I much rather be retweeted by Lloyd Banks or Juelz Santana than Schoolboy Q
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GAF-Hop |OTX| Long Live the Watcher
- Thread starter Esch
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I much rather be retweeted by Lloyd Banks or Juelz Santana than Schoolboy Q
Enter The 36 Chambers
Member
I don't even understand twitter
CountBlack
Member
Pickles the Firecat
Banned
To be fair, Kanye did seek out the advice of noted minimalism advocate Hudson Mohawke on two tracks. The man knows nothing but restraint.
Come on dude it's not rocket science. It's by time posted in descending order.
CountBlack
Member
damn, lmao
I can't wait to see Kanye continue down this creative path in his future endeavors with Skrillex; a man who some describe as the "Arvo Pärt of bro-step".
Enter The 36 Chambers
Member
I meant I don't see the point of it
It's a pretty decent newsfeed depending on who you follow, or a place to burst your verbal diarrhea all over the place.
Maybe I don't then. On Sight has a simplistic synth riff that only switches up with the sample break. It also runs at 2:30ish minutes with Kanye spitting two short verses and repeating a stripped part of Stronger's lyrics.
New Slaves also gives me a minimalistic vibe with him mostly singing over a heavy bass.
I don't see it. Hudson may not be subtle but his shit is hot. Kanye's not gonna fuck with Skrillex. He keeps a finger on the pulse of the cutting edge. I mean, the dude's been working with Evian Christ. He knows what he's doing.
Yea... I disagree. I think both of those songs have way too many elements in them to be considered minimal. There is just generally nothing minimal about Kanye's music (or persona lol, i dont think he has it in him to make minimalist music). It has a lot of different facets, layers, and bombast to it. It's what people love him for. I never cared overmuch for pure minimalist american shit like Glass or Reich, but some of my favorite music associated with the minimal movement is ambient shit. Try some, maybe you'll enjoy. A lot of it is droney boredom but some is awesome. Throw it on, get some work done, smoke some buds, read a book.
Mika Vainio - Helium
Tangerine Dream - Phaedra
Brian Eno - Discreet Music
Biosphere - Shenzhou
Hopefully Pickles the Firecat will take a break from his regularly scheduled posting to put you on as well.
edit: I fux w/ Terry Riley tho
Net_Wrecker
Member
Ka's Peace Ahki is minimalist hip-hop, as is most of The Night's Gambit.
Yeezus is more raw and scaled back from the relative hugeness of MBDWUWHFUIEU, but it's not minimalist.
Yeezus is more raw and scaled back from the relative hugeness of MBDWUWHFUIEU, but it's not minimalist.
The rumor's been going around since forever, and Skrillex said so himself they made music. Did it get shelved, probably. But it probably happened.
Also this. Though I can't really call Ka's music minimal, because the lyrical density of it all is so huge. Minimal would be some borderline abstract spoken word type shit, Ka's wordplay and bars are deep as fuck.
Pickles the Firecat
Banned
The best part of this conversation is the DJ who ran the interlude between Kendrick and Kanye in LA played Koyaanisqatsi straight through. Was good vibes.
Esch, you aren't big on Phillip Glass? A lot of his stuff is whatever, but his focused arrangements have amazing builds.
I have to remember to come back to this when I get home, I have some stuff to post for people into minimalism and for people who are feeling what Kanye went for on New Slaves (parsed down, simpler, but way too vibrant to be minimalist). I was actually listening to The Grandfather Paradox yesterday too. Great sweep over of minimal influence in electronic production.
Esch, you aren't big on Phillip Glass? A lot of his stuff is whatever, but his focused arrangements have amazing builds.
I have to remember to come back to this when I get home, I have some stuff to post for people into minimalism and for people who are feeling what Kanye went for on New Slaves (parsed down, simpler, but way too vibrant to be minimalist). I was actually listening to The Grandfather Paradox yesterday too. Great sweep over of minimal influence in electronic production.
Love the last 2 links and the Ka song (Night's Gambit is a better example of minimalism for sure). Can't help but notice all of these minimalistic songs have quiet instrumentation compared to Kanye's approach; are there louder examples that sorta contrast what Ye is doing wrong?
Net_Wrecker
Member
That's a fair point. That production is minimal would've been a more specific way for me to word it.
'
Koyaanisqatsi is amazing. Damn i hope Des gets in on this conversation. Ummm I wouldn't say i'm not big on him. I respect them a lot, I really do. I just rarely turn to it as far as listening material goes is all.
Hmmmmm. Thats the thing about minimal though, it's rarely bombastic in nature, and bombast is what Kanye lives for.
Fripp and Eno - Evensong
La Monte Young - Raga for Ravi
Fripp and Eno - Heavenly Music Corporation (gdlk)
Mike Oldfield - Tubular Bells
Net_Wrecker
Member
Well parts of those examples veer a bit toward the ambient side of things, but even in the middle of Phaedra it picks up and i wouldn't call it "quiet," really. it's just.....minimal. Low key, repetition, slow transitions. etc.
So good.
Yo wtf, i had no idea you were into this sort of shit. Kinda weird seeing you come out of the woodwork like this.
Yep. Theres a fine balance between minimal and stuff going into the ambient/classical territory. Once you start getting @ evolving motifs a la most european 'goal' oriented music it just kinda loses minimalism a little bit. Like you can tell there are aspects of minimal that inspired a lot of clearly non minimal music, like Autechre and Aphex, but they just don't put out minimal music when you really get down to the sheet.
Here's an example of more bombastic that you could consider minimal, Boris - Flood II. Might be one of my favorite songs of all time.
Net_Wrecker
Member
I don't go for the stuff that's too ambient to the point that you're listening to deep space radiation, or, like you said, the "pure" minimalist compositions, but I love elements of a lot of it.
Basically Reich is a bit much for me to hear for long periods even though parts of it would be amazing as a movie score. (which is why Yoko Kanno stole his style for the Cowboy Bebop movie)
Net_Wrecker
Member
I just want more Hold My Liquor. Give me 1 or 2 more tracks like that on the next album, and I don't care what else he tries to do.
Heh lol, I dunno. I love dat pure ambient crack. I think it all depends on the textures and sounds for me. Like i can listen to a straight repetitive type Biosphere/Neptune Towers album but if its too actively droney or intent on being grating/buzzsawy like some chit out there then fuck it. Agreed on the more pure minimalist type compositions, some of it approaches corny music experiment levels like a John Cage
Meh. If he was really on that shit, he should be working with the pioneers and legends. Kanye doesn't want legends, he wants flavors of the month basically. Kanye's supposed interest in minimalism comes off very false to me, aside from his DONDA album covers. Everything he makes is so quite obviously, aggresively showy and bombastic and maximalist. His clothes, his music, his style, his personality.
He should just stay away from this music experiment theory shit, because he truly isn't that musically literate enough to give it justice, he's not built for it. He should stick with making music from sounds that correspond to his very clever ear, sense of populism, and emotion/soul.
PhoenixDark
Banned
Yeezus is about as minimalist as Slayer.
Lol, calling him musically illiterate to put a perspective out there is reaching, dude is renown for having an eclectic taste in music and studying it.
The entire frame of reference for this Kanye/minimalism argument is off mark. Basically there were rumours Yeezus was going to be a short, minimalist EP, which wasn't true in the slightest sense (Kanye had planned a lengthy album; hell, the album was barely anything but ideas at that point). The real approach to minimalism was with product design in DONDA which is appropriately minimalist in it's influences.
So when Yeezus came around and it was the big bombastic thing you speak of, Kanye brought Rick Rubin in the late hours to give it direction. Rubin takes a reductionist approach on the effort, and a crayon line is drawn between early, unfounded rumours and Rick Rubin's contributions, which also just happen to fall in line with DONDA's efforts. Rick (in part) is responsible for a lot of the dead air sprinkled throughout the records on the album and some drum patterns that are more spacious than Kanye has used on his other work. It's minimalistic in application; not literally a skeleton of a song. Akin to minimalistic techniques in visual art, which don't necessarily have to combine to produce something you'd categorize as minimal because it has some degree of fidelity in other respects.
Direct quote from Kanye:
West said of working with Rubin: "For him, it's really just inside of him. I'm still just a kid learning about minimalism, and he's a master of it."
EDIT: and the way Yeezus was described before Rick Rubin got to it as well, yeah you could say it ended up fairly minimal in definition with it being chopped up, segmented and juxtaposed into what it is. They made it sound like Kanye wasn't even making songs, he was just making sounds. He was in the exploratory phase befor-OH FUCK DEF JAM DEADLINE.
The Return of
Banned
Yeah. Don't Know and Suppose to be in Love are my favorite on that. I died when I first heard Don't Know
OttomanScribe
Member
Walking past my local barber I saw a Chali 2na stencil on the wall. Had to go and get a haircut there...
turns out the barber (in a suburb in the inner west of Sydney) used to cut Kool Moe Dee's hair and has done a song with Bone Thugs and another with Murs.
Apparently the Chali 2na stencil is consistently mistaken for Snoop Dogg.
Smdh.
turns out the barber (in a suburb in the inner west of Sydney) used to cut Kool Moe Dee's hair and has done a song with Bone Thugs and another with Murs.
Apparently the Chali 2na stencil is consistently mistaken for Snoop Dogg.
Smdh.
I love Gates and Starlito. Is there something in the industry that keeps southern dudes with bars from breaking out faster than people from NY/LA? I mean I feel like if they were from one of those places people would hype them up a ton. Run the Jewels is another example of this. Or is it just that the content of most of the songs keeps them off most rap radio? Also 4:30 am and MYB off his last album are hot fire if you have not heard them.
Rubin is not a master of minimalism
I am not calling Kanye illiterate, I am simply pointing out the facts of his career and musical education. He is a hip hop producer not a composer, whose work has always been about show and bombast. In order for him to make this kind of music, his understanding of theory and composition would have to drastically change from what it is now, and old dogs don't learn new tricks like that. Moreover it just doesn't gel with what we know about his personality really either.
Could I see him sampling Glass, Reich, or Eno? Sure. Fripp? He already did it with Power in a sense. But as far as composing something original and making it minimal, no I don't think that's something he can pull off well. The only/last time he did something mostly original, it was 808s and Heartbreak
I just think his overall mission to turn hip hop from the african american form of folk/pop music that it is into 'high art' is mad corny. Hip hop culture and music isn't ready enough for it, and he's either too attached to being a pop musician/not talented enough to really execute on that promise.
As testament to how difficult it is to apply musical theory to hip hop see Dr Dre. He's been studying it for a while and I don't think we've heard anything thus far from him (don't mean releasing Detox just the stuff he has produced I would say post the documentary) that shows he can make it work in mainstream hip hop. Quik said people weren't ready it's either that or it just isn't clicking into place.
Maybe Kendrick's versatility can make it work.
Maybe Kendrick's versatility can make it work.
The Artful Dodger
Member
RZA came to mind.
Controversial opinion; I think that theorydiving into 'classical' ie high european music isn't the best way to for hip hop to progress. Hip hop shouldnt be judged or created on those standards and trying to imitate them won't work out well. Id be more interested in hearing hiphop made with that african sense of polyrhythm instead.but there are elements of that in electronic music as well I suppose.
Ironically I think Hav and RZA of all the old greats have very minimalist moments which is why you see a lot of IDM dudes stan them. Hip hop production kinda started out pretty minimal at first imo. Its interesting to see the genre come full circle electronic->rap->electronic rap.
The Artful Dodger
Member
I agree Rza's style was very minimalist at first, but lately, (you see it in 8 diagrams) his interest is in more lush musical sounds and it's just not working for a variety of reasons.
spindashing
Banned
I'm proud, fam.
A good friend of mine who's been smoking since he was really young has been clean for almost a year, actually. It's real good shit that will really help for the long run.
Can we speak on this in depth? its so lame. I understand RZA wanting to give a sense of progression to his career but this insistence on triumphant circus music isnt working out for him or the Clan. It all sounds like mediocre movie soundtracks. Im not saying he should be as sparse as he was in the 90s or repeat himself like DJ Premier, but this just isnt working.
That song he helped work on in WTT was cool, but it has Kanye fingerprints all over it.
The Artful Dodger
Member
Agreed. It's really worked best when he's just exec producer and not actually as hands on as he was in previous tracks.
Kill Too Hard (Inspectah Deck and U-God featuring Masta Ace)
Blakroc - Dollaz & Sense ft. RZA & Pharoahe Monch
Those're two tracks where he obviously had an influence but it was more somebody else doing most of the production. For the Black Keys one, he came in the studio, and played a few weird chords and then they built a song around it.You can see it here
That being said it clicks really well sometimes:
Raekwon - Black Mozart Feat. RZA & Inspectah Deck
The Game ft. Rev Burke, Purple & Patron - Heart Breaker (I don't necessarily like Rev. William Burke's verse on that song but I really like the song in general, it was supposed to be on an album of Game's but he put it on a Mixtape which caused RZA to sue him, cause then he wasn't fairly compensated or something like that, I forget the details.)
There are other tracks where it goes well, but sometimes it just doesn't. You get the idea.
PhoenixDark
Banned
Kanye appreciates a variety of music, which strikes me as a positive and negative to his style. On one hand it benefits how versatile he is, on the other hand it feeds into his scatter brained, unfocused approach to music. I don't want to call this the "burden of genius" (especially in his case) but many great producers face the same problem of wanting to do too much.
With respect to Rubin people are confusing "minimalist" with a more stripped down approach. To me it's like Let It Be. Phil Spector's version is bloated as fuck, whereas McCartney wanted a more..naked sound. Hence Let It Be...Naked. From all reports, the original Yeezus was an unfocused mess. Rubin came in and made it work (outside of On Sight).
Kanye works best when he has an established force in the studio who can challenge him or focus his vision accurately (Jon Brion and Rick Rubin come to mind). When he's left to his own devices or with a less powerful personality (Mike Dean) you get Graduation at worst, College Dropout at best. Dark Fantasy is in the middle I guess.
With respect to Rubin people are confusing "minimalist" with a more stripped down approach. To me it's like Let It Be. Phil Spector's version is bloated as fuck, whereas McCartney wanted a more..naked sound. Hence Let It Be...Naked. From all reports, the original Yeezus was an unfocused mess. Rubin came in and made it work (outside of On Sight).
Kanye works best when he has an established force in the studio who can challenge him or focus his vision accurately (Jon Brion and Rick Rubin come to mind). When he's left to his own devices or with a less powerful personality (Mike Dean) you get Graduation at worst, College Dropout at best. Dark Fantasy is in the middle I guess.
The Return of
Banned
Yeah, I have heard his last few tapes. I like them a lot.
I actually think Kevin Gates is doing pretty fine. I mean dude does 20k On Albums He Gives Away For free. Can't have a more dedicated fanbase than that
Buttons talking greasy about Hov too
I hope this trend of reckless Jay bashing continues. Gonna have the gawd light people up.
I hope this trend of reckless Jay bashing continues. Gonna have the gawd light people up.
He already had 'em.
CountBlack
Member
Guys.. What if Kendrick Lamar.. is Detox?
Enter The 36 Chambers
Member
I really should quit, I'm 23 and on a pack a day for years
CountBlack
Member
You're only 23? Jeeeez, with the way you post I thought you were like mid thirties or something.
Guess Europe matures ninjas faster
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