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GAF-Hop |OTX| Long Live the Watcher
- Thread starter Esch
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I don't like the hook, beat is okay, Sean's verse is good.
The Artful Dodger
Member
It'd have been cool to use a spectrum of other writers like you said. Even throwing Hemingway up there, my guess is he'd be by DMX.
I get tired of the Hip-Hop and Shakespeare comparison sometimes. It's just a weird way to try to give legitimacy to an art-form that should be acknowledged (and is for the most part) already.
I wrote a couple papers on Rappers in college for English classes though. It was really weird sometimes when some of my professors could get down with Yeezy (One of my professors, would play Can't tell me nothing), but would completely ignore some of the stuff going on in other Rappers.
PhoenixDark
Banned
I tend to find analysis of syllables more interesting than word counts/vocabulary. Technically there are very few rappers who are better than Eminem and Nas when it comes to their broad command of syllables, specifically in relation to the variety of words used. For some nerd wankery:
http://www.rapanalysis.com/2011/03/how-to-appreciate-rap-music-3-is-nas.html
http://www.rapanalysis.com/2014/04/why-eminem-is-rap-jimi-hendrix-rap.html
To me the perfect example of this is Drake's Forever. It's such a blatant display of how pedestrian Drake, Lil Wayne, and Kanye are as rappers when compared to someone on a high level (Eminem).
Eminem's recent problem is that he can't find a way to channel technical complexity into good music. I don't even remember Canibus struggling this much, to be perfectly honest. Whereas Nas has never had a problem in this regard.
http://www.rapanalysis.com/2011/03/how-to-appreciate-rap-music-3-is-nas.html
http://www.rapanalysis.com/2014/04/why-eminem-is-rap-jimi-hendrix-rap.html
To me the perfect example of this is Drake's Forever. It's such a blatant display of how pedestrian Drake, Lil Wayne, and Kanye are as rappers when compared to someone on a high level (Eminem).
Eminem's recent problem is that he can't find a way to channel technical complexity into good music. I don't even remember Canibus struggling this much, to be perfectly honest. Whereas Nas has never had a problem in this regard.
Tokubetsu
Member
You just know PD already had this on file.
C:\Documents\RapDebatePoints\Statistics&Breakdowns
The people that would dedicate the time to writing something like that typically arent familiar w/ black writers to involve in the comparison. I dont blame them though. Just the system that taught them.
Still on that XX hype train doe
I have the original Travi$ Scott version of Sin City on repeat.
EDIT: Derp, fucking KTT
EDIT2: Thank god for KTT
Complex Shadow
Cudi Lame
I give TDE 4 years tops.
Its always funny to see the big pre mentally written arguments get taken down by some off the top bars from yours trulyYou just know PD already had this on file.
CocumentsRapDebatePointsStatistics&Breakdowns
True. It just only makes sense to evaluate things with respect to where they came from IMO. You simply can't use certain aspects of western musical ideals and theory to evaluate hip hop. Just isn't made in from that worldview.
Byakuya769
Member
I always wondered why something like this didn't exist, but I guess I wasn't bright enough to google rap analysis. Good links, and good reading.
I wish this was more than a guy with a blog though. Like if someone started a monthly magazine or something that just did technical analysis. Whooo. I'd subscribe.
PhoenixDark
Banned
Amen. It definitely itches that rap nerd spot of me in all the right ways. I enjoy a wide variety of non technical stuff and can vibe to a good Chief Keef song as easy as I can vibe to a song by The Roots, but sometimes I need to talk about things on the nerdiest, most technical level. Feels good man.
Aww yeah!!! Aesop and my boys of the Wu and CunninLicks!!!
I don't even need datasets to know I have great tastes.
Net_Wrecker
Member
That Nas analysis up there makes me sad. Dude should have more great albums
The Eminem one was similarly depressing because he still has staggering technical skill, but he just can't reel it in to make good songs anymore.
The Eminem one was similarly depressing because he still has staggering technical skill, but he just can't reel it in to make good songs anymore.
It's more important to use figures everybody knows to make it relatable. Using other Black writers would just make it a racial thing, and hip-hop is not just Black music.
The vocab analysis is really cool for what it is, I just don't really agree with the analyses. First 35,000 words for artists at varying stages of their career means you could potentially get a lot of overlap from stuff like street singles, and mixtape stuff that may/may not be the best representation of their work. It's still cool, don't get me wrong, but yeah, can't pull much from it because of the large margin of error.
Byakuya769
Member
Haha. First 35,000 (College Dropout/Late Registration).. so Kanye was never on that.
Ice ‏@OfficiallyIce 18m
This gon be on somebody mixtape. Watch. https://vine.co/v/MrV27bmM9am
Broner is a fucking clown.
This gon be on somebody mixtape. Watch. https://vine.co/v/MrV27bmM9am
Broner is a fucking clown.
Syph Medwes
Member
This is really cool
I don't know what this means. Hip hop is a form of modern black american music, and it makes more sense to compare it to things from that culture instead of an old english poet.
Obviously this analysis doesn't mean shit, I agree.
I don't agree that Maya Angelou is a part of modern hip-hop culture, or modern american music culture, which should be the only contexts for comparisons instead of stuff in other media. The Shakespeare/average person thing is only to give people an idea of what vocabulary ranges are like elsewhere, and are okay to mention, but shouldn't be on the scale.
...She is a part of modern black american culture, same as hip hop.
And if you're gonna use Shakespeare as an arbitrary comparison point of range, why not just use the dictionary?
probably because Canibus would win
The Artful Dodger
Member
If we're using modern black culture writers that academia could get down with, then Toni Morrison would probably be the best choice. Scholars love her works.
I also think using somebody like Ralph Ellison would be a great decision.
As far as non-black writers. Using people like William Faulkner, Cormac McCarthy and as I said before, Hemingway would be an interesting comparison for Hip-Hop's place in American culture. I did like how they put Moby Dick in there.
Complex Shadow
Cudi Lame
Dunno. It feels like he's just trying to make songs that appeal more towards the mainstream radio audience.That Nas analysis up there makes me sad. Dude should have more great albums
The Eminem one was similarly depressing because he still has staggering technical skill, but he just can't reel it in to make good songs anymore.
I disagree that hip-hop culture = black american culture, that's exactly another comparison you want to try to avoid because its a false generalization, even if they share a lot of components. By the same token, that's exactly why I say you should avoid trans-media comparisons. Why would you compare the vocabulary of songs, which have 3-4 repeated chorus segments to less repetitive forms of writing? Makes no sense.
Shakespeare is used as an arbitrary comparison because he is an actual person, obviously. And one that is well known and relatable at that.
The Artful Dodger
Member
Generally Shakespeare is still considered the standard. Most professors of literature are so specialized nowadays that they rarely venture outside of the topics they're teaching or writing about. So going back to Shakespeare is often used as a unifying factor, cause everyone's gotta read him as an undergrad at the very least.
At this point im more interested in how you think hip hop is not a black american culture. By all means, explain.
Macklemore changed the game.
You can consider it part of Black American culture, however it is not Black American culture. I don't think I need to explain that, generalization meter is completely off the charts if you agree with the latter. And I certainly think you can't equate the two either.
The Artful Dodger
Member
I posted the first one earlier in the thread:
When the People Cheer: How Hip-Hop Failed Black America
By Questlove
Here's the second one.
Mo Money, Mo Problems: How Hip-Hop Failed Black America, Part II
By Questlove
When the People Cheer: How Hip-Hop Failed Black America
By Questlove
Here's the second one.
Mo Money, Mo Problems: How Hip-Hop Failed Black America, Part II
By Questlove
NipplesAndToes23
Member
I guess that's good since it's been 20 years since it's release.
jakefromstatefarm
Member
This was a good read, thanks for posting.
2099? Is that the release date Shenmue 3 heads are working with now?
hashtag struggle
The Artful Dodger
Member
It's going to be a six part series. So I'll keep posting them.
jakefromstatefarm
Member
Looking forward to it. It's definitely fun to read an analytical perspective of the genre from someone within the industry, the only issue I have with it is it's a little disingenuous to place the blame of the direction of hip-hop squarely on the shoulders of mainstream artists. Decisions over what major label artists produce also take place at an executive level, and at that level decisions are made solely for the purpose of selling records. You can blame the lack of integrity among mainstream hip-hop artists just as much as you can blame the inevitable dilution that occurs within American consumer capitalism.
CountBlack
Member
Toronto Shirt, with a New York hat. Ready to bandwagon whoever wins.
I really appreciate what the writer's doing here but I don't like that he didn't catch the way Eminem is actually mimicing Jamaican patois in those lyrics and I'm far from a stan btw.
LOL at Em spoiling the shit out of The Wire like that though. I've never actually heard that song before.
EDIT: Forgot to mention I'm referring to this.
The Artful Dodger
Member
Agreed. Hopefully he goes into that. I don't know if he's necessarily blaming it or more as acknowledging the part they play in it. I guess we'll have to see where he goes with that thought in part 3.
The Return of
Banned
Toronto Shirt, with a New York hat. Ready to bandwagon whoever wins.
hahaha
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