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Football Thread 2011/2012 | OT12 | All the clowns were offside...

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L

LanceVance

Member
Just finished watching Warrior. Didn't think it was as good as my friends made it out to be, was very over the top and unrealistic. Was some decent scenes in it and the fighting was quite intense though, I'd give it a 6/10 overall for enjoyment.
 
A

ATF487

Member
Meier said:
You left out the two best bands from the city (oasis and The Stone Roses). And Happy fucking Mondays! (amongst many others)

I'm a big fan of Embrace too.
Click to expand...

Fuck, I knew I was missing something. I love the Stone Roses. Still have to get into the Happy Mondays.

Don't like Oasis much though :p
 
V

Vivalaraza

Member
Some actual big news about Manchester United tonight. The document with regards to the Stock Exchange filing is out.

You can view it here.

Well, it's gonna be a fun evening for me :)

Early report is that the club aim to raise $100m to help pay down debt and that the company is being re-registered in the Cayman Islands. There will be more info as people delve into it.

Note - The $100m is a placeholder figure, meaning it will likely be revised when and as the interest in shares is revealed. No price per share at the moment either, looks like there is some information on voting shares though.
 
D

dc89

Member
Vivalaraza said:
Some actual big news about Manchester United tonight. The document with regards to the Stock Exchange filing is out.

You can view it here.

Well, it's gonna be a fun evening for me :)

Early report is that the club aim to raise $100m to help pay down debt and that the company is being re-registered in the Cayman Islands. There will be more info as people delve into it.

Note - The $100m is a placeholder figure, meaning it will likely be revised when and as the interest in shares is revealed. No price per share at the moment either, looks like there is some information on voting shares though.
Click to expand...

Can they use bullshit in a document like this?

"Through our 134-year heritage we have won 60 trophies, enabling us to develop what we believe is one of the world's leading brands and a global community of 659 million followers."
 
X

xintin

Member
just heard about avb officially taking over spurs. im glad for him, and hope he does well. a younger team like that will suit him well, could be an even bigger force in the pl this year.
 
V

Vivalaraza

Member
dc89 said:
Can they use bullshit in a document like this?

"Through our 134-year heritage we have won 60 trophies, enabling us to develop what we believe is one of the world's leading brands and a global community of 659 million followers."
Click to expand...
If you've been following the news about the bankers lately, bullshitting is the bare minimum ;)

This will be of particular interest to you dc!

This internet-based survey identified Manchester United as a supported team of 659 million followers and was based on 53,287 respondents from 39 countries around the world. In order to calculate our 659 million followers from the 53,287 responses, Kantar Media applied estimates and assumptions to certain factors including population size, country specific characteristics such as wealth and GDP per capita, affinity for sports and media penetration. Kantar Media then extrapolated the results to the rest of the world, representing an extrapolated adult population of 5 billion people. However, while Kantar Media believes the extrapolation methodology was robust and consistent with consumer research practices, as with all surveys, there are inherent limitations in extrapolating survey results to a larger population than those actually surveyed. As a result of these limitations, our number of followers may be significantly less or significantly more than the extrapolated survey results. Kantar Media also extrapolated survey results to account for non-internet users in certain of the 39 countries, particularly those with low internet penetration. To do so, Kantar Media had to make assumptions about the preferences and behaviors of non-internet users in those countries. These assumptions reduced the number of our followers in those countries and there is no guarantee that the assumptions we applied are accurate. Survey results also account only for claimed consumer behavior rather than actual consumer behavior and as a result, survey results may not reflect real consumer behavior with respect to football or the consumption of our content and products.
Click to expand...

659m is actually an understatement :D
 
H

Hixx

Member
It is utterly absurd that O'Neill has been SAFC manager for 8 months yet is the 12th longest serving manager in the league. Mental.
 
G

Gareth Bale

Member
http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11675/7863181/Spurs-to-seal-Gylfi-deal

Sky Sports understands former Swansea star Gylfi Sigurdsson is poised to seal his move to Tottenham in the next 24 hours. The Icelandic international is expected to be unveiled as new Spurs boss Andre Villas-Boas' first signing on Wednesday. Spurs have beaten Liverpool to the 22-year-old's signature with Brendan Rodgers keen to be reunited with the attacking midfielder having signed him last season at Swansea.

Sigurdsson enjoyed a successful spell on loan at Swansea last season and his performances have not gone unnoticed. The talented playmaker scored seven goals in 19 games for Swansea last term and was named the Premier League player of the month for March. Swansea had agreed a deal to sign Sigurdsson on a permanent basis, but Rodgers' departure to Liverpool all but saw their hopes of signing him ended.

Spurs are believed to have agreed a fee with Hoffenheim for Sigurdsson with the former Reading man also agreeing personal terms and passing a medical at White Hart Lane.
Click to expand...
 
R

rodvik

Member
dc89 said:
Can they use bullshit in a document like this?

"Through our 134-year heritage we have won 60 trophies, enabling us to develop what we believe is one of the world's leading brands and a global community of 659 million followers."
Click to expand...

Yes, this kind of sales fluff is fine.

What cannot be hedged is the numbers and the risk factors which should go on for several pages (which they do).

Fun, I will dig through it see if I find anything interesting.
 
H

Hixx

Member
Kyoufu said:
Mind blown. Is there a list somewhere?
Click to expand...

Sir Alex Ferguson -- 25 years, 240 days
Arsene Wenger-- 15 years, 276 days
David Moyes-- 10 years, 111 days
Tony Pulis-- 6 years, 19 days
Roberto Martinez-- 3 years, 18 days
Brian McDermott-- 2 years, 200 days
Roberto Mancini-- 2 years, 197 days
Nigel Adkins-- 1 year, 295 days
Alan Pardew-- 1 year, 207 days
Sam Allardyce-- 1 year, 32 days
Martin Jol-- 1 year, 26 days
MON-- 211 days
Mark Hughes-- 175 days
Roberto Di Matteo-- 121 days
Brendan Rodgers-- 32 days
Paul Lambert-- 31 days
Chris Hughton-- 26 days
Steve Clarke-- 25 days
Michael Laudrup-- 18 days
AVB-- 1 day
 
D

dc89

Member
I'll look at it like a idiot would, because that's what I am.

659m fans worldwide. Manutd.com gets 60m visits a month.

"Premier League games at our home stadium, Old Trafford, have been sold out since the 1997/98 season. In the 2010/11 season, our 29 home games were attended by over 2 million people. "

But now they are advertising season tickets for sale?

My mind is full of fuck.

How come this float has $100m as its target. Wasn't the Singapore one estimated to make ten times as much at $1bn? What actually happened with that.
 
J

Jensen

Member
dc89 said:
I'll look at it like a idiot would, because that's what I am.

659m fans worldwide. Manutd.com gets 60m visits a month.

"Premier League games at our home stadium, Old Trafford, have been sold out since the 1997/98 season. In the 2010/11 season, our 29 home games were attended by over 2 million people. "

But now they are advertising season tickets for sale?

My mind is full of fuck.
Click to expand...
I have no idea how IPO's work or the general format of a company's prospectus but even I know that you are clutching at straws.
 
V

Vivalaraza

Member
dc89 said:
I'll look at it like a idiot would, because that's what I am.

659m fans worldwide. Manutd.com gets 60m visits a month.

"Premier League games at our home stadium, Old Trafford, have been sold out since the 1997/98 season. In the 2010/11 season, our 29 home games were attended by over 2 million people. "

But now they are advertising season tickets for sale?

My mind is full of fuck.

How come this float has $100m as its target. Wasn't the Singapore one estimated to make ten times as much at $1bn? What actually happened with that.
Click to expand...
Re; the fans, paragraph I posted above explains that.

Not sure about ticket sales but the way attendances are clarified these days is suspect as it is, often it's a high % of tickets sold and usually tickets for our games are fully sold out, even though the ground isn't 100% full. Also, it could just be a grammar thing, it's true that PL games have been sold at OT...doesn't explicitly say every game. And of course...season tickets not being sold out doesn't mean the entire ground can't be filled if those tickets are given to somebody else.

On the $100m. As I mentioned in my original post, it's a placeholder, basically a very conservative estimate which will be revised when the shares actually hit the market. It's also a tactic as it hopes to flood the market with interest as there is a smaller than expected number of shares available and then the firm hopes to extent the value of shares going on sale to sweep up the extra interest...closer to what they had originally hoped for. Even so, the original $1bn estimate for the Singapore based IPO was unrealistic itself. We withdrew from Singapore because the interest wasn't there due to a high price and because we were offering non-voting shares which the Singapore SE didn't take favourably to. In that process the club wasted millions and millions of pounds.
 
D

dc89

Member
Jensen said:
I have no idea how IPO's work or the general format of a company's prospectus but even I know that you are clutching at straws.
Click to expand...

Even if United told a white lie or two I couldn't be too pissed off. After all, City will have to tell a white lie or two to meet FFP. Or bend the rules.
 
V

Vivalaraza

Member
Here are the nuggets for you dc:

The firm is now based in the Cayman Islands with a "principle executive office" in Manchester. Sigh, this is actually so sad for the club :(

And this here is the headline, the document states that;

debt may affect our ability to compete for players and coaching staff
Click to expand...

Never before has the club acknowledged this. It is of course raising funds to pay off the debt which hampers us, but it is the first and only time it has gone on record.
 
A

ATF487

Member
They are really thorough with the risk factors.

It's interesting seeing something like this, combining my coursework and football interest.

During each of the three years ended June 30, 2009, 2010 and 2011, our principal operating subsidiaries were tax residents in the United Kingdom. During the years ended June 30, 2009 and 2010, we were subject to a statutory tax rate of 28.0%, and in the year ended June 30, 2011, we were subject to a weighted statutory tax rate of 27.5%. Following our reorganization in preparation for the offering, although we are organized as a Cayman Islands corporation, we believe that we will be treated as a US domestic corporation for US federal tax purposes. As a result, we will be subject to US federal income tax (currently at a statutory rate of 35%) on our worldwide income. In addition, we will primarily be subject to US and UK tax rules in the future, whereas we have previously been subject only to UK tax rules. As a result, we will be subject to different rules regarding deductions and carry forwards of losses incurred in prior years than those applicable to us prior to our reorganization in preparation for this offering. Furthermore, because most of our subsidiaries are classified as entities disregarded from their owner for US federal income tax purposes, we will not be able to control the timing of much of our US federal income tax liability. We may also be subject to US state and local income (or franchise) taxes which are generally imposed based upon where we do business. The tax rates and the tax base upon which the tax is calculated vary by jurisdiction. Generally, state and local taxes are deductible for US federal income tax purposes. As a result, we will be liable for additional taxes in the future for which we would not have been liable in previous years. This additional tax liability could have a negative effect on our business, results of operations, financial conditions and cash flow.
Click to expand...

Boom, roasted
 
R

rodvik

Member
dc89 said:
I'll look at it like a idiot would, because that's what I am.

659m fans worldwide. Manutd.com gets 60m visits a month.

"Premier League games at our home stadium, Old Trafford, have been sold out since the 1997/98 season. In the 2010/11 season, our 29 home games were attended by over 2 million people. "

But now they are advertising season tickets for sale?

My mind is full of fuck.

How come this float has $100m as its target. Wasn't the Singapore one estimated to make ten times as much at $1bn? What actually happened with that.
Click to expand...

Its a decent filing. IMHO I would never invest in it (or most sports teams) just because I cant see the growth. Take their numbers at face value

"The global sports industry is expected to grow from $119 billion in 2011 to $145 billion by 2015"

So thats 26 Billion across all of sports. lets be super generous and say that a ~20% increase goes into football. Be generous again and assume ManU pay off debt and generally run their business very well lets say they grow 40% over the next 4 years (double what the average growth would be).

40% growth over 4 years is not really very interesting for a high risk business like football. If this was a mining company or something then maybe.
 
V

Vivalaraza

Member
Point of interest

- The Glazers will hold on to 100% of the "Class B" shares. One of these shares has 10x the voting power of the "Class A" shares on sale with no dividend to be paid.

Laughable.

This is going to be so bad for our club this summer. It's a step needed to reduce the debt but it simply lays clear the truth. That the club is in a real bad way financially and that all of the absolute bullshit Gill and Fergie have fed us about the Glazer's being good owners has been a lie.

I'm happy we're taking this necessary step...but it is a really sad and brutal summation of the clubs position.


immy said:
Surely they pay barca more?
Click to expand...
Barca get £25m.
 
K

K1LLER7

Member
Vivalaraza said:
Point of interest

- The Glazers will hold on to 100% of the "Class B" shares. One of these shares has 10x the voting power of the "Class A" shares on sale with no dividend to be paid.

Laughable.

This is going to be so bad for our club this summer. It's a step needed to reduce the debt but it simply lays clear the truth. That the club is in a real bad way financially and that all of the absolute bullshit Gill and Fergie have fed us about the Glazer's being good owners has been a lie.

I'm happy we're taking this necessary step...but it is a really sad and brutal summation of the clubs position.
Click to expand...
From what your saying, I don't see things going well. If this move doesn't go well, Maybe they'll be forced to sell sooner or later.
 
J

Jensen

Member
Vivalaraza said:
And this here is the headline, the document states that;

Never before has the club acknowledged this. It is of course raising funds to pay off the debt which hampers us, but it is the first and only time it has gone on record.
Click to expand...
Required to list that as a risk factor under the regulations, still confirms how the club has been walking on a financial tightrope the last few years.
 
V

Vivalaraza

Member
K1LLER7 said:
From what your saying, I don't see things going well. If this move doesn't go well, Maybe they'll be forced to sell sooner or later.
Click to expand...
Well, as rodvik has said, it is a good filing.

I am fighting the heartache that they've done this to our club with the business side of it.

It is difficult to say how well the IPO will go and we will only know when the shares hit the market. If we raise a good amount of money, it is a very very big positive for the club because when that debt comes down...there is going to be a mass of money which the club can use for other purposes (like buying players!). Just for example, if we pay down £200m of debt, that takes £25m off our annual interest payments automatically...that helps alot.

But yeah, it all depends on how much interest there is and at what price. I have everything crossed for this, we need it real bad.


immy said:
Do you guys sell more shirts, I would have thought barca are a much better brand.
Click to expand...
Not 100% sure on the exact sale figures but yes MUFC is said to be the largest shirt seller across the world. Also worth noting this deal was signed in 2001 with incremental increases, a ridiculous deal when you consider nobody could have predicted football would become as rich as it has over the last 10 years. There are rumours United believe they can get close to £35m/£40m a year on their next shirt deal.

Barca are the best football team in the world but no sports/football team can really compete with the "brand" that is Manchester United (apart from the NYY). It really is massive, makes a ridiculous amount of money. For example, this filing states that last year the club made £17m off mobile and media commercial income. That's more than every club in the league made off their shirt sponsorship deal, apart from Liverpool. Shirt sponsorship tends to be the biggest single deal at a club. Ridiculous. Just a shame for us it's all wasted.
 
N

near

Gold Member
Hearing rumours of Spurs having a bid for Oscar accepted. AVB was in brazil recently so I'm hoping this proves true.
 
R

rodvik

Member
Vivalaraza said:
Well, as rodvik has said, it is a good filing.

I am fighting the heartache that they've done this to our club with the business side of it.

It is difficult to say how well the IPO will go and we will only know when the shares hit the market. If we raise a good amount of money, it is a very very big positive for the club because when that debt comes down...there is going to be a mass of money which the club can use for other purposes (like buying players!). Just for example, if we pay down £200m of debt, that takes £25m off our annual interest payments automatically...that helps alot.

But yeah, it all depends on how much interest there is and at what price. I have everything crossed for this, we need it real bad.
Click to expand...

Yeah and by the way every filing has risk factors that are designed to say "You would be insane to invest in this company". They are there to avoid lawsuits afterwards and by their nature must paint a very dark picture.

My issue isnt that ManU would be a bad Sports stock , I think it would be a good one. I just think the sector is pretty unattractive from a growth perspective.

Btw some of the highlights are the growth in topline. Thats good and shows their merch sales are doing well.
 
I

immy

Banned
Vivalaraza said:
Not 100% sure on the exact sale figures but yes MUFC is said to be the largest shirt seller across the world. Also worth noting this deal was signed in 2001 with incremental increases, a ridiculous deal when you consider nobody could have predicted football would become as rich as it has over the last 10 years.

Barca are the best football team in the world but no sports team can really compete with the "brand" that is Manchester United. It really is massive, makes a ridiculous amount of money. For example, this filing states that last year the club made £17m off mobile and media commercial income. That's more than every club in the league made off their shirt sponsorship deal, apart from Liverpool. Shirt sponsorship tends to be the biggest single deal at a club. Ridiculous. Just a shame for us it's all wasted.
Click to expand...

You guys would be sooooo good if the glazers hadn't fucked you up.
 
U

Ushojax

Should probably not trust the 7-11 security cameras quite so much
near said:
Hearing rumours of Spurs having a bid for Oscar accepted. AVB was in brazil recently so I'm hoping this proves true.
Click to expand...

Oscar, Moutinho and Sandro in a 3 man midfield? I can dream....
 
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