. Up until a few years back I tried every MMO released, only to be disappointed by each of them at some point -- realizing that they got things wrong (or simply didn't include features) that UO did right years earlier.

 

[MrPing1000]

The modern model of mmo (eve exluded, probably a few more) generally follows the EQ model of classes.

I guess it's easier to balance, UOs open ended system leads to much more flexibility but theres always one combo that will usually win out oh and magery has always been way too powerful, you cannot pvp without it (cept maybe in factions).

I did love the people that put the effort in to making characters 7x gm with the most useless skills.

 

[i hate bees]

SWG pre combat upgrade

greatest mmo of all time

For me, this. It was broken, flawed, unbalanced - but if it wasn't for the 'combat upgrade(s)' I'd still be playing it today. Bounty hunting player Jedi was one of the most fun experiences I've ever had in an MMO because it just became so personal, bursting in to an ingame wedding ceremondy and laying in to the groom with a vibrating knuckle duster infront of helpless onlookers, pricesless. I loved that game.

 

[My Arms Your Hearse]

It all depends on what you want out of a MMO.

For me, killing other players (and possibly ruining their night in the process) is the only thing that matters. As such, WoW and any other raid-oriented MMO with bad and/or inconsequential PvP are horrible to me. Of that list, DAoC was by far the best to me. Actually, up to ToA, it was probably the most fun I've had online.

 

[Gasgul]

Fucking love Goon Squad. I had no idea how big it was, I just knew that the Goon Squad guys I knew well in SWG were freaking hilarious.

heh,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1sdTzj9iac

the goonfleet presentation at 2007's fanfest

 

[Zedsdeadbaby]

The article basically took just one redeeming feature of each game listed and basically said 'look this one feature is why the game is better than WoW despite it doing everything from every other mmorpg so damn well'. Pretty poor showing if you ask me. I don't want to have to play 5 different mmos to get the full spectrum of activities if I can just play on WoW which has everything. Everquest has raiding but sucks at everything else; DAoC has pvp but sucks at everything else; LOTRO has lore but sucks at everything else; EVE has economy but sucks at everything else; Dream of Mirror has what, 'color' 'anime' 'casualness'? Still sucks at everything else.

World of Warcraft is best summed up as the jack of all trades and perhaps a master of none, but it brings together the best MMORPG genre staple qualities and forms it into a cohesive and coherent package.

 

[Gallagher]

I only enjoyed EVE Online for a while. I dont like the rest or i dont even know it. ^^

 

[My Arms Your Hearse]

The article basically took just one redeeming feature of each game listed and basically said 'look this one feature is why the game is better than WoW despite it doing everything from every other mmorpg so damn well'. Pretty poor showing if you ask me. I don't want to have to play 5 different mmos to get the full spectrum of activities if I can just play on WoW which has everything. Everquest has raiding but sucks at everything else; DAoC has pvp but sucks at everything else; LOTRO has lore but sucks at everything else; EVE has economy but sucks at everything else; Dream of Mirror has what, 'color' 'anime' 'casualness'? Still sucks at everything else.

World of Warcraft is best summed up as the jack of all trades and perhaps a master of none, but it brings together the best MMORPG genre staple qualities and forms it into a cohesive and coherent package.

This is where we disagree. I don't think WoW does much of ANYTHING particularly well, other than being "polished."

Furthermore, most people aren't interested in doing everything. Even WoW itself has split into several groups that, pretty much, exclusively do one thing or another (Raid vs. Arena is a good example). And they're getting a vastly inferior experience in most cases.

 

[fanboi]

The article basically took just one redeeming feature of each game listed and basically said 'look this one feature is why the game is better than WoW despite it doing everything from every other mmorpg so damn well'. Pretty poor showing if you ask me. I don't want to have to play 5 different mmos to get the full spectrum of activities if I can just play on WoW which has everything. Everquest has raiding but sucks at everything else; DAoC has pvp but sucks at everything else; LOTRO has lore but sucks at everything else; EVE has economy but sucks at everything else; Dream of Mirror has what, 'color' 'anime' 'casualness'? Still sucks at everything else.

World of Warcraft is best summed up as the jack of all trades and perhaps a master of none, but it brings together the best MMORPG genre staple qualities and forms it into a cohesive and coherent package.

This.

Also, WoW is one of the most important games in the history of gaming.

 

[My Arms Your Hearse]

This.

Also, WoW is one of the most important games in the history of gaming.

...which has nothing to do with the inherit quality of the game itself.

 

[Maztorre]

WoW is one of the most important games in the history of gaming.

In that it has completely stagnated any progress in the MMO space, yeah.

 

[tahrikmili]

For an old Jumpgate player, is Eve worth checking out? How much talent does PvP require? In Jumpgate it was 100% talent related.

 

[Atrophis]

If you want meaningful PVP, EVE is the only MMO that matters.

It fully fulfills my needs to live out my fantasy as a pirate scumbag, prowling low sec space and killing the unwary

But yes its not for everyone. Its not really for PVE, althought there are plenty of quests and such to do.

Its not for the whiney who cant stand to be killed by another player because they are too lazy to learn how to protect themselves properly (hint, use the scanner and map).

Its not for people who want content handed to them on a plate, you make your own content.

Any complains that its a spreadsheat, not a game, or a boring mining simulator, or that the quests are boring just really goes to show how you dont understand the game. Join a corp at least and get some experience of low sec or 0.0.

 

[fanboi]

For an old Jumpgate player, is Eve worth checking out? How much talent does PvP require? In Jumpgate it was 100% talent related.

It req. money and tech :|

 

[Open Source]

Yea, well, LOTR's music system is real.

I played around with it a bit in beta, but I never ended up buying the final game. I remapped keys so that I could play all 3 sets of notes together instead of using shift and control. Since I'm not a musician or anything, it was fun being able to pretend to play an instrument while actually making up music (unlike Guitar Hero / Rock Band, where you aren't creating anything).

Unfortunately, by the time beta ended, most people who played were using macros to play pop/rock songs, which was I thought was lame. Here are a couple recordings of my random made-up stuff I played at the fountain in Bree:

http://www.dancingrobotstudios.com/blog/files/lotr.mp3
http://www.dancingrobotstudios.com/blog/files/lotr2.mp3

 

[Zedsdeadbaby]

This is where we disagree. I don't think WoW does much of ANYTHING particularly well, other than being "polished."

Furthermore, most people aren't interested in doing everything. Even WoW itself has split into several groups that, pretty much, exclusively do one thing or another (Raid vs. Arena is a good example). And they're getting a vastly inferior experience in most cases.

Why haven't those looking for specific raid or arena or story experiences gone to the other games though? There are lots of pvp fanatics in World of Warcraft, yet the vast majority of those wouldn't touch Dark Age of Camelot. I don't really believe that World of Warcraft paved the way towards a multi-million dollar MMORPG endeavor with such a large number of subscribers simply because it was 'polished'. Games tend to lose their playerbase before long if it's just polish and nothing else, yet this game that forces you to pay a small sum every month has no problem maintaining its audience. There are real reasons as to why it's the most popular mmorpg - it's just a neat overall package that does everything well - note I concede it's not the absolute best in any field but the amount of content, support and commitment to WoW by Blizzard is what keeps the game going.

If WoW provides such vastly inferior experiences, why aren't they moving away?

In that it has completely stagnated any progress in the MMO space, yeah.

WoW expanded the MMO market. It didn't wedge into it. More people than ever are now playing mmorpgs because of it. There were only 2 million players at the most before WoW came to the scene, now we're seeing literally tens of million players across the MMORPG scene.

 

[Atrophis]

WoW expanded the MMO market. It didn't wedge into it. More people than ever are now playing mmorpgs because of it. There were only 2 million players at the most before WoW came to the scene, now we're seeing literally tens of million players across the MMORPG scene.

Maybe in the west. There were already several Korean MMO's with millions of subcribers before WOW came along (Lineage). Although admittedly their subscription models usually work differently.

 

[Gasgul]

It req. money and tech :|

not really,

starting characters are around 800,000 sp,

the noob storyline missions(10) you first get assighned will give you basic tackling skills, and upto 3 frigates,

joining a pvp corp being used as a warp/propulsion jamming(tackle) in gangs/fleets, your ships and modules would be covered for losses by your corp,

you just need to look around, hell go sign up for goonfleet, if you want,

 

[Ledsen]

I dunno...

http://kyosho.web.infoseek.co.jp/cgi-bin/joyful/img/918.jpg[/IM
[IMG]http://kyosho.web.infoseek.co.jp/cgi-bin/joyful/img/539.jpg[/IM
[IMG]http://kyosho.web.infoseek.co.jp/cgi-bin/joyful/img/552.jpg[/IM
[IMG]http://kyosho.web.infoseek.co.jp/cgi-bin/joyful/img/752.jpg[/IM
[IMG]http://eq2images.station.sony.com/000/001/123/297.JPG[/IM]
[IMG]http://kyosho.web.infoseek.co.jp/cgi-bin/joyful/img/1030.jpg[/IM

for more check here: [url]http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=30&topic_id=344003[/url][/QUOTE]

wow, that game has the ugliest design I've ever seen :lol

 

[SomeDude]

WoW is way better than those. I'm very glad Gamespot gave it GOTY in 2004. and it IS still the best out there.

 

[Wark]

WoW is way better than those. I'm very glad Gamespot gave it GOTY in 2004. and it IS still the best out there.

 

[Eric WK]

Sweet, so each of these seems to do one thing right, while WoW does them all very well.

Exactly. Stupid list.

 

[Teknopathetic]

WoW does very little very well in actuality. Makes it look neat, sure. EQ and now WoW have completely ruined the MMO space with their popularity leaving only niche games like Eve to show what MMOs can *truly* do. I've said it before and I'll say it again, If UO was significantly more popular than EQ instead of the opposite, the MMO market would be *significantly* better than what it currently is. As it is, we've got stale trash like WoW.

Here's hoping for World of Darkness Online in 2009-2010.

 

[herod]

From the descriptions, I should like Dream of Mirror Online better, but it looks totally fucking retarded. Oh well.

 

[jakershaker]

WoW does very little very well in actuality. Makes it look neat, sure. EQ and now WoW have completely ruined the MMO space with their popularity leaving only niche games like Eve to show what MMOs can *truly* do. I've said it before and I'll say it again, If UO was significantly more popular than EQ instead of the opposite, the MMO market would be *significantly* better than what it currently is.

Here's hoping for World of Darkness Online in 2009-2010

But while EVE is a very impressive game it's also too hardcore for most of the market. Pushing the envelope is not for everyone. Hell, I consider myself a semi-hardcore gamer and EVE is just too much

What WoW does is that it brings together the MMO genre in a very polished package which appeals to everyone. Easy to use, easy to play for the casuals and still with room for the pvp and endgame crowd. Add the huge userbase and the fact that it's a Blizzard game (humor, design and overall feel) and you'll see why no MMO is going to knock them off the throne in a long time. If diffrent games does things better or not it's more of a personal opinion but what you can't say is that WoW does not do things well.

 

[Teknopathetic]

Why would I care about knocking WoW off a throne? I'm not a shareholder. So long as the game is 1) Actually good and comes closer to realizing the "ideal" of what MMOs can be (something WoW and EQ and uh...every other MMO besides Eve don't do) and 2) big enough so that it can be profitable enough that the company developing it thinks that it's wise to continue supporting it, that's all that matters to me.

Furthermore, I don't think anyone denies Blizzard's knack for polish and silly pop culture references that keeps the plebs lawling. The game design is atrocious, just like EQs was (and WoW's just a well polished EQ. A really, really successful EQ).

 

[jakershaker]

Why would I care about knocking WoW off a throne? I'm not a shareholder. So long as the game is 1) Actually good and comes closer to realizing the "ideal" of what MMOs can be (something WoW and EQ and uh...every other MMO besides Eve) and 2) big enough so that it can be profitable enough that the company developing it thinks that it's wise to continue supporting it, that's all that matters to me.

Furthermore, I don't think anyone denies Blizzard's knack for polish and silly pop culture references that keeps the plebs lawling. The game design is atrocious, just like EQs was (and WoW's just a well polished EQ. A really, really successful EQ).

I'm just saying that EVE is not the answer to everything. The free universe, corporations and pvp is what sets it apart and to be honest I don't think thats the way the majority thinks MMOs should go. It can't get too complicated or else you'll alienate a big part of the players.

But if you only want a MMO to reach critical mass and then continue for their hardcore userbase then it's fine. But sayin EVE is where the whole genre should go is projecting your own taste on the rest of us.

For me and a lot of others WoW is the best MMO right now because it has shitloads of content, both group and solo, a GREAT fighting system, a big community and an enjoyable world. Only mmo that even comes close in Lotro but in the end you get bored and return to WoW.

Sure I would like there to be more elements to WoW but until someone figures out a way to incorporate those more complex element in a good way it can wait. A good interface and fluid gameplay is way more important then getting advanced features, hell Diablo 2 is still a damn fine online game and it's only about killing monsters and getting loot.

 

[BlueTsunami]

Im downloading High res as well, damn 7 gigs. >.>
Im down with joining the same server, for once i actually dont know anyone IRL playing an MMO im about to start.

Its going to take ridiculously long. I tried downloading the trial and I cracked and bought the damn thing.

WoW does very little very well in actuality. Makes it look neat, sure. EQ and now WoW have completely ruined the MMO space with their popularity leaving only niche games like Eve to show what MMOs can *truly* do. I've said it before and I'll say it again, If UO was significantly more popular than EQ instead of the opposite, the MMO market would be *significantly* better than what it currently is. As it is, we've got stale trash like WoW.

Here's hoping for World of Darkness Online in 2009-2010.

UO was awesome for the short while I was playing it but the PK waves were horrible. I had to hide everywhere I went, it was horrible ;_;

 

[Zedsdeadbaby]

I get a feeling this thread's going to slowly descend into EVE elitism and tittering at 'lol casual cartoony wow'.

I like WoW more. So does a hell of a lot of others.

 

[Open Source]

WoW expanded the MMO market. It didn't wedge into it. More people than ever are now playing mmorpgs because of it. There were only 2 million players at the most before WoW came to the scene, now we're seeing literally tens of million players across the MMORPG scene.

"Progress in the MMO space" refers to the evolution of gameplay and the realization of the potential of virtual worlds. In that regard, WoW's popularity is definitely one of the big causes of stagnation. How much money it is making is irrelevant in the discussion.

The reason people like EVE is because the game is about something more than just decking out your character. By playing the game, people create interesting settings, situations, and gameplay for other players. In WoW and its kind, you can't change anything except how l33t your character is, which is a total waste of the virtual world concept. The future of MMOs is dynamic ecosystems influenced, designed, and/or maintained by players, but that future gets further and further away with each EQ clone than makes money.

 

[No Means Nomad]

Too many people ignoring WoW's superior solo content, especially when it came out, was the fun part about it. The world structure, being fun to explore and well laid out, along with the ease of entry are also pretty big accomplishments, whether you like the combat or not.

Too many apologists ignoring that since release World of Warcraft, especially with Burning Crusade, is being turned into an Everquest game by newer Blizzard developers.

 

[yacobod]

i guess when you have 10+ million subscribers, you get hated on

WoW is great, there is a reason why ppl keep coming back

 

[Teknopathetic]

""Progress in the MMO space" refers to the evolution of gameplay and the realization of the potential of virtual worlds. In that regard, WoW's popularity is definitely one of the big causes of stagnation. How much money it is making is irrelevant in the discussion.

The reason people like EVE is because the game is about something more than just decking out your character. By playing the game, people create interesting settings, situations, and gameplay for other players. In WoW and its kind, you can't change anything except how l33t your character is, which is a total waste of the virtual world concept. The future of MMOs is dynamic ecosystems influenced, designed, and/or maintained by players, but that future gets further and further away with each EQ clone than makes money."


This post is so correct I almost used the quote button. Almost.

 

[fatigues_gasolini]

Im still playing Auto Assault!

 

[Atrophis]

Im not sure why people are comparing the two.

EVE does not need to be as big as WoW. No MMO does, as long as it remains profitable with the amount of players it has. WoW will be dethroned eventually, just like EQ was (people used to say it could never be done), but not for a few years yet (after 4 or 5 expansions and the game isnt newb friendly anymore).

EVE along with WoW is one of the few MMO's out there that has a constantly rising player base, even with it being as hardcore as it is. Theres interest in both types of games.

Saying that EVE is too hardcore and should change the way it works is ridiculous, there are more than enough players who want that type of game.

Likewise WoW shouldnt change the way it works. But the way it works is basically just a more polished EQ. The fact that people used to ridicule EQ for being such an antisocial game with its raids and such is quite ironic, seeing as WoW is so mainstream and has exactly the same hours long raids.

 

[lastendconductor]

http://www.southparkstudios.com/episodes/103797/

 

[Pureauthor]

Too many apologists ignoring that since release World of Warcraft, especially with Burning Crusade, is being turned into an Everquest game by newer Blizzard developers.

Waaaait a tick. I was always under the impression that WoW was never meant to be more than the ultimate refinement of the standard MMO formula, which Everquest also follows to a tee.

 

[jakershaker]

"Progress in the MMO space" refers to the evolution of gameplay and the realization of the potential of virtual worlds. In that regard, WoW's popularity is definitely one of the big causes of stagnation. How much money it is making is irrelevant in the discussion.

The reason people like EVE is because the game is about something more than just decking out your character. By playing the game, people create interesting settings, situations, and gameplay for other players. In WoW and its kind, you can't change anything except how l33t your character is, which is a total waste of the virtual world concept. The future of MMOs is dynamic ecosystems influenced, designed, and/or maintained by players, but that future gets further and further away with each EQ clone than makes money.

This is where you're wrong.

In the end, people want to play games and experience content so don't expect those kind of mmo's to vanish any time soon. The "virtual world" can be made very complex but there is a limit where the fun to be had from it starts to decline.

I'm with you on that mmos will get more dynamic and influenced by players but not in the same way as EVE does it. And you can define progress in the mmo space in diffrent ways, popularity of the genre and to expand on the "virtual world" concept.

And to be frank, whats really so diffrent about EVE and WoW. You still have to level your character(well in EVE it goes by itself over time), you still have to get money by grinding stuff or farming and gameplay wise it's still pushing skills which have cooldowns. At it's core they're really similar and the main diffrence is the user created stuff in EVE which make it extremely time consuming if you want to be a part of something that matters. In WoW you can play your own game and still reach some kind of satisfaction.

But I'm glad both exists and that EVE is doing really well. There is room for both complex social mmos and content driven eq clones now that the market has grown. I expect the eq clones to become the main force in the genre though as they are more accesible. And you still have the pure social mmos like Second Life but lets not go there

 

[Yoshichan]

:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

 

[TomServo]

Too many apologists ignoring that since release World of Warcraft, especially with Burning Crusade, is being turned into an Everquest game by newer Blizzard developers.

Tigole and Furor are the reason I quit WoW. Not releasing any new non-raid instances from Dire Maul to Burning Crusade was pretty much a giant neon "raid or quit" sign. I chose quit, after trying to pull off 40 man raids tore my small, years-old family guild apart.

As an aside, I don't understand the draw to the high population. I always hear how it has such an impact on the game, but I can't count the number of times I'd log into WoW, see no guildies online, see no PUGs forming, and log off.

You're spread so thin over dozens of servers, and on your server you're spread out between people leveling, PvP'ing, and endgame PvE. There's no coherent community in the first group, and the second and third groups are essentially self-sufficient, to the point where as a max level character you're with your guild 99% of the time. Even my friends who still play do absolutely nothing outside of their guilds asides from leveling alts.

I had a much stronger feeling of community with SWG at fraction of the population, and even in MCO which had maybe 10,000 subs total. Playing WoW felt no more "massive" than my FoF lists for Forza and Gears of War on Xbox Live.

 

[Tabris]

Sitting around for six hours while seeking a party just to go out and grind on bunnies to gain 1% of the exp you lost from your last death is not fun.

I never have that problem. I seek for a party while doing quests/missions/campaign and then when I get an invite, I average 6-10k an hour which means below level 50 you are getting a level an hour and then closer to 75, you average 12-20k which means a level around every 3-4 hours.

You can also solo 4k/hour through campaign on any job now.

 

[deadatom]

UO was awesome for the short while I was playing it but the PK waves were horrible. I had to hide everywhere I went, it was horrible ;_;

ugh.. the vocal minority.. the PK "problem" was never a problem except to those players that wanted a mindless pve game where they could kill a monster with limited ai.. the PKs add a real sense of danger and risk to going to certain places.. there was a huge freaking world in uo... and most people only went from britian to despise to covetous then to cove.. and so the pks.. naturally went there.. and when those people like youreself would run into the open and get flanked an a dungeon entrance then go OOOooOO... instead of learning how to play.. you BITCHED AND WHINED WITH THE POWER OF A MILLION SUNS.. so they felt a need to change the whole entire game into fucking carebear land.. that vocal minority didnt care about the vision that the devs had for the game..they bitched so much cuz they only cared about thier vision of what the game should be.. thus destroying it

anyways.. isnt eve online that game where that guy stole like.. half of the games money through a confidence scheme? thats epic!

 

[FLEABttn]

WoW does very little very well in actuality. Makes it look neat, sure. EQ and now WoW have completely ruined the MMO space with their popularity leaving only niche games like Eve to show what MMOs can *truly* do. I've said it before and I'll say it again, If UO was significantly more popular than EQ instead of the opposite, the MMO market would be *significantly* better than what it currently is. As it is, we've got stale trash like WoW.

Here's hoping for World of Darkness Online in 2009-2010.

If UO was significantly more popular than EQ, the MMO userbase would be 500k. You call WoW stale because you don't like it, everyone else calls UO a PKing gankfest or an awesome game ruined by Trammel that nobody wants to play anymore (and nobody does). Turns out those who want unmitigated shit down your throat PvP/a sandbox environment are a rather small minority compared to everyone else.

/shrug

Even if you don't like WoW, it's lead to an increase of people playing the genre, which has increased the numbers of subscriptions to your ideal MMO, EvE. WoW can't be all that bad, even if you hate it.