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FRONTLINE: Losing Iraq (PBS)

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I just finished watching it because of Astro235 post in that thread.

It's a long documentary, but very well done and gives a thorough analysis of what happened from the start of the 2003 Iraq invansion till today. Holy fuck at Donald Rumsfelds' and Paul Bremmers' incompetence. Just unfuckingbelievable.

Also goes through some mistakes President Obama made such as not sending a single high level staff member or envoy to Iraq from 2011-2014.

Another thing I did not know was how severely Prime Minister Maliki targeted Sunni leaders. I knew/heard he did but he had the balls to order the arrest of the Vice President of Iraq, a Sunni, who is now under protection in Turkey along with numerous other top Sunni leaders.

Another poignant and somewhat metaphorical detail was how the Iraqi civilians could not topple Saddams' statue and a Marine tank had to come in and take it down. The American flag was used to cover Saddams' face (not a good look IMO) and then the Iraqi flag.
 
Say what you will about George W, but he was a man's man. Someone that you could have a beer with and be your J.O. buddy in a totally straight way.
 
I thought it was a good documentary, but it's really hard to compress the entire 9-year history of the war into a 1.5 hour film. There's not a lot about the events leading up to the invasion, the WMD controversy is essentially avoided, and certain key players (Zarqawi) aren't really discussed. There are other FRONTLINE documentaries on these topics however.

What I saw was the beginning of a narrative: We had the Iraq war won. But Bush, Bremer, Maliki, and Obama all made boneheaded mistakes and victory slipped from our fingers. But the documentary never really examines what it would have cost to "win." The New Iraq would've required a generation-long nation building effort -- and the truth is, neither Bush nor Obama had the political capital to convince the US public to support that.
 
There is a podcast of this available so you can listen to it while working out if you'd like.

Highly recommended. A sad history of the Iraq war. The Bush administration really had no idea what they were going to do after winning the war.
 
Sapiens said:
Say what you will about George W, but he was a man's man. Someone that you could have a beer with and be your J.O. buddy in a totally straight way.
Click to expand...

no question about that, but that doesn't make him better president than he was. He let himself be puppeted by Dick Cheney.

Frontline really do great documentaries, this is what real journalism should be
 
Kastrioti said:
Another poignant and somewhat metaphorical detail was how the Iraqi civilians could not topple Saddams' statue and a Marine tank had to come in and take it down. The American flag was used to cover Saddams' face (not a good look IMO) and then the Iraqi flag.
Click to expand...

According to another documentary, that flag was given to the marine by an Iraqi that took it from another Marine. A Marine officer demanded the US flag taken down and instead the iraqis brought a different flag, the former Iraq flag which the Marine replaced with.

But yeah the iraqis could not take down the statue themselves despite the Marines handing them hammers. So they used the crane to bring down the statue.

Anyways, that documentary is good showing how unprepared or lack of foresight the administration had. And Maliki made it worse by persecuting the Sunnis.
 
Sapiens said:
Say what you will about George W, but he was a man's man. Someone that you could have a beer with and be your J.O. buddy in a totally straight way.
Click to expand...

This sure gets brought up a lot when talking about Bush Jr. Don't really see how this is relevant to his presidency.
 
Azula said:
This sure gets brought up a lot when talking about Bush Jr. Don't really see how this is relevant to his presidency.
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W is the epitome of the guy you'd want to drink a beer with, and when people vote for who they'd rather have a beer with instead of the policy dork, don't be surprised when results are disastrous.
 
Bookmarked that page, I'm going to watch this later on. Excited to learn more about the Iraq War and how we really fucked it up.
 
Going to watch this tonight when I get home. Frontline on Netflix convinced me that they usually do pretty great stuff.

Not sure what new information I'll get, but I guess another documentary/summary is nice too.
 
FLEABttn said:
W is the epitome of the guy you'd want to drink a beer with, and when people vote for who they'd rather have a beer with instead of the policy dork, don't be surprised when results are disastrous.
Click to expand...

In that context I get bringing it up (ie. why people voted for him). But I see it brought up when discussing his actual time in office. I just find it strange. I guess it's all about context. I've just seen a lot of people bring this up in the last couple of years (and not always in the context of explaining why he got elected). Almost as if, well he was a pretty COOL guy, regardless what he did.

EDIT: I suppose it makes sense given the video though. So I'm in the wrong here. My apologies.
 
Azula said:
In that context I get bringing it up (ie. why people voted for him). But I see it brought up when discussing his actual time in office. I just find it strange. I guess it's all about context. I've just seen a lot of people bring this up in the last couple of years (and not always in the context of explaining why he got elected). Almost as if, well he was a pretty COOL guy, regardless what he did.
Click to expand...

They're being facetious.
 
This was a little light on 2013 and 2014 events, but still very informative. Hopefully, they do a follow-up soon that digs into all players in the current conflict, the formation of ISIS, and the new civil war.
 
Don't think US should go back even if it's a mess it helped create. At least not unilaterally.
 
So they bought peace for a little time by paying the insurgent out. As soon as the money dried, the problem came right back.

Thanks for the link OP
 
Sapiens said:
Say what you will about George W, but he was a man's man. Someone that you could have a beer with and be your J.O. buddy in a totally straight way.
Click to expand...

But will he let me stomp on his train set and give me some artificial crab meat when we're done?
 
Sapiens said:
Say what you will about George W, but he was a man's man. Someone that you could have a beer with and be your J.O. buddy in a totally straight way.
Click to expand...

I've found that the best way to judge a presidential candidate is the "beer test". Would I want to have a beer with this guy? If the answer is no you can be sure he's gonna be a bad president. George W Bush registered a firm "yes" for me due to his down home inflection, and manly gait.
 
This was incomplete, but it was really fantastic. A great entry into history, for sure.

They just barely scratched the surface though. No Cheney, no CIA, no Afghanistan, no Blackwater, no corporate involvement at all in this documentary, barely any mention of Iran.

In 50 years, the historical series that will come out about this time period will be utterly insane. Tie it all in with an economic collapse globally, Libyan, Egyptian and Arab uprisings across the region, increased Israeli/Palestinian tensions, and the Syrian war, and it's just crazy how much has happened over the last 14 years.
 
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