• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Football Thread 2011/12 |OT10| Silverware, promotion, survival, relegation and tears

Status
Not open for further replies.

dc89

Member
I mentioned this a few weeks back but never posted it! Really good article on how football stadiums are evolving.

_60073103_emiratesstadiumopens.jpg


One of the few delights about moving house is the chance it brings for a good clear-out. It was an opportunity I seized with relish a few months ago, and numerous fashion faux pas, kitchen implements and out-of-date guidebooks were consigned to the recycling centre.

But one ancient tome was spared, managing to find a home in the literary retirement community that is our downstairs toilet.
The 1990 Football Fans' Guide was simply too funny to throw away.
It follows a simple formula. There is a brief description of each club and their stadium. You then get some travel info, guidance on pubs, an appraisal of the programme, a guess at costs and finally 92 different ways of saying the food is awful and the toilets are the grimmest place on earth.

Football grounds - OK, some grounds - have come a long way since then. But if today's architects are to be believed, we are on the cusp of a golden era, a decade that will see venues become expressions of local pride - gothic cathedrals for a more secular age.
But these bigger, brainier buildings will also change who watches sport, and how we behave when we are there.

_60069748_beijingolympic.jpg


Plenty of people believe the old-fashioned fan has already been priced out of the market, of course, replaced by a more middle-class, less emotionally committed customer.
One counter-argument is that professional sport is now attracting more families, and those families spend more time and money at the venue.

Christopher Lee has designed more than 30 stadiums on five continents over the last two decades. His CV reads like a list of must-visit venues - Wimbledon's Centre Court, Stadium Australia, Yankee Stadium, Wembley - but perhaps the most significant has already been knocked down.

In 1992, Arsenal decided to demolish Highbury's North Bank, home to its most passionate fans, and replace it with an all-seater that would both comply with post-Hillsborough legislation and change the demographics of the crowd.

"Prior to the early '90s you were designing for an 80/20 gender split," said Lee, a senior architect at Populous.
"That changed with the North Bank. We put in fully tiled toilets, family areas and spent a lot of money on the materials. The result was a huge increase in the number of women and children at games. Now, 20 years later, you are thinking about venues flexible enough to be a 60/40 gender split for a match and then the other way around for a pop concert."

_60069754_cityofmanchesterstadium.jpg


This adaptability is central to the new thinking. It has to be: these cathedrals cannot stand empty 13 days each fortnight.
Nick Merridew runs the Europe and Middle East sports team at Arup, a design firm with offices in 35 countries.

"All venues will have to be more flexible," said Merridew, whose company worked on Beijing's 'Bird's Nest' Olympic stadium and Water Cube venue. "You will have to generate more revenue from them, so it's not just the primary sports function.

"These venues are major outlays in capital and many are empty most of the time. That will change in ways we are still exploring."
Once upon a time it was enough to give a fan a spot of concrete to stand on and a hatch to buy something hot from.

That is not good enough any more. Fans want to feel they are somewhere important.
Having spent five years trying to help Arsenal extract more revenue from Highbury, Lee and his partners designed a far more radical solution, Emirates Stadium. This was a break from the past.

"The Emirates is an example of a stadium as a civic building, the kind of architectural statement that great cities used to make with the city hall, museum or library," said Lee.
"When you talk to Arsenal's stadium manager, he is not competing for business with Spurs, he is competing with Islington High Street."

This is old hat to British sport's numerous proprietors from the United States, who have long understood that fans are consumers with finite disposable income, not just troublesome suppliers of background noise.

_59970949_stadiumreuters.jpg


But it is not only the Americans who get this, Abu Dhabi-owned Manchester City is an example of an old-fashioned football club now thinking like a provider of 21st century entertainment.
City's Etihad Stadium has recently been shortlisted for the "customer experience" category at TheStadiumBusiness Awards.

Among its innovations are the Premier League's first permanent outdoor fan zone, "City Square", and child-friendly initiatives like face painting and lowered food counters.
But perhaps the most forward-thinking ideas relate to the electronic devices most of us are attached to these days. There are now "gaming hubs" at the Etihad, and something called "City Fan Cam", a high-resolution picture of the crowd that supporters can find themselves on, tag and then share on sites like Facebook and Twitter.
Both Lee and Merridew believe mobile technology will be perhaps the single biggest change to the live sports experience.

Lee says it will not be long before radio transmitters in your ticket will help you find the quietest turnstile, shortest beer queue and nearest toilet.
And Merridew says fans "will demand instant replays, better quality images and an enhanced experience of the event through their mobile devices".
"Just look at Chelsea's goal-that-never-was against Spurs in the FA Cup semi-final. I can see fans wanting to see that and discuss it with friends," he added.

The thought of thousands of fans fiddling with their phones will probably horrify supporters of an older vintage (you only tweet when you're winning?), but these "advances" are the tiled toilets and white wine of a decade ago - they are what the modern punter wants.
The next decade should also see the most sustained period of venue construction and renovation since Archibald Leitch's heyday a century ago.
Back then, ambitious clubs called the Glaswegian master in to provide simple but elegant solutions to the problem of squeezing as many fans into their premises as possible.

Today, clubs need smarter spaces that pack 'em in - and keep 'em there.
If the early reports of Chelsea's plan for a new home at Battersea Power Station are even half true, Blues fans can look forward to more room, more restaurants, more shops and more fun - and that will be something worth tweeting about.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17977841 - yeah it's long but worth reading!
 

Garjon

Member
Fucking media suggesting managers based on very recent form. Martinez and Rodgers are both good at what they do but I foresee another manager being hired next season if we go for either.
 

Yurt

il capo silenzioso
I'm thinking of ditching Pirlo for something different. I'm avatar begging if you haven't noticed. :p



I don't get the argument that we nee a starting CB, honestly. We'll need one when Barzagli is too old, but until then, who do we bench? The obvious answer is Bonucci, but let's face facts here: we only let in 20 goals, it doesn't get much better than that. With effective squad rotation we should be fine, bringing Chiellini in from the left or Caceres on for this season definitely.

First half-season Bonucci was a disaster, 2nd half-season Bonucci was brilliant! He earned himself another season :p He's still REALLY young for a CB, so let's see how it goes with Europe and all.
 

fuenf

Member
If he is appointed, i will support him thoroughly and give him the opportunity he deserves.

However, I cannot understand the logic of sacking a manager for coming 8th in the league, and then hiring one who came 15th.

Same.

I'll direct my vociferous reaction towards FSG, not Martinez.

Why do you / Liverpool fans love Dalgish so much? He didnt get the Club into the top 4, you make fun about his signing, so why should his season be considered a success?
 

Arnie

Member
Why do you / Liverpool fans love Dalgish so much? He didnt get the Club into the top 4, you make fun about his signing, so why should his season be considered a success?

In that post you've quoted and responded to, where do I state that I 'love Dalglish so much'?

I do, for the record, but it's in no way related to my objection towards Roberto Martinez as Liverpool manager.
 

Clegg

Member
Unai Emery is leaving Valencia. Surely Liverpool must at least consider approaching him.

He's done very well with them considering they're in mountains of debt and had to sell their star players. Villa, Mata and Silva have all been sold in the last 3 season. Silva and Villa are world class and Mata isn't that far off either. He's done brilliantly considering those circumstances.
 

dc89

Member
Wilshere having another operation? The fuck are you playing at Arsenal.

He's 20 right?! I'm gonna say it now, he will always have injury issues, and as a City fan I know about young players with injury issues.

I'm looking at Michael Johnson, but saying that, drinking beer didn't help him!

And I'm not saying it out of spite. Wilshere is an exciting player and he's good to watch and really adds something to the England team.
 

elseanio

Member
Why do you / Liverpool fans love Dalgish so much? He didnt get the Club into the top 4, you make fun about his signing, so why should his season be considered a success?

What? This season was't a success. Should we sack the next manager who doesn't get top 4? The one after that? What about if they do make the top 4, then don't the year after.. gone?
 

Feorax

Member
Why do you / Liverpool fans love Dalgish so much? He didnt get the Club into the top 4, you make fun about his signing, so why should his season be considered a success?

You've missed the point. I don't disagree with Dalglish going if the league is to be our priority, which is fair.

What i don't get is why you would replace said manager with someone entirely unproven, who's only real achievement is avoiding relegation, when there are proven managers who are winners, currently unemployed, who would be a far better fit (and I dont even mean Guardiola)?

How does that make any sense to you?
 
Hodgson - 18 good months at Fulham
Rodgers - 2 very good years at Swansea
Lambert - 2 very good years at Norwich
Martinez - 2 brilliant months at Wigan

Fuck's sake
 

fuenf

Member
Because he's a legend at the club from his playing days.

But even a legend can make a bad coach. I think it's admirable that FSG gave him so much time... a Bayern coach, for example, is automatically gone if there's even the slightest chance of them missing the Champions League.
 
He's 20 right?! I'm gonna say it now, he will always have injury issues, and as a City fan I know about young players with injury issues.

I'm looking at Michael Johnson, but saying that, drinking beer didn't help him!

And I'm not saying it out of spite. Wilshere is an exciting player and he's good to watch and really adds something to the England team.
It's what happens to young players who aren't managed careful in regards to their physical condition.

Very few young players can play so many games at a young age when their bodies are going through a physical change and stay fit and healthy. Somebody like Wilshere gets alot of knocks aswell.

He needed to bulk up and grow into his body before he played a full season IMO. Hopefully he'll be alright.
 

Garjon

Member
What? This season was't a success. Should we sack the next manager who doesn't get top 4? The one after that? What about if they do make the top 4, then don't the year after.. gone?

We did. Look where that got us.

RE:dc89, Martinez's job was to keep Wigan in the Premiership and he has done that time and time again. It's difficult to say if they are really underachieving until we see another manager with the same/similar team, which hopefully won't be anytime soon.
 

Wilbur

Banned
Unai Emery is leaving Valencia. Surely Liverpool must at least consider approaching him.

He's done very well with them considering they're in mountains of debt and had to sell their star players. Villa, Mata and Silva have all been sold in the last 3 season. Silva and Villa are world class and Mata isn't that far off either. He's done brilliantly considering those circumstances.

Isn't he going to a Russian club?
 

Arnie

Member
To be fair, to some outsiders I'm sure Martinez looks like an interesting appointment. The same way Hodgson did. I don't hate Hodgson, and I wouldn't hate Martinez if he came and under delivered.

It's ultimately the fault of whoever gives them the opportunity. If someone offered me the role of Editor at the Guardian, would I take it? Yes. Would I do as good a job as the current one who's probably got 30 years of industry experience? Would I fuck.
 
Hodgson - 18 good months at Fulham
Rodgers - 2 very good years at Swansea
Lambert - 2 very good years at Norwich
Martinez - multiple2 brilliant months at Wigan

Fuck's sake

there ya go.

But even a legend can make a bad coach. I think it's admirable that FSG gave him so much time... a Bayern coach, for example, is automatically gone if there's even the slightest chance of them missing the Champions League.

You asked why they love him. And I told you. Love for a club icon has little to do with how he performed as a coach. I'd say a decade of bleeding for the team on the pitch is greater than 18 months of risky managing.
 

Dibbz

Member
Unai Emery is leaving Valencia. Surely Liverpool must at least consider approaching him.

He's done very well with them considering they're in mountains of debt and had to sell their star players. Villa, Mata and Silva have all been sold in the last 3 season. Silva and Villa are world class and Mata isn't that far off either. He's done brilliantly considering those circumstances.

Oh yes forgot about him. Has his best season at Valencia and they get rid of him lol.
 

Salvadora

Member
He's 20 right?! I'm gonna say it now, he will always have injury issues, and as a City fan I know about young players with injury issues.

And I'm not saying it out of spite. Wilshere is an exciting player and he's good to watch and really adds something to the England team.

Yeah he's 20. Been out since July 31st last year and has had so many setbacks. I swear something must be going on at Arsenal for so many of our players to be consistently out for such long periods of time. We consistently have such a huge number of injuries every season!
People posting Arsenal's starting 11 don't see the reality that a lot of those players will be out, And repeatedly.
 

fuenf

Member
You've missed the point. I don't disagree with Dalglish going if the league is to be our priority, which is fair.

What i don't get is why you would replace said manager with someone entirely unproven, who's only real achievement is avoiding relegation, when there are proven managers who are winners, currently unemployed, who would be a far better fit (and I dont even mean Guardiola)?

How does that make any sense to you?


Are okay. That was just the impression that i got from reading a few posts at RAWK and figured it would be the same with you. Sorry.

Hiring a young coach can go horribly wrong, especially at a big club (see Klinsmann). But your dream targets, guys like Klopp or Pep were also young and inexperienced when they were hired by their teams. It's just important to hire a capable guy with a vision and that he's given enough time to really transform the team. See AVB, Klinsmann both had a concept / vision but were sacrificed for short term success. Klopp on the other hand was given enough time to develop a squad.
 

Wilbur

Banned
Just googled it and apparently he's going to Spartak Moscow. I think he could have done a good job at Liverpool.

Now he gets the opportunity to manage Aiden McGeady.

Yeah I mentioned him the other day, apart from Pep would have been the strongest candidate I think.
 
Martinez is a good manager. Tactically he is sharp, he gets his team playing good football, he manages them very well and they all respect and play for him, he has signed good players and he is a very classy gentleman. I think he has had more than 2 good months with Wigan, he's done very well with them as long as he's been there IMO.

The thing is, all that doesn't immediately translate over to LFC.

Tactically he will face different challenges, have be on the offensive more and face sides who are happy to sit deeper. He will never have managed players who are 'stars' with big ego's. He'll have to sign a higher quality of player in a market which is far more competitive than the one he's been dealing in so far. And the personal demands upon him will be very very very high.

I have a feeling he can do it and step up to the plate. But it is a massive unknown because he has only done it at a very small club, that's why a step up to a more demanding club before going to this top level club would have helped his case with the sceptics.

It's interesting because I remember both he and Dave Whelan always saying the most important relationship at any football club is between the chairman and the manager, because if those two have complete faith and trust in one another, nothing can come in the way and undermine the manager, because he knows he has total power at the club. If FSG really want and trust him, and give him time and money...he should have a good chance at doing well.

The problem will be the fans who won't be convinced by him. The problem LFC have is that the fans want the club to show it's size, go after the very best and convince itself it's still a massive elite level club. The owners however seem to want to take a step back and build from the ground up slowly and steadily. It's a confusion which will have to be settled soon.
 

Mastadon

Banned
Are okay. That was just the impression that i got from reading a few posts at RAWK and figured it would be the same with you. Sorry.

Hiring a young coach can go horribly wrong, especially at a big club (see Klinsmann). But your dream targets, guys like Klopp or Pep were also young and inexperienced when they were hired by their teams. It's just important to hire a capable guy with a vision and that he's given enough time to really transform the team. See AVB, Klinsmann both had a concept / vision but were sacrificed for short term success. Klopp on the other hand was given enough time to develop a squad.

A very fair point actually.
 

fuenf

Member
You asked why they love him. And I told you. Love for a club icon has little to do with how he performed as a coach. I'd say a decade of bleeding for the team on the pitch is greater than 18 months of risky managing.

I see. Well maybe my view as a Bayern fan is a little distorted but at Bayern there's a clear distinction between (past) players and the management of the team.
 

GQman2121

Banned
You've missed the point. I don't disagree with Dalglish going if the league is to be our priority, which is fair.

What i don't get is why you would replace said manager with someone entirely unproven, who's only real achievement is avoiding relegation, when there are proven managers who are winners, currently unemployed, who would be a far better fit (and I dont even mean Guardiola)?

How does that make any sense to you?

I think the idea for guys like Martinez - and even Moyes - is that they've done what they've done with what they have. And if given more they should be able to flourish and take that next step. It's no doubt a risky play. But what business doesn't have some level of risk involved? You need a manager sooner rather than later, and above all else, a new boss should mean FSG will be more willing to spend further money on players. So by this time next week you can really start to focus on forming your squad for next season.
 
Bwahaha Dame N'Doye yelling and arguing with Claudemir even after we won the cup, still angry with a bad pass... That really wasn't that bad and N'Doye should have scored on. Highlight of the match was our central defender suddenly thinking he was Messi and decided to dribble from his own defense all the way to and through the opponents defense. Pretty bad match but we won with a mostly reserve team, now for the important part : The league.

Nearly forgot what a sexy beast Claudemir is after his drop of form this season.

iPP6WEZzA8sFG.gif
 
'Champions League qualification is imperative'

Real Madrid U-19s

Spain U-19 League (1): 1993
Spain U-19 Cup (2): 1991, 1993

Extremadura

Segunda División
Promotion (1): 1997–98

Tenerife

Segunda División (1): 2000–01

Valencia

La Liga (2): 2001–02, 2003–04
UEFA Cup (1): 2003–04

Liverpool

UEFA Champions League (1): 2004–05
FA Cup (1): 2005–06
FA Community Shield (1): 2006
UEFA Super Cup (1): 2005

Internazionale

Supercoppa Italiana (1): 2010
FIFA Club World Cup (1): 2010

Individual awards

Don Balón Award (1): 2001–02
UEFA Manager of the Year (2): 2003–04, 2004–05
FA Premier League Manager of the Month (5): November 2005, December 2005, January 2007, October 2008, March 2009

No compensation needed, experienced as fuck

And we seem to be going for Martinez, who decent though he is has proved nothing beyond getting Swansea promoted and keeping Wigan up in a way which brings its own worries
 

PowderedToast

Junior Member
What is tacky about it? I'd appreciate it if the club I supported let me know the manager might be in talks with another club.

maybe i'm misunderstanding. did liverpool ask to approach him, or has wigan simply said he's approachable? if it's the latter then i think it's tacky - liverpool may be in talks with other people already.
 

Arnie

Member
The pressure on Martinez would be incredible. Don't know why anyone would want to walk into that. Build up your CV first before heading into the hornet's nest, or you'll get stung.
 

GQman2121

Banned
maybe i'm misunderstanding. did liverpool ask to approach him, or has wigan simply said he's approachable? if it's the latter then i think it's tacky - liverpool may be in talks with other people already.

Liverpool requested permission to speak with him and Wigan announced that they are allowing it and that they will not stand in Martinez's way if he is offered the job.

This is generally how it's done in the US for all sports. I don't believe it's a rule on the books, but more so as a professional courtesy.
 

PowderedToast

Junior Member
Liverpool requested permission to speak with him and Wigan announced that they are allowing it and that they will not stand in Martinez's way if he is offered the job.

This is generally how it's done in the US for all sports. I don't believe it's a rule on the books, but more so as a professional courtesy.

oh, that's different then. my fault for taking headlines literally.
 
Liverpool fans just need to trust their owners.

I've said it a million times over in this thread before and to many Liverpool fans, but LFC just need to move into a whole different era away from their history. Not detach themselves from the past, but move away from it and accept they a whole new strategy is needed for the club to prosper once again. It must be mighty tough to do because of the weight the past has at the club...but there are so many fundamental changes needed at that club right now. A young and raw manager might not be the right way to go about it...but it might be.

It's a massive call and we aren't even 100% sure if they're going to make it yet, but if they do all you can do it support them and the manager...if it fails then I guess you can get on their back. There is really no point having a go at them now, it will achieve nothing.

Out of the all the realistic targets out there right now, I think AVB is the only better option, that's my genuine belief.

It's gonna be hilarious if Martinez keeps on referring to Fergie as "Sir Alex". That will be the death of him on Merseyside :lol


The pressure on Martinez would be incredible. Don't know why anyone would want to walk into that. Build up your CV first before heading into the hornet's nest, or you'll get stung.
Some might say it's quite admirable and a measure of the man. This is a total 50-50 and you can argue it both ways.
 

Salvadora

Member
Some great posts there Vivalaraza.
Edit: I can see why Liverpool fans would be unsure about him but I think he would be a good choice considering the options available.
 
Wait, Yaya Toure wants to move on? Other than Madrid or maybe Italy, a Barca return is the only feasible step up reputation-wise. Seems doubtful.

Pogba back for United reserves today. His last game with us?

Only FM player I recognize on the City team is Gai Assulin. We got this. :smug

Some insider (or someone pretending to be one) is saying that Utd. is trying to shove Park down our throat to agree to a low transfer fee of £10 million for Kagawa.

What are we going to do with Park?
Why you so poor, Mancs? :(

Asian player part exchange for an Asian player? I'd say it was lazy rumour-mongering, except I wouldn't be surprised to see Park leave this summer. Regardless, if push comes to shove, Fergie had better splash the cash.
 
You guys honestly thought that FSG would hire another former Liverpool Manager and Fan Favourite on the back of Kenny Dalglish's appointment and firing? Look at the backlash they're receiving now over it.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom