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Game of Thrones *NO BOOK SPOILERS* |OT| Season 4 - Sundays on HBO [Read the OP]

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Nameless

Member
When he bursts into the room like an idiot, Dany attempts to stop him by sending Ser Jorah to calm him down. He harshly brushes Jorah away, draws a sword in a forbidden place, and then starts threatening Dany and her unborn child. But somehow it's her fault (or she's responsible that) he's dead. Okay... whatever you say.

"The next time you raise a hand to me will be the last time you have hands."

Yes, Viserys callously sold her to the Dothraki, who he saw as savages. He beat her, insulted her, he terrorized her. She gave him the courtesy of a warning once she'd had enough because he was her brother, but when he crossed that final line her response was absolutely ruthless. Such was the case with the slave witch who tricked her into trading the life of her unborn son for a shell of Khal Drogo. Such was the case with Xaro who killed her followers and stole her dragons. And such was the case with the Masters of Astapor and Meereen, who savagely slaughtered thousands of children ranging from newborns to little girls.

The Joffrey comparison was just musing how they ended up in a similar place in terms of brutality. Her due to vengeance & justice, him for due to a psychotic lust for suffering. I was careful to use words like "on paper" "context" "in a vacuum" to acknowledge their differences in character and circumstance.
 
Viserys being an idiot does not suddenly remove any responsibility from Dany for his death when she could have easily found an alternative punishment that didn't involve killing her brother.

There was no point in saving him, he couldn't restore the family name, he couldn't get anyone to fight for him. All he was going to do is tarnish the targeryan name.
 

Heshinsi

"playing" dumb? unpossible
Could you imagine what Daeny would've done to Ned if he had dared question her legitimacy of the throne? Or if she had been attacked by Arya's direwolf.

I'd say she wouldn't have been into all the senseless violence and petty revenge for minor grievances, but anyone who would've dared crossed her path would've suffered just as badly as they would've against Joffery.

The people she had killed have done some horrible things though. I don't think Dany would have done anything to Ned for simply questioning her legitimacy. Her brother hit her, threatened to kill her, pulled a sword in a place that was forbidden, and then pointed the tip of it on her pregnant belly. There was no saving him. Khal Drogo's honour would not have permitted him to allow a man who threatened his unborn child to live. You think the Dothraki would follow a Khal who let that sorta man live?

Her handmaiden betrayed her alongside the Warlocks and Xaro. Together they facilitated the killing of many of Dany's Dothraki followers including the one handmaiden she was close with. The deaths of these conspirators was deserved in my books.

The Masters of Yunkai who were hanging slaves left right and center deserved what they got too. I'm not going to shed a single tear for murderous slavers.

I do however think that no matter how much the Masters of Mereen deserved to be punished, Dany should have taken Sir Barriston's advice. Sometimes strategic necessities override moral ones. I think she's learning from that mistake too with how she rethought her plan to deal with the new slavers in Yunkai.

I really don't think comparing her with a guy like Joffrey is warranted. This was a guy who took pleasure in tormenting innocent people. Having Sansa beat and humiliated in front of the court, getting Littlefinger's whores to beat each other, ordering the execution of King Robert's bastards, filing Rose up with crossbow bolts etc, these are the acts of a deranged psychopath. These actions aren't even in the same realm of similarity as to what Dany has done to a group of people you'd be hard pressed to find sympathy for in most circles.

I'd say Dany and Stannis are more akin in their handling of "justice", and even then I'd say Stannis might be a bit more radical. This is a guy who was having people burned alive for not worshipping the same god as he did, a guy who was willing to sacrifice his own nephew in some ritual for power, who killed his own brother using a shadow spirit all because he wouldn't bend his knee to him. I'd be more concerned with Stannis than Dany, cause Stannis seems to have a much broader definition of justice than just dealing with actual villains.

I don't get why some people act as if Dany is running around killing innocent people and random folks for sport. Besides the one Master who got killed alongside his murderous compatriots, point me to the direction of a single instance of Dany having a person who was innocent punished. Besides her brother whose life was forfeit the minute he made his insults in the presence of the Khal and his followers, each person she has had killed has had the blood of innocents on their hands. What is she supposed to do with these people, enslave them? Incarcerate them by the hundreds?

Dany is being judged on a standard that is wholly alien in this world. Freeing slaves, killing slave owners, liberating people from slavery, all of this are acts that progressive in Essos. The Dothraki rape and pillage everything in sight. The Masters enslave people by the thousands, and kill people at their whims and desires. Tell me with a straight face that the common folk don't see Dany as a person much better than the latter groups.

I know I'm going to regret this rant lol :(
 
There was no point in saving him, he couldn't restore the family name, he couldn't get anyone to fight for him. All he was going to do is tarnish the targeryan name.
That does not make her not responsible which is what the discussion is about. She was capable of stopping the incident. Jorah could have easily stopped him but didn't, she could have easily made Drogo spare him but didn't. She wanted him dead for his drunken stupidity of threatening her unborn child.

I can't believe there are actually Viserys defenders.
I'm not defending Viserys, he was a disgusting human. I'm just saying that Dany didn't need to kill him and had a hand in his death.
 
Yes, she did. Otherwise he would have eventually killed her. Did you somehow miss the bit where he threatened to do that?



Who's calling her a sweetheart except you?
I'm being condescending. People who seem to gloss over Danny's actions here really make for a good head scratcher. Nameless seems to be the only one so far that has Danny as one of their favorite characters and isn't objective at all of her actions/personality.
 

Nameless

Member
No, it isn't. His decision to have Ned killed caused the war with the North and so he is responsible for every single death in that war.

I said directly responsible, as in killing or ordering the killing of someone.

Robb started the war to free his father, it became about avenging Ned later. Also 3/5ths of the kings in The War or the Five Kings entered in to the fray due to Joffrey having an illegitimate claim to the Throne. Once Littlefinger led Ned to the truth about Joffrey war was inevitable.
 

Massa

Member
No, it was a pretty evil act. There was a deal in place and he broke it. The only reason he was up there was because he was told he'd be sent to the wall and his family would be spared. It was a decidedly dick move.

Joffrey didn't make the deal, and probably didn't even know about it. From his perspective Ned Stark was a traitor that tried to usurp his throne.
 

ASIS

Member
She's such a nice person allowing her husband to kill her brother in a horrifying manner. Also her brother being a psycho dick completely absolves her of not giving a shit if he has one of the most brutal deaths in the series as she watches him only a few feet away.

Danny really is a sweetheart.

If he was the dragon he wouldn't have died. That was the entire point of that scene.
 

tmdorsey

Member
Viserys was a joke, you really think he'd eventually be able to kill Dany? He said a lot of stuff that he couldn't back up.

How is does she know he won't back it up? Like was said early, Viserys sealed his fate by disrespecting the cermony and theatening her child in front of Drogo. His death was out of her hands and personally after what he put her through and the way he treated her what reason would she have to stand up for him?

As for her dealing with the slavers, she young and learning on the job. I think she showed some growth by listening to Jorah, but it's also tough cause it's apparent that showing too much lienency will get you killed or taken advantage of pretty quickly.
 

Heshinsi

"playing" dumb? unpossible
So it's ok to kill your brother as long as he doesn't get burned by fire like yourself then? Well, now it really makes sense.

Jesus, she didn't kill her brother. If you don't think Khal Drogo wouldn't have sent this idiot to the afterlife after pulling the shit he did in front of everyone, then I don't think you understand Dothraki society at all. When he pulled that sword out after Jorah point blank tells him "pulling out your sword here is forbidden..they will kill you for doing so", there was nothing Dany could have done to save him. The Khal either kills him, or he comes across looking weak to his people. These are Horse Lords man. You don't pull a sword in forbidden place, threaten the Khal's wife and unborn kid, and then expect your sister to bail you out. Khal Drogo ripped Mago's throat out for questioning why he was listening to his wife. What do you think happens to the guy who threatens to kill said wife and child?

The Dothraki are a very cut throat society. The majority of Dany's Khalsar abandoned her the minute Khal Drogo couldn't ride his horse anymore. They even had that one saying, "a Khal that cannot ride cannot lead." I'm willing to bet that a Khal who shows mercy to a man who threatens his family would equally be seen as weak and unfit to lead.
 

Curufinwe

Member
Of course he did, with his sister watching and being totally fine as he gets burned alive in front of her is pretty fucked up. It's pretty amazing that so many people seem to gloss over it as it's ok.

It's pretty amazing that you keep forgetting he threatened to kill her and her child moments before. Why is she supposed to have sympathy for a stupid, arrogant monster who cut his own throat?
 
Jesus, she didn't kill her brother. If you don't think Khal Drogo wouldn't have sent this idiot to the afterlife after pulling the shit he did in front of everyone, then I don't think you understand Dothraki society at all. When he pulled that sword out after Jorah point blank tells him "pulling out your sword here is forbidden..they will kill you for doing so", there was nothing Dany could have done to save him. The Khal either kills him, or he comes across looking weak to his people. These are Horse Lords man. You don't pull a sword in forbidden place, threaten the Khal's wife and unborn kid, and then expect your sister to bail you out. Khal Drogo ripped Mago's throat out for questioning why he was listening to his wife. What do you think happens to the guy who threatens to kill said wife and child?

The Dothraki are a very cut throat society. The majority of Dany's Khalsar abandoned her the minute Khal Drogo couldn't ride his horse anymore. They even had that one saying, "a Khal that cannot ride cannot lead." I'm willing to bet that a Khal who shows mercy to a man who threatens his family would equally be seen as weak and unfit to lead.

Yea, Legend must be trolling. It was very clear in the scene that he died because he broke a sacred custom and threatened the Khal's wife and child. As for Danerys not caring, I don't blame her considering the abuse she endured and that comment about letting the entire Khalissar rape her (and their horses). Plus the whole, 'I'm going to kill you' thing.
 

ASIS

Member
Warning, wall of text incoming. this is probably my longest post in this forum so I tried to put sections to make it easier :/

So it's ok to kill your brother as long as he doesn't get burned by fire like yourself then? Well, now it really makes sense.

I didn't say that at all. I was talking about the "gruesome death" part. That was the final test that she willing to give him to see if he truly has it in him to take the iron throne. And he failed.

Death and murder is always a complex subject to decide if its right or wrong, it cannot be done in one single thought. So I think we all need to take a step back and look at things from a holistic point of view.

The situation

First, we need to look at the backstory of these three characters. Viserys has been dreaming of getting back his kingdom since he was a little child. Not only did he want it, it was expected of him. And he was mocked his entire life for something he had no control over. He also had his sister, who was also supposed to be his wife, under his responsibility. They obviously cared for each other, but he treated Dany as an object at his disposal. Viserys found a way to reclaim his kingdom by marrying his sister to the barbaric tribe leader, Drogo, and get his army in return. Despite Dany's discontentment, the marriage was done anyway. What's worse is that her brother basically told her that he'll sell her dignity effortlessly if that's what it took.

The Dothraki is a tribe with very special traditions and culture. Dany manages to deal with her position very quickly, and she even embraced it by accepting her role as the Khalessi of that tribe. She was no longer under her brother's protection, and most certainly not his toy anymore, Visarys however did not see that. He still saw her as his property, and belittled her in every single opportunity that fell upon him. He did not respect her tribe's traditions at all, and he saw himself as a superior to all of them without ever earning their love, respect, or fear. Dany also discovers that she cannot be burned, a trait that she believed was a sign of having true power to get the iron throne back.

Fast forward to the events that took place. Visarys enters the a sacred place of the Dothraki, unsheathed his sword (a blasphemous act for the Dothraki tribe), humilated their traditions, and threatened to kill their Khalessi and the Khal's unborn child. He did this to remind Drogo of his share of the bargain. I give you my sister, you give me the throne, or else. Drogo had had none of that, and answers his threat with a gruesome death. Dany all the while did absolutely nothing to resolve the matter (outside of a few feeble attempts at the beginning), she even held Drogo's hand while she literally translated his words to her brother. And finally she didn't even flinch when he had melting gold on his head.

I think this about covers the events and backstory quite objectively, if you have any objections please raise them. But now we need to look at the overall situation. The very first question we need to ask is "did Viserys need to be punished, under any form?". I think we can all agree that the answer here is yes, but honestly if one objects to this point then please raise it. It will lead to very interesting discussion.

Dany's Involvement

The next point we need to address is Dany's involvement in the matter. Afterall, she was only a passive observer of the events. Did she truly have a choice? Personally, I think the answer to that is yes, but her options nonetheless remain limited. The way I see it, she had three options. 1) Do exactly what she did in the show; Nothing. 2) Warn him of Drogo's intentions. And 3) Attempting to persuade her husband to seek other forms of punishment outside of death. There are no other options that could be deemed ethical if you believe Viserys did deserve punishment.

I think option 2 is rather fruitless, even if she warned him of what's going to happen to him. It wouldn't have changed a single thing, furthermore it wouldn't have calmed viserys down and he probably would have killed Dany if he learned the truth. Nonetheless it would have been more honorable than doing nothing since, as the other poster said, it was trickery (though not in the scale of Joffery, but that is another debate for another time). This leaves the third option, which would have been the ideal solution if we can answer the crucial question. Did Viserys deserve death?

Discussion on death penalty

Before jumping to answer "yes" or "no",here are different points of view that need to be examined. First is we need to look at the consequences of his death. Basically it's the concept of the greater good. Did his death, at that time, benefit people? This point is very much open for discussion, but I think the answer is yes to that one. Khalessi earned her husband's love and her security for both herself and her unborn child at the time. Viserys has been punished before, as was he warned, and it didn't change his behavior at all. An alternative solution would obviously to exile or imprison him. But these wouldn't have respected the traditions of the dothraki, traditions he was very well aware of but didn't even care to understand. Even if they somehow decided to keep him away from his sister. would that be in Dany's best interest? To me, someone who threatens a mother and her son at point blank is definitely a reason to kill. Why would she let him live?

This leads to the second point of the discussion. The first part was about the practicality of his death. But it doesn't talk about his rights or his value as a human being.
Basically, the right to live without having to earn it.One could say that killing is wrong under any circumstances no matter how brutal the situation is. But if one uses this argument then as their moral compass then other considerations need to be taken as well. Having zero tolerance to unethical behavior then even actions like lying to protect your friend from being murdered, or stealing food because of starvation are also seen as unethical practices. This is why I don't think this moral code can be applied because it simply removes reality from the equation. Talking about rights, Viserys also put the life of others at risk as well. Who's rights supersede the other? Personally I think this is the only argument which can be used to say killing him was wrong. If you have any objections. Please say so.

Regardless of your own conclusions of whether or not his death was warranted. I would like you to assume that it was for the time being, because there is one final point I would like to discuss, and that is the method of murder

Method of Death

FINALLY going back to our debate about the way they killed him. Was it justified? Were there other, better means to kill that son of a bitch? Personally, I think not. The melting pot provided the final test for him to see if he truly is powerful enough to take the kingdom. Of course, logically thinking that is completely insane. But Dany's visions came true at the end. If he died any other way she would never know for sure.


I will never, ever write a post this big again, I guarantee you that. But I hope this shows you how I arrived to my conclusion.
 
Jesus, she didn't kill her brother. If you don't think Khal Drogo wouldn't have sent this idiot to the afterlife after pulling the shit he did in front of everyone, then I don't think you understand Dothraki society at all. When he pulled that sword out after Jorah point blank tells him "pulling out your sword here is forbidden..they will kill you for doing so", there was nothing Dany could have done to save him. The Khal either kills him, or he comes across looking weak to his people. These are Horse Lords man. You don't pull a sword in forbidden place, threaten the Khal's wife and unborn kid, and then expect your sister to bail you out. Khal Drogo ripped Mago's throat out for questioning why he was listening to his wife. What do you think happens to the guy who threatens to kill said wife and child?

The Dothraki are a very cut throat society. The majority of Dany's Khalsar abandoned her the minute Khal Drogo couldn't ride his horse anymore. They even had that one saying, "a Khal that cannot ride cannot lead." I'm willing to bet that a Khal who shows mercy to a man who threatens his family would equally be seen as weak and unfit to lead.
He may have killed him even if she pleaded for his life, but the look she gave her husband was clearly agreeing with him to kill his brother. Not to mention not being phazed at all as Drogo burns him alive right in front of her. She was even mocking her dead brother at the end saying he's no real dragon. How you keep running back to Drogo only and see it one way is really amazing considering what was happening. It might explain why you're such a fan of her, you two seem to look at things in a similar manner. :D

She's just as ruthless as Joffrey, the difference is Joffrey enjoys torturing people for his pleasure while she does it when she thinks it's injustice.

It's pretty amazing that you keep forgetting he threatened to kill her and her child moments before. Why is she supposed to have sympathy for a stupid, arrogant monster who cut his own throat?
He's scum and deserved to die. I don't think his sister not giving a shit and watching him burn in front of her is exactly righteous, as many times as you guys want to repeat it. Stannis isn't exactly a saint either considering he willingly gave the order to kill his brother for the throne as well, but this conversation started with her capabilities being naive, dealing in absolutes and in some ways being compared to Joffrey when discounting him being a little cunt who enjoys torturing people part.

This is as someone else said it, it's ok that she's ruthless to bad people in the show even if it's chillingly cold to many people. However, wasn't the topic of this all to show that she is ruthless and not that her brother deserved to die/was an asshole defense mechanism that Danny's council here seems to be running to (and only that)?

However saying that, Jorah's common sense speech last episode of changing her mind was the first step of her being less absolute in these manners. I'm really curious to see if she will steer more this way as she grows, or something bad happens with this plan, and she runs back to turning into a full blown Sith due to repercussions of its aftermath.
 
How is does she know he won't back it up? Like was said early, Viserys sealed his fate by disrespecting the cermony and theatening her child in front of Drogo. His death was out of her hands and personally after what he put her through and the way he treated her what reason would she have to stand up for him?
Because he literally has nothing over her. She's the wife of the leader, whatever support he thought he had with Jorah he lost on the day of the wedding. She knew this at this point. So did he, which is why he drunk himself stupid. What exactly can he do? Sneak into the camp and slit her throat? How would he be able to even pull that off?

I don't get why people are trying to remove any responsibility for his death from Dany. It was an awesome scene because she allowed it to happen, showed no mercy and finally got vengeance.
 

Morrigan Stark

Arrogant Smirk
I don't think anyone denied she has some ruthlessness in her. Saying she's like Joffrey is what we objected to. Joffrey is ruthless, Dany is ruthless, therefore they're alike? Well, er, no. Dany is also compassionate. Robb Stark is ruthless too. I dare say Dany is closer to Robb than Joffrey.
 
That does not make her not responsible which is what the discussion is about. She was capable of stopping the incident. Jorah could have easily stopped him but didn't, she could have easily made Drogo spare him but didn't. She wanted him dead for his drunken stupidity of threatening her unborn child.


I'm not defending Viserys, he was a disgusting human. I'm just saying that Dany didn't need to kill him and had a hand in his death.

She didn't kill him... just because she chose to not save him doesn't mean she killed him. If you wanna argue that then every doctor on this planet is a murderer.

What the fuck man.... in no way is he entitled to dany doing everything in her power to save him.
 
Warning, wall of text incoming. this is probably my longest post in this forum so I tried to put sections to make it easier :/



I didn't say that at all. I was talking about the "gruesome death" part. That was the final test that she willing to give him to see if he truly has it in him to take the iron throne. And he failed.

Death and murder is always a complex subject to decide if its right or wrong, it cannot be done in one single thought. So I think we all need to take a step back and look at things from a holistic point of view.

The situation

First, we need to look at the backstory of these three characters. Viserys has been dreaming of getting back his kingdom since he was a little child. Not only did he want it, it was expected of him. And he was mocked his entire life for something he had no control over. He also had his sister, who was also supposed to be his wife, under his responsibility. They obviously cared for each other, but he treated Dany as an object at his disposal. Viserys found a way to reclaim his kingdom by marrying his sister to the barbaric tribe leader, Drogo, and get his army in return. Despite Dany's discontentment, the marriage was done anyway. What's worse is that her brother basically told her that he'll sell her dignity effortlessly if that's what it took.

The Dothraki is a tribe with very special traditions and culture. Dany manages to deal with her position very quickly, and she even embraced it by accepting her role as the Khalessi of that tribe. She was no longer under her brother's protection, and most certainly not his toy anymore, Visarys however did not see that. He still saw her as his property, and belittled her in every single opportunity that fell upon him. He did not respect her tribe's traditions at all, and he saw himself as a superior to all of them without ever earning their love, respect, or fear. Dany also discovers that she cannot be burned, a trait that she believed was a sign of having true power to get the iron throne back.

Fast forward to the events that took place. Visarys enters the a sacred place of the Dothraki, unsheathed his sword (a blasphemous act for the Dothraki tribe), humilated their traditions, and threatened to kill their Khalessi and the Khal's unborn child. He did this to remind Drogo of his share of the bargain. I give you my sister, you give me the throne, or else. Drogo had had none of that, and answers his threat with a gruesome death. Dany all the while did absolutely nothing to resolve the matter (outside of a few feeble attempts at the beginning), she even held Drogo's hand while she literally translated his words to her brother. And finally she didn't even flinch when he had melting gold on his head.

I think this about covers the events and backstory quite objectively, if you have any objections please raise them. But now we need to look at the overall situation. The very first question we need to ask is "did Viserys need to be punished, under any form?". I think we can all agree that the answer here is yes, but honestly if one objects to this point then please raise it. It will lead to very interesting discussion.

Dany's Involvement

The next point we need to address is Dany's involvement in the matter. Afterall, she was only a passive observer of the events. Did she truly have a choice? Personally, I think the answer to that is yes, but her options nonetheless remain limited. The way I see it, she had three options. 1) Do exactly what she did in the show; Nothing. 2) Warn him of Drogo's intentions. And 3) Attempting to persuade her husband to seek other forms of punishment outside of death. There are no other options that could be deemed ethical if you believe Viserys did deserve punishment.

I think option 2 is rather fruitless, even if she warned him of what's going to happen to him. It wouldn't have changed a single thing, furthermore it wouldn't have calmed viserys down and he probably would have killed Dany if he learned the truth. Nonetheless it would have been more honorable than doing nothing since, as the other poster said, it was trickery (though not in the scale of Joffery, but that is another debate for another time). This leaves the third option, which would have been the ideal solution if we can answer the crucial question. Did Viserys deserve death?

Discussion on death penalty

Before jumping to answer "yes" or "no",here are different points of view that need to be examined. First is we need to look at the consequences of his death. Basically it's the concept of the greater good. Did his death, at that time, benefit people? This point is very much open for discussion, but I think the answer is yes to that one. Khalessi earned her husband's love and her security for both herself and her unborn child at the time. Viserys has been punished before, as was he warned, and it didn't change his behavior at all. An alternative solution would obviously to exile or imprison him. But these wouldn't have respected the traditions of the dothraki, traditions he was very well aware of but didn't even care to understand. Even if they somehow decided to keep him away from his sister. would that be in Dany's best interest? To me, someone who threatens a mother and her son at point blank is definitely a reason to kill. Why would she let him live?

This leads to the second point of the discussion. The first part was about the practicality of his death. But it doesn't talk about his rights or his value as a human being.
Basically, the right to live without having to earn it.One could say that killing is wrong under any circumstances no matter how brutal the situation is. But if one uses this argument then as their moral compass then other considerations need to be taken as well. Having zero tolerance to unethical behavior then even actions like lying to protect your friend from being murdered, or stealing food because of starvation are also seen as unethical practices. This is why I don't think this moral code can be applied because it simply removes reality from the equation. Talking about rights, Viserys also put the life of others at risk as well. Who's rights supersede the other? Personally I think this is the only argument which can be used to say killing him was wrong. If you have any objections. Please say so.

Regardless of your own conclusions of whether or not his death was warranted. I would like you to assume that it was for the time being, because there is one final point I would like to discuss, and that is the method of murder

Method of Death

FINALLY going back to our debate about the way they killed him. Was it justified? Were there other, better means to kill that son of a bitch? Personally, I think not. The melting pot provided the final test for him to see if he truly is powerful enough to take the kingdom. Of course, logically thinking that is completely insane. But Dany's visions came true at the end. If he died any other way she would never know for sure.


I will never, ever write a post this big again, I guarantee you that. But I hope this shows you how I arrived to my conclusion.
At this point even if we were to look past option 2 or 3 with her telling him what her husband was going to do or warn him of what will happen or try to stop Drogo, it didn't look like she wanted to. She gave the seal of approval to kill him and had zero remorse of her brother being burned in front of her. The fact that you are somehow trying to justify this as her not being a cold, heartless bitch in this account despite him deserving it is clutching at straws. I've never said that he doesn't deserve to die or that Drogo shouldn't have owned him, I'm looking at it from her perspective, since well.. we are talking about her.

Also can we look at this .. he went in hammered. What moron would kill her in front of them and expect to run away (completely alone and in their lands which they know) alive? Can someone explain how this would have any logical sense at all? He was being a complete prick as he is and trying to threaten her with her life since this is all he has now, petty threats. You honestly believe he would kill her in front of the Dothraki? I could see him doing it in other circumstances in the shadows but that was all show, thus the alcohol (aka the balls) to put that show that he did. Saying that, doing it in front of the Dothraki was really, really stupid. However I ask this looking at Danny's POV.

The fact that she's using part of the reason whether he should die or not because he is no real dragon shows the absolute batshit crazy side of her Targaryen blood. It is rather weird people don't seem to mind this.

Morrigan Targaryen said:
I don't think anyone denied she has some ruthlessness in her. Saying she's like Joffrey is what we objected to. Joffrey is ruthless, Dany is ruthless, therefore they're alike? Well, er, no. Dany is also compassionate. Robb Stark is ruthless too. I dare say Dany is closer to Robb than Joffrey.
Danny would have slayed the entire Lannister army after beating Jaime's army (other than Jaime) while Robb kept them all alive even though it was hurting his army on top of pissing off every single general he had.
 
She didn't kill him... just because she chose to not save him doesn't mean she killed him. If you wanna argue that then every doctor on this planet is a murderer.

What the fuck man.... in no way is he entitled to dany doing everything in her power to save him.
How is a doctor being incapable of saving someone even remotely the same situation?

Where did I say he's entitled to her saving him? What are you even talking about?
 

ASIS

Member
At this point even if we were to look past option 2 or 3 with her telling him what her husband was going to do or warn him of what will happen or try to stop Drogo, it didn't look like she wanted to. She gave the seal of approval to kill him and had zero remorse of her brother being burned in front of her. The fact that you are somehow trying to justify this as her not being a cold, heartless bitch in this account despite him deserving it is clutching at straws. I've never said that he doesn't deserve to die or that Drogo shouldn't have owned him, I'm looking at it from her perspective, since well.. we are talking about her.

Also can we look at this .. he went in hammered. What moron would kill her in front of them and expect to run away (completely alone and in their lands which they know) alive? Can someone explain how this would have any logical sense at all? He was being a complete prick as he is and trying to threaten her with her life since this is all he has now, petty threats. You honestly believe he would kill her in front of the Dothraki? I could see him doing it in other circumstances in the shadows but that was all show, thus the alcohol (aka the balls) to put that show that he did. Saying that, doing it in front of the Dothraki was really, really stupid. However I ask this looking at Danny's POV.

The fact that she's using part of the reason whether he should die or not because he is no real dragon shows the absolute batshit crazy side of her Targaryen blood. It is rather weird people don't seem to mind this.
You said it yourself. We are looking at it from her perspective. She was beaten, insulted, and robbed of her dignity because of this man. Is it any wonder that she saw no remorse in the decision that she made? What's more. Is there any tension in her belief that would have given her cognitive dissonance? I gave multiple means of countering her philosophy. But you said it was cold and heartless yet you gave no reason why you believe that. You say that he deserves to die, but what she did was not justice? How is that so? This is what I want to know. Regarding his behavior. The fact that he was drunk makes him even more unpredictable. He may not have thought he would go out alive if he killed her. But there was a very good chance she wouldn't have made the night either. His threat was definitely not empty.

And finally, of course it's batshit insane what she was thinking. But she also went into the fire herself and got out unharmed. She knows Targaryen blood is different, but she proved that. This is what separates her from mad targaryens who thought fire ran in their blood when it actually didn't. That's why I think it's justified what she did. If she went into the fire and burned to crisp then yes, she would have been completely loco.
 

Pandaman

Everything is moe to me
She didn't kill him... just because she chose to not save him doesn't mean she killed him. If you wanna argue that then every doctor on this planet is a murderer.

What the fuck man.... in no way is he entitled to dany doing everything in her power to save him.
uh... Doctor's cannot refuse to help someone if they're able to.
 

Verano

Reads Ace as Lace. May God have mercy on their soul
well shit GoT-GAF I recently bought all 3 seasons just to see why was everyone raving about GoT. Im loving it and hating it. Plays with my emotions too much.
 

Nameless

Member
Viserys faced no punishment when he struck Daeny before, or when he was carrying a sword in Vaes Dothrak previously, which Jorah warned against. Daeny was Khaleesi, the Queen, and held enough sway with the Khal that he signed off on his Khalasar no longer being able to take women with their spoils. To say there's no way he wouldn't have agreed to exile Viserys had Daeny listened to her brother's desperate pleas and intervened on his behalf is a little presumptuous.
 
well shit GoT-GAF I recently bought all 3 seasons just to see why was everyone raving about GoT. Saw season 1 which the ending pissed me off, season 2 was more mellow and added more plot/character build-up/etc. then season 3 gets bit more serious and dramatic. anyways, just saw ep 9 which has me currently raging nonstop....like wtf man!!!! yeeziz!! I've never gotten this emotionally entangled since watching mexican soap operas/novelas...few years ago...but what happen in that episode just had me floored...and raging...
can't believe this is happening...console me GoT-GAF....tell me its gonna get good in season 4
:/

What are you doing here, spoilers everywhere GET OUT WHILE YOU CAN!!!!!!
 

Heshinsi

"playing" dumb? unpossible
I don't think anyone denied she has some ruthlessness in her. Saying she's like Joffrey is what we objected to. Joffrey is ruthless, Dany is ruthless, therefore they're alike? Well, er, no. Dany is also compassionate. Robb Stark is ruthless too. I dare say Dany is closer to Robb than Joffrey.

Funny how no one ever brings up Robb executing Karstark for killing the Lannister boys as ruthless. Dumb? Yes they'll call that out. But being ruthless for killing murderers and slavers is Dany's cross to bear.

Ned Stark: chops dude's heads off for running from the wall, regardless of the reason? Nah man, that's tradition. Once you take the black, you don't come back.

Robb: intentionally sacrifices 10,000 of his own men to secure victory against the Lannisters? Yo, the Young Wolf is like a Napoleon out on the field, damn!...AAAWWOOOO!

Stannis point #1: kills his own brother through an adulterous ritual? He did warn him though...did he not warn him? He told him, "bend the knee or I will crush you." Stannis in fact should be commended for keeping his promises. That's the stuff kings are made from.

Stannis point #2: burns "heretics" alive to appease the Red Women, and has no qualms killing his own flesh and blood? It takes a guy like Stannis to realise that the road to the Iron Throne is a tough one. A lot of hard and difficult decisions are going to have to be made. In fact I don't think I could support anyone but a man willing to make these tough decisions and going through with them. Stannis is the true King of Westeros.

Jaime Lannister: throws a kid out a window, commits incest, kills his own cousin, rapes his sister right next to the body of their dead son? But he's so nice to Brienne though, and he's so dreamy. *SWOON*

Tywin Lannister: his exploits in wiping out an entire freaking family has a major hit song made about it, he oversees the sacking of King's Landing and may have been complacent in the murder and butchering of innocent women and children, arranges the wholesale slaughter of Robb Stark, his mom, and his troops? This guy is the true G of Westeros. Yeah he's done some fucked up shit, but I got to say, Tywin Lannister is the motherfucking BOSS.

Daenerys: frees slaves, has slavers and children killers put to the sword, liberates cities worth of enslaved people? What an egotistical, self absorbed, power tripping little bitch. I can't believe the nerve this girl has for daring to change the status quo in the land she's in. She should be engaging with these kindhearted slavers and murderers with bouquets of flowers, and kind words. Because if we've learned one thing in three and a half seasons worth of Game of Thrones, it's that being nice to the nastiest of people is how you get ahead in this world.

The Westeros Casualty list of Nice people, and people who thought being nice to their enemies is a brilliant strategy:

#1 Eddard Stark:

Ned Stark was so nice, he told the cheating, incest having, wife of the King that he knew her secret, and that she should take her kids and get the hell out. Ned knew that his pal Robert "the King" Baratheon would have straight up choked a bitch if he knew what his wife had done. What did Ned get for his troubles of being nice? Ah, the Queen had the King mortally wounded, and arrested Ned for treason once the King had died. All of which cumulates to Ned getting his head lopped off.

Lesson #1 kids: Don't be nice to your enemies or you may share a similar fate as dear old Ned. Hey Ned, some people are visual learners, mind showing them what happens when you're nice to your enemies?

nlCxBLnl.jpg


#2 Renly Baratheon:

If the Iron Throne was given out as an award for being the nicest guy in Westeros, who more deserving to win it than the People's Champ, Renly "the hottie" Baratheon? Dude was all smiles all the time. Quite frankly, it's hard to argue that Renly wouldn't have made a good king, and he probably could have made an effective push for the throne too. Except for one little detail. Renly wasn't ruthless enough, and in the end the much more ruthless Baratheon sibling snuffed out any aspirations Renly had. Dude was a happy go lucky, laid back kinda guy, who went up against some of the most cut throat killers in Westeros. Nice 0, killers 1.

Lesson #2: Being nice when you're vying for the Iron Throne, is probably the most sure fire way to get killed in Game of Thrones. Don't you agree Renly?

7StGs.gif


But no, please keep telling me how Dany should be nice, and kind, and merciful to her enemies, because that is a bonafide strategy when you play the Game of Thrones. The Iron Throne was forged on Dragon breath and ruthlessness. Do people think kindness and mercy was what made the Kings of old bend the knee to the Targaryens? Was Harrenhal burned to a crisp through an act of kindness? Was Robert Baratheon kind and nice in his rebellion to overthrow the Targaryen dynasty? Has anyone else clamouring for the Iron Throne shown to be nice to their enemies? The answer is no. So why hold Dany to standards that are grossly unusual in this world? At least she's not killing innocent people and unarmed women and children. Can't say the same for some of our other claimants. Look at the guy making all the biggest moves on the show right now. Nice people have a habit of falling like flies when their paths intersect with this guy.
 
Shhhiiiiiiieeeetttttt!!!!
gonna re-edit so it doesn't sound spoiler-y.
also could you edit in my re-edit, brah?? thanx in advance.

What?

No you will get spoiled in here. You are only on season 3 ep 9, there are many gifs in here that will ruin parts of season 4 for you.
 

PFD

Member
Shhhiiiiiiieeeetttttt!!!!
gonna re-edit so it doesn't sound spoiler-y.
also could you edit in my re-edit, brah?? thanx in advance.

This thread is for Season 4 specifically. So if you're not caught up on the latest episode (currently 7) of Season 4, you should stay away from this thread to avoid spoilers.
 

Morrigan Stark

Arrogant Smirk
Jaime Lannister: throws a kid out a window, commits incest, kills his own cousin, rapes his sister right next to the body of their dead son? But he's so nice to Brienne though, and he's so dreamy. *SWOON*[/b.

To be fair though... he is :) I agree with most of your rant though. The double standards are irritating.
 

BizzyBum

Member
Had some douchebag spoil something for me while browsing /b/.. not happy right now. Guess it's my own fault for being on there in the first place.
 

EatChildren

Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
Absolutely every single person in a position of power, whether it be Joffrey, Ned, Tywin, Robb, Dany, or whoever else, is coming from a place of entitlement and ego. That is the nature of kings, queens, and rulers. They are fundamentally incapable of fully appreciating and empathising from the perspective of a commoner because of their entitled "right" to power and royalty. Even "good guys" like Ned and Robb still have moments where they demand people kiss their arse, bend the right leg, and generally make it known that they, in all their righteousness, call the shots. Tyrion could very well be the only person who bridges the gap, or at least comes closest to.

Dany watching her brother get smelted is hardly Joffrey level sociopath. He was a gigantic cunt, a threat to her, her well being, her power, her relationship, and the Targaryen empire as a whole. He was a fucking idiot blinded by entitlement at least no different to her own, almost always far worse, coming from the position of someone who simply hadn't endured quite as much as she had, at least so recently.

Ultimately though Dany is supposed to have flaws, I feel, just like everyone else. Ned was flawed too, despite being the clear protagonist/hero of the first season. He was foolishly bound to a shallow perception of laws and rules and order and was willing to cut off a head without a trial, without discussion, because thems the rules that daddy's daddy's dad (and so on) upheld. He was too simple and honourable to play the politics game at Kings Landing. Robb let a similarly childish view of honour and justice overrule sensibility in war time when he knocked off Karstark's head and then tried to undo his insult to the Walders as if it were no big deal, despite his wiser, more experienced mother telling him on both occasions not to fucking do it.

Dany's fault, so far, is that she really is an exceptionally inexperienced and fairly terrible Queen. She's been city hopping freeing slaves and winning people over with honour and nobility and empathy yet has done sweet shit all to actually lead a civilization. She hasn't had to rule, enact laws, deal with fairness and rights, because everything so far in her journey has been fairly black and white. I feel this is why her story arc is where it's at: she now is faced with the realities of life, of being a Queen, and evidently is not very good at it. She's exposing her empathetic flaws, hence why the likes of Jorah are advising her otherwise.
 
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