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Game of Thrones *NO BOOK SPOILERS* |OT| Season 4 - Sundays on HBO [Read the OP]
- Thread starter Steelyuhas
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YesNOnoNOYes
Member
Is it very important for some (male?) audience that the scene is validated as not a rape by fellow viewers?
Obviously there is disagreement amongst fans.
I myself have been holding back commenting on that part of the episode. It's difficult for me to reconciliate how Jaime had rescued Brienne from the mob from taking advantage of her, and then to have aggressively put himself on his sister by his son's dead body.
Obviously there is disagreement amongst fans.
I myself have been holding back commenting on that part of the episode. It's difficult for me to reconciliate how Jaime had rescued Brienne from the mob from taking advantage of her, and then to have aggressively put himself on his sister by his son's dead body.
Intheflorsh
Banned
YesNOnoNOYes
Member
No, i dont believe he would .... Am I naive??? ;__;
And no, I dont think he's a good character. Just that we've seen some .... development? for lack of better word, towards the good side of things. Not that I only root for the good ones.
(my favourite character is littlefinger .... .__.) (i like interesting and smart people, they are my weakness)
And no, I dont think he's a good character. Just that we've seen some .... development? for lack of better word, towards the good side of things. Not that I only root for the good ones.
(my favourite character is littlefinger .... .__.) (i like interesting and smart people, they are my weakness)
He would've tried but he was clearly outmatched at the time.
Intheflorsh
Banned
A promotional video for the season. I'm guessing it's an outtake from the next episode.
Yes, no doubt about it.
That's my point. I have a pretty good memory of how show events tie together, and if we were making a case for Jaime Lannister, his character in the HBO series fails the test.
He is a character who resents his father's expectations, and lives with the constant brand of "Kingslayer". He's in love with his sister but there's no indication that he's very concerned for his children on the show. His first conversations with Joffrey and Tommen were actually in the last few episodes.
I think this is where the rape thing ceases to matter. When it comes to redeeming Jaime Lannister for what he did to the Stark family, saving Brienne was an act of selflessness that will gain him nothing.
He's a sister-screwing, whiny, and entitled man. The actor playing him is tremendous, but as the old saying goes, actions speak louder than words.
I believe a man who would let other men die to satisfy the cruel whims of an illegitimate son for which he cares nothing is not a positive force in the world.
Much of this fervor over the rape scene is about how the event is portrayed in the books (which we won't discuss here), and how casually the showrunners use rape as a storytelling device (which we can discuss here).
To me though, Jaime Lannister is the same entitled shit who's lucky he isn't dead.
He is a character who resents his father's expectations, and lives with the constant brand of "Kingslayer". He's in love with his sister but there's no indication that he's very concerned for his children on the show. His first conversations with Joffrey and Tommen were actually in the last few episodes.
I think this is where the rape thing ceases to matter. When it comes to redeeming Jaime Lannister for what he did to the Stark family, saving Brienne was an act of selflessness that will gain him nothing.
He's a sister-screwing, whiny, and entitled man. The actor playing him is tremendous, but as the old saying goes, actions speak louder than words.
I believe a man who would let other men die to satisfy the cruel whims of an illegitimate son for which he cares nothing is not a positive force in the world.
Much of this fervor over the rape scene is about how the event is portrayed in the books (which we won't discuss here), and how casually the showrunners use rape as a storytelling device (which we can discuss here).
To me though, Jaime Lannister is the same entitled shit who's lucky he isn't dead.
Stevetopsy
Member
It seemed to me like Cersei was as hesitant as she was because of where they were. I'm sure she would've rebuffed Jaime's advances anywhere lately but I think, you know, not wanting to do it right next to her sons corpse added to her fighting him off maybe more than she would've if they had been in their chambers or something. Regardless, if you want to have sex with someone and they try to stop you but you force it anyway, it's rape. Shame too, I was starting to think he was a new man after his excellent S3 arc.
Piece of shit better atleast stick up for his bro Tyrion in some way.
Piece of shit better atleast stick up for his bro Tyrion in some way.
soundscream
Member
I think that people want it to not be rape because Jaime was on what felt like a redemptive arc dating back to last season, and this brought it to a screeching halt. It's kinda hard to root for a guy who casually rapes his sister next to the corpse of their murdered son.
YesNOnoNOYes
Member
^
Speevy, whilst I grasp the majority of your message, it remains elusive to me: is it important for some (male) audience to be validated, by other viewers, that the intercourse scene was not rape? If so, why.
You said that the fervor of discussion is to do with the showrunners' intent to use rape as a story telling vehicle. But didn't they intend for it to be 'sort of' consensual?
As for your points with regards to Jaime, I can see your points. To be honest, he was never a character I felt strongly for, until the actor was cast into his name.
However, though I understand most of your perspective, would you be able to elaborate on this part: "think this is where the rape thing ceases to matter. When it comes to redeeming Jaime Lannister for what he did to the Stark family, saving Brienne was an act of selflessness that will gain him nothing."
I find it interesting, specially the latter part.
I agree with how you regard him, in most parts, but would you not say that he did show some signs of development towards the better side? Or, do you think he's through and through meh?
Speevy, whilst I grasp the majority of your message, it remains elusive to me: is it important for some (male) audience to be validated, by other viewers, that the intercourse scene was not rape? If so, why.
You said that the fervor of discussion is to do with the showrunners' intent to use rape as a story telling vehicle. But didn't they intend for it to be 'sort of' consensual?
As for your points with regards to Jaime, I can see your points. To be honest, he was never a character I felt strongly for, until the actor was cast into his name.
However, though I understand most of your perspective, would you be able to elaborate on this part: "think this is where the rape thing ceases to matter. When it comes to redeeming Jaime Lannister for what he did to the Stark family, saving Brienne was an act of selflessness that will gain him nothing."
I find it interesting, specially the latter part.
I agree with how you regard him, in most parts, but would you not say that he did show some signs of development towards the better side? Or, do you think he's through and through meh?
YesNOnoNOYes
Member
yes, pls. im so worried for tyrion ;__; i dont know who else he can turn to, with bronn denied of him, and pod in a jam as it is.
#TeamImp
Cyan, thank you for your perspective. You are right of course, there must be a lot of viewers that had been rooting for Jaime that felt that last episode was a massive step back.
I'm frankly confused as to whether X and Y person think it's rape. I've read that the director directed a consensual scene, or a rape that turned consensual, and the showrunners say it's rape, and George R.R. Martin is kinda down on it. I'd leave that subject for more educated folks.
As for Jaime Lannister, yeah, think about these things.
-Jaime feeds the Starks nothing but lies, and shows no remorse for the things he's done. He verbally tortures Catelyn, kills Stark men with reckless abandon, and uses the same tired politics that have always gotten him out of jams since the first season. He makes Brienne feel like garbage, questions her loyalty to Catelyn, and tries to kill her. He threw Bran Stark out of a window and crippled him, an event for which he has never shown the slightest remorse. There is no indication on the show that he's been a positive influence in his "nephew's" (Joffrey's) life.
All he does is talk about how bad he's had it. Daddy gave me something I never wanted. Cersei doesn't love me anymore. Oh no, they put me in chains for my part in killing Stark men.
I say the selfless act gains him nothing because he is only now starting to think about the pain he caused the Stark family. Forget Robb Stark, who was arrogant himself in thinking he could gamble with politics. He had every opportunity to make his peace with Catelyn, or to console Sansa. All he cares about is jumping back into Cersei's bed.
I think Jaime pitied Brienne once he was truly humbled. After he lost his reason to live (his hand), he put himself on the same level as this person who kept him safe from harm.
It's a pretty sad state of affairs when not letting someone get brutally raped and murdered is all it takes to make someone a good guy.
As for Jaime Lannister, yeah, think about these things.
-Jaime feeds the Starks nothing but lies, and shows no remorse for the things he's done. He verbally tortures Catelyn, kills Stark men with reckless abandon, and uses the same tired politics that have always gotten him out of jams since the first season. He makes Brienne feel like garbage, questions her loyalty to Catelyn, and tries to kill her. He threw Bran Stark out of a window and crippled him, an event for which he has never shown the slightest remorse. There is no indication on the show that he's been a positive influence in his "nephew's" (Joffrey's) life.
All he does is talk about how bad he's had it. Daddy gave me something I never wanted. Cersei doesn't love me anymore. Oh no, they put me in chains for my part in killing Stark men.
I say the selfless act gains him nothing because he is only now starting to think about the pain he caused the Stark family. Forget Robb Stark, who was arrogant himself in thinking he could gamble with politics. He had every opportunity to make his peace with Catelyn, or to console Sansa. All he cares about is jumping back into Cersei's bed.
I think Jaime pitied Brienne once he was truly humbled. After he lost his reason to live (his hand), he put himself on the same level as this person who kept him safe from harm.
It's a pretty sad state of affairs when not letting someone get brutally raped and murdered is all it takes to make someone a good guy.
Intheflorsh
Banned
Let's not forget that he did rescue Brienne from a bear, an unambiguously selfless and heroic action.
soundscream
Member
Never understood Jamie fans
They should join the winning team.
Now that's a disreputable swordsman you can get behind.
They should join the winning team.
Now that's a disreputable swordsman you can get behind.
YesNOnoNOYes
Member
Speevster, thanks :>
I am clearer on things now. Yeah, you're right, I mean, he's definitely got a long way to go to actually be a good guy.
Personally, I don't think he's on the side of good, but I think he's showing some potential. But yeah, the actor does contribute a lot to the character's likeability. It's so confusing some times, with these colours seeping into weighing whether a character's action is condoneable or not.
I am clearer on things now. Yeah, you're right, I mean, he's definitely got a long way to go to actually be a good guy.
Personally, I don't think he's on the side of good, but I think he's showing some potential. But yeah, the actor does contribute a lot to the character's likeability. It's so confusing some times, with these colours seeping into weighing whether a character's action is condoneable or not.
Poofynamanama
Banned
Nameless
Member
I'm cautiously optimistic about Jon Snow and The Wall storyline. Both feel rejuvenated through three episodes, Sam/Gilly's story not withstanding. This is largely due to the Wildlings finally taking shape as interesting, legitimately threatening villains. But you also get the sense that Jon has been changed, hardened, by his time in beyond The Wall. Which is good, since travelling north of The Wall was billed as this writ of passage among brothers of the Watch early in the series. I just pray to the old gods he won't revert back to the tepid, dough eyed, medieval Forrest Gump with a sword Johhn Snoaugh we've had to put up with past two seasons the second Igrette shows up.
But like I said I'm optimistic. Night's Watch mutineers garrisonded at Craster's Keep doing gods know what to hiswives daughters. Locke and his hunting party heading to Castle Black looking for the Stark boys and Jon's head. The return of Mance Rayder(Ciaran Hinds!) and 100,000 barbarians laying siege to The Wall. There's suddenly a lot to look forward to in the deep North. If The Mannis somehow gets his broke ass up there by the end of the season no where in Westeros will the shit have gotten more real.
But like I said I'm optimistic. Night's Watch mutineers garrisonded at Craster's Keep doing gods know what to his
why he not suicide?
Thanks for posting that. I had totally forgotten he said that.
I don't think that would count as a good clean death to him.
I think that's a big part of what made him totally lose all hope. He not only lost his hand but lost it in a way that to him wasn't noble. It's basically a constant reminder of him trying to worm his way out of a situation. I imagine if he had lost it in a duel with a worthy opponent, but still won the duel that it wouldn't have had anywhere near the effect it did.
Edit: Also I don't think it is in anyway intentional but the video poofynamanama posted has some very mild spoilers about Tyrion's trial and relatonships in it etc
Although Rory McCann, the actor who plays the hound, responding to the question "Does Joffery have any redeeming qualties?" with "Joffery? Joffery is a wee prick. Mummy's boy, a bully. He's got nice eyes" made me laugh.
I really don't think that's the case. Not anymore.
There was a rather large audience, and it would have been almost impossible for no one to notice Olenna putting a bead into Joffrey's chalice. It'd be a very risky, inelegant way to assassinate Joffrey, and it doesn't make much sense for Olenna herself to commit the act. It's also poor timing for House Tyrell. Margaery was very close to becoming a fully realized Queen, and I'm pretty sure there would have been plenty of opportunities later on to murder her husband.
The Fool gave Sansa the necklace to gain her trust - a dual purpose is possible, but unnecessary. Consider that Littlefinger was conveniently waiting nearby, prepared to receive Sansa, when it wasn't even guaranteed she'd wear the necklace to the wedding. You would think Joffrey's assassination was guaranteed by some other means, no?
Besides all that, think of how these things were/are being written into place: there is a scene showing Olenna has an eye for necklaces, Littlefinger reveals he specifically had the necklace made a few weeks ago, she takes a bead, Littlefinger brushes the necklace into a boat, and all the while Tyrion is preparing to undergo a trial.
I could be completely off-base here, but I'd be surprised if that bead didn't have some purpose down the line. It's potential evidence. It's possible the maker is traceable, or that the bead's material originates from a particular island (The Eyrie, perhaps?). Perhaps the full necklace will be found, and that bead will confirm it's connected to Sansa.
Now, did Olenna have a role in Joffrey's assassination? Very possible. I think the role of the bead is probably being misinterpreted, though.
Next episode he will throw Cersei into a bear pit, you know, just to complete the undoing of hIs character, lol.
That'd be another good deed.
I believe Cersei's reaction throughout that scene was: yes, no, no, no, yes
YesNOnoNOYes
Member
XD
you are so very bad for making me laugh at that
BAD
*frowns at you*
:>
(disclosure: my nick was copypasta from a questionnaire, i didn't know what to put as gaf nick, so when i hit control v, it was as such.)
100+ pages later, we're still discussing the (not)rape? :-\
My thoughts:
- Oberyn is shaping up to be one of the most interesting character this season. Did he actually accept Tywin's proposition (Prop Joe of Westeros) since we never actually seen them shake hands?
- Littlefinger's endgame still remains to be seen. After his "Chaos is a ladder" exchange with The Spider, I wouldn't be suprised if he's the sole mastermind of the assassination.
- What are the chances of Mance Ryder running into the Crow mutineer first before Jon Snow can get to them? Castle Black is as good as dead if that's the case!
- If Tyrion choose another trial by combat with Bronn as his champion, well..
My thoughts:
- Oberyn is shaping up to be one of the most interesting character this season. Did he actually accept Tywin's proposition (Prop Joe of Westeros) since we never actually seen them shake hands?
- Littlefinger's endgame still remains to be seen. After his "Chaos is a ladder" exchange with The Spider, I wouldn't be suprised if he's the sole mastermind of the assassination.
- What are the chances of Mance Ryder running into the Crow mutineer first before Jon Snow can get to them? Castle Black is as good as dead if that's the case!
- If Tyrion choose another trial by combat with Bronn as his champion, well..
Hory shet
I think expecting a clean arc from this show is a weird expectation.
Jamie is a deeply flawed human being (to put it mildly) that doesn't mean he has to always be evil or always be a scumbag.
Even a majorly positive character like Arya had a very creepy smirk when she got revenge on that guy in ep1.
I think Sansa is probably the most positive character still alive, and she didn't have many occasions to get her hands dirty yet.
Hell, maybe this is one step back before Jaime takes 20 steps forward. He'll never be a great guy, very few are in this show and the ones that are end up dead, but he can be a flawed character that can do great things. Maybe that scene is to remind us of that and to show it will won't be a perfect redemption arc among other things. Much like many beloved historical figures, they weren't perfect (hopefully they didn't rape their sister or paralyze a kid) but the good outweighs their bad and they're remembered for the good they gave the world. Maybe Jaime will be viewed the same away in the book Joffrey was taunting Jaime over.
Anyway, am I the only one still reading into a few of the scenes from earlier episodes? I think I'm addicted and might be reading into it too much. The scene where Tywin reforges Ned's sword while Rains of Castamere plays is followed up by The Rains of Castamere being interrupted by Joffrey in the next episode as he interrupts the singers and throws money at them disrespecting the song. To me, those two combined make me think that's hinting at something big happening. I don't know if it's just saying that money will be the Lannister's downfall (possibly talking about the Iron Bank story) or if something specifically will happen to Tywin since that song is associated with him and his family will be his downfall in particular. Then again, I also think something will happen to him from a story perspective since that will make his kids stories take off rapidly.
It just seemed odd to have that scene in the wedding and it was something I commented on right away, but I didn't notice the song playing in the first episode which I just caught tonight.
I hope nothing happens to Tywin since he's a boss. It'd be nice if Oberyn got to kill him.
Anyway, am I the only one still reading into a few of the scenes from earlier episodes? I think I'm addicted and might be reading into it too much. The scene where Tywin reforges Ned's sword while Rains of Castamere plays is followed up by The Rains of Castamere being interrupted by Joffrey in the next episode as he interrupts the singers and throws money at them disrespecting the song. To me, those two combined make me think that's hinting at something big happening. I don't know if it's just saying that money will be the Lannister's downfall (possibly talking about the Iron Bank story) or if something specifically will happen to Tywin since that song is associated with him and his family will be his downfall in particular. Then again, I also think something will happen to him from a story perspective since that will make his kids stories take off rapidly.
It just seemed odd to have that scene in the wedding and it was something I commented on right away, but I didn't notice the song playing in the first episode which I just caught tonight.
I hope nothing happens to Tywin since he's a boss. It'd be nice if Oberyn got to kill him.
BobTheFork
Member
The next episode will likely be my favorite one ever, if only to give people something else to talk about.
The Smoking Bun
Banned
But in Arya's case, her victims are very much deserving. I mean would a US soldier feel any remorse or be expected to for killing members of the SS during WW-2? And being a kid, she has a very black & white view on things hence the smirk. She killed a bad guy, why shouldn't she feel happy?
Jaime on the other hand has a bad habit of covering his ass in the most extreme ways possible regardless of whoever stands in his way. He likes Cersei, a cold harpy for some reason and will do anything for her but doesn't really care about Joffery which is understandable. On the other hand he saves Brienne for some strange reason and then acts like he's sad he did not manage to accomplish much as Kingsguard which genuinely upsets him. Getting his hand chopped off puts him at rock bottom and you think maybe he would wonder where he went wrong since he gets away scott free most of the time.
Then he forces himself on Cersei next to a corpse. It's like they tried so damn hard to avoid clichés they end up going in a nonsensical direction. Jaime's not good or bad much like people in real life. Just wish he seemed less cartoonish.
EDIT:
Wait, Jaime and Cersei are the first ones who run to Joffery. That means he cares? Then why does he have sex with Cersei in front of his corpse?
"Well my dearly beloved son is dead so he wouldn't mind." I mean it's one thing to be practical i.e. a dead body can't be offended but there's that whole moral value we tend to put on such things.
Also,
Moral Panic
Member
Sounds like bullshit to me. Got any sources for that? Cersei is a widowed woman and even in ancient texts and customs taking a woman against her will was rape and it was wrong. Furthermore extramarital consensual sex is the crime of adultery, not rape.
Nikodemos
Member
He spoke in an American accent in Blackhawk Down.
Christina Mackenzie
Member
I believe otherwise, I'm almost certain he's acting on behalf of another that would have benefited greatly if Joffrey's reign came to an end. I doubt he'd risk incurring the wrath of the Lannisters just for Sansa.
Look forward to seeing Tyrion prove his innocence and hopefully try and discover who's behind this.
I'm not directly comparing Jamie to Arya, i'm using Arya's example to say that in the show's world, it's very easy to get corrupted by the contast violence and brutality surrounding everything.
So it doesn't make sense to consider a character either good or bad, and to expect a clean cut redeeming arc.
Also, killing a person, good or bad, is usually an awful and traumatic experience.
Sometimes it's for the greater good, and sometimes it's necessary, but it never is a wonderful experience (unless you've got issues).
Or do you think people killing "the bad guys" in war, were totally excited about it? If anything desensitization sets in after a while, but that doesn't mean there aren't some mental scars, still.
Yeah, I have no idea where these characterizations are coming from. His love for Cersei makes sense in a twisted way, of course he cared about Joffrey, there is nothing extreme about the unique bond he and Brienne developed over time, he's always seemed "secretly" burdened by his reputation and his being judged a certain way regardless of the fact that he saved hundreds of thousands of lives, I feel his hand getting chopped off did result in appropriate character development, going through a hellish experience does not preclude someone from hitting a low low and the feelings that manifested in that conflicted moment with Cersei were not at all surprising . . . I think that covers it.
Generally, I'm actually pretty surprised by how people are interpreting the Jaime-Cersei sex scene. Not that some people see it as rape - that's totally understandable. But what's so bizarre/nonsensical about that moment, when you really put it in context? Yes, Jaime seemed to have changed, but that change was also coupled with brand new frustrations in relation to his battle abilities, his place in the world, his relationship with Cersei. The world he lives in is still a very dark one, and he wasn't going to suddenly be not incredibly flawed. When Cersei started kissing him, then moved away in disgust of his new hand, considering all they've gone through and the nature of their relationship, was it really that surprising things unfolded the way they did? At the very least, there was nothing cartoony about the moment.
The Smoking Bun
Banned
1. So it doesn't make sense to consider a character either good or bad, and to expect a clean cut redeeming arc.
Of course not. Turning Jaime into a boy scout is the absolute worst thing they can do. But it looks like there has been no change in the character and all the boo hoo about losing his hand and being a 40 year old nobody was irrelevant
2. Also, killing a person, good or bad, is usually an awful and traumatic experience.
Sometimes it's for the greater good, and sometimes it's necessary, but it never is a wonderful experience (unless you've got issues).
Obviously. But you can't tell me a person who has been tortured whether mentally or physically upon killing or seeing the perpetrate be killed would experience some degree of satisfaction or justice. I actually want to see Arya fall to the Dark Side and how someone manages to jolt her awake from her murder-is-fun streak... or not. Or perhaps she was happy about finally getting a pony (having it her way)
3. Or do you think people killing "the bad guys" in war, were totally excited about it? If anything desensitization sets in after a while, but that doesn't mean there aren't some mental scars, still
To be honest, many must have been gung-ho about killing the Nazi's. You can't tell me they didn't rejoice when the finally took the Reichstag n Berlin. It was some time later that the realization regarding the people they killed settled in. In the moment of killing they probably didn't care that much since they were trying to win/survive.
That's actually a good interpretation. He takes out his frustration at being rendered near-useless and never getting his due on Cersei
I said extreme with regards to saving himself. Crippling/Attempted murder of Bran so the secret of his incest doesn't get out, killing his cousin so he could escape Robb.
That's why the Brienne moment is a bit strange. Why does he care? Or is there some degree of nobility hidden inside him? Episode 4 will show which direction they take his character and going by the books, the Cersei sex scene feels out of place
If he DID crae about Joffery then why have sex in front of his corpse? Or is that the whole, "I'M FRUSTRATED and need comfort" in the heat of the moment. When someone hits a low, it has a chance of making person rethink how they approach things
Doesn't mean Jaime will start handing out candy, just that he should be more tactful and not stab people whenever he fancies it
RedBullEnergy
Member
This may not be the place, what with no spoilers etc. but maybe someone can be subtle... yes or no. Are we going to see more of Stannis? He's my fav character and his words of "being a page in someone elses history book" are starting to feel truer and truer.
He's not going to just fade into the darkness is he?
He's not going to just fade into the darkness is he?
This may not be the place, what with no spoilers etc. but maybe someone can be subtle... yes or no. Are we going to see more of Stannis? He's my fav character and his words of "being a page in someone elses history book" are starting to feel truer and truer.
He's not going to just fade into the darkness is he?
He's going places yes.
You wait what now?
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
Edit: Aw shit, it's been posted a thousand times before. WELL, IT'S STILL FUNNY.
soundscream
Member
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