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Game of Thrones *NO BOOK SPOILERS* |OT| Season 4 - Sundays on HBO [Read the OP]

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HolyCheck

I want a tag give me a tag
;_;

I made the wrong thread mistake.

Saw a spoiler.

Fuck. Fuck.

:( I thought I was on my subs list (as the other top threads were ones I was subbed to)

Then I was reading, having not read this thread for a few days, I thought I was catching up some ideas / thoughts about what could occur.

Then I thought... maybe I'm in the wrong thread.

And sigh.

This thread is much nicer, what with the discussion of who's pretty :(
 

eLGee

Member
Mind blown.

tumblr_mppucfnBd81sz9xmvo1_500.jpg
 
Anyone know if Littlefinger has more than one brothel? It's been stated more than once that Oberyn is at the Lannister brothel? Is he purposely going to the Lannister brothel just to troll or there's simply only one brothel?
 
Ned was flawed too, despite being the clear protagonist/hero of the first season. He was foolishly bound to a shallow perception of laws and rules and order and was willing to cut off a head without a trial, without discussion, because thems the rules that daddy's daddy's dad (and so on) upheld.

I don't see the problem with beheading the deserter. If you desert from the Night's Watch you don't get a trial, correct? The walkers have been gone for a thousand years (or some huge amount of time), he told Ned what he saw and Ned blew him off. I guess he could have sent a scouting party to try and find the remains, but I don't blame Ned for that. If we didn't see the prologue and the walkers, I doubt we'd believe him either.


Robb let a similarly childish view of honour and justice overrule sensibility in war time when he knocked off Karstark's head and then tried to undo his insult to the Walders as if it were no big deal, despite his wiser, more experienced mother telling him on both occasions not to fucking do it.

I think Robb's problem was that he tried to flip-flop between being honorable like his father and doing what he needed to win. If he was honorable like his father, he would have sucked it up and married Walder's daughter (and prevented his problems from occurring). If he was playing to win he could have dealt with the Karstarks besides killing the leader. He tried to have it both ways and that's what really got him.
 

Massa

Member
I don't see the problem with beheading the deserter. If you desert from the Night's Watch you don't get a trial, correct? The walkers have been gone for a thousand years (or some huge amount of time), he told Ned what he saw and Ned blew him off. I guess he could have sent a scouting party to try and find the remains, but I don't blame Ned for that. If we didn't see the prologue and the walkers, I doubt we'd believe him either.

Whether he was lying or not didn't matter to Ned, he was beheaded because he ran away instead of going back to the Night's Watch.
 

EatChildren

Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
I don't see the problem with beheading the deserter. If you desert from the Night's Watch you don't get a trial, correct? The walkers have been gone for a thousand years (or some huge amount of time), he told Ned what he saw and Ned blew him off. I guess he could have sent a scouting party to try and find the remains, but I don't blame Ned for that. If we didn't see the prologue and the walkers, I doubt we'd believe him either.

It's a problem in the sense that it's a example of of Ned's weaknesses: concepts of law and honour overruling logic and critical thinking. This is where characters like Tyrion and even Bran come into play, showing that in a world of magic and peasants and scheming there's still room for an intellectual approach to situations.

Ned's character flaw is that he is, to a large extent, a simpleton. He is bound to culture, tradition, rules, laws, and honour, and has a very, very difficult time stopping and allowing himself to critical think without the weight of the past holding him back. As Bran says to him at the beheading "So he's a liar". The answer to this is "We don't know, but we killed him anyway". Robb and Ned try to dress it up as honour, something at ~must be done~, but Bran stops to question why something ~must be done~ at all.

Ned fucked up his plan at King's Landing the exact same way. He wanted to honour Robert, and he wanted to honour law as he saw it in just and true politics. He ignored the logical advice of people who knew the situation better than he did, those who knew full well "honour" was a crock of shit, and unsurprisingly the whole thing blew up in his face.

People like Tyrion and co are there to question the rules that should be questioned.

I think Robb's problem was that he tried to flip-flop between being honorable like his father and doing what he needed to win. If he was honorable like his father, he would have sucked it up and married Walder's daughter (and prevented his problems from occurring). If he was playing to win he could have dealt with the Karstarks besides killing the leader. He tried to have it both ways and that's what really got him.

I agree. Robb wanted to be young and impulsive and also live up to his father's honour, and his juvenile approach to the whole thing wound up having him, his family, and his army murdered. But that's the point. Like Ned being bound to honour and law, Robb saw fit that Karstark had to lose his head because rules. This was a bad military and political decision. It was not a good idea. It was against the advice of everyone. But he did it anyway, because honour.

Game of Thrones underlying message is that honour, rules, and traditions are all a crock of shit in the grand scheme of things. Like history, ruthless people will see your adherence to silly concepts and use them to fuck you over and over again.
 

Ovid

Member
Robb's poor decision making is not only about honor it's also due to the fact he knows nothing else. He's basically following in his footsteps. As we saw the beheading of the deserter in S1, Robb is following Ned because he doesn't know any other way. The scene where the younger Starks watch the beheading telling.

Great observation about Tyrion's role.
 
Game of Thrones underlying message is that honour, rules, and traditions are all a crock of shit in the grand scheme of things. Like history, ruthless people will see your adherence to silly concepts and use them to fuck you over and over again.

Yes, this is a good point. Nice twist on the trope of honorable knights and wise kings. It would be a nice reversal if at some point (perhaps when the white walkers or dragons arrive) they need someone like a Ned Stark to rally an army to oppose them. If the schemers keep at it, they won't be many people left when they arrive.
 

Azih

Member
The thing is that Robb and Ned are from the North which is hard country at the best of times and especially so at Winter. The Stark house motto is "Winter is Coming" for a reason; they just doesn't have the time and luxury to indulge in the power games of the South as they're fighting to keep the land tame and stock up provisions for the harsh season to come. In a situation like this you have to deal harshly with people who don't do as they're supposed to. It doesn't matter whether the deserter from the Wall was telling the truth or not. He deserted. He dies. It makes perfect sense from a military perspective and the Starks are essentially a military house as that is what it takes to rule the North. After all as Ned said in Baelor "But I grew up with soldiers. I learned how to die a long time ago"

It's hard to see the point of all of this as we enter the story near the end of what everybody acknowledges as a very long and very fat and pleasant summer and the South is indulging in intrigues. But as the story progresses and the first snows start falling and the Wildlings get ready to assault the Wall as they run terrified of the mythical White Walkers come again at the head of an army of the dead? That's the kind of situation that a person like Eddard Stark was raised for and Robb was being groomed for as well. You need a man willing to lead from the front and personally execute people who don't follow orders because every man is needed and disobedience cannot be tolerated in an army that is involved in a fight to the death. But Ned is dead and Winterfell is burned and broken. Ned wasn't dumb, he was just completely and totally out of his element in the South.

Robb had to deal harshly with the Karstark. He's a King leading an army. You can't be in that position and tolerate dissent. That's how you stop being a King leading an army. Robb's mistake was Talisa and that wasn't a failing of intellect, it was Robb's intellect being overruled by the other parts of his personality. He was a very young guy after all.

TL;DR summary. Ned wasn't dumb he was just completely and totally out of his element (that he didn't recognize this was his mistake). Robb wasn't dumb either he just gave in to youthful passion.
 

Ovid

Member
Yes, this is a good point. Nice twist on the trope of honorable knights and wise kings. It would be a nice reversal if at some point (perhaps when the white walkers or dragons arrive) they need someone like a Ned Stark to rally an army to oppose them. If the schemers keep at it, they won't be many people left when they arrive.
I think every house in the South will be needed to defeat the WW. You're right, it will be interesting to see who will be the equivalent of Mance Rayder and rally opposing houses to fight one common enemy.
 
The thing is that Robb and Ned are from the North which is hard country at the best of times and especially so at Winter. The Stark house motto is "Winter is Coming" for a reason; they just doesn't have the time and luxury to indulge in the power games of the South as they're fighting to keep the land tame and stock up provisions for the harsh season to come. In a situation like this you have to deal harshly with people who don't do as they're supposed to. It doesn't matter whether the deserter from the Wall was telling the truth or not. He deserted. He dies. It makes perfect sense from a military perspective and the Starks are essentially a military house as that is what it takes to rule the North. After all as Ned said in Baelor "But I grew up with soldiers. I learned how to die a long time ago"

It's hard to see the point of all of this as we enter the story near the end of what everybody acknowledges as a very long and very fat and pleasant summer and the South is indulging in intrigues. But as the story progresses and the first snows start falling and the Wildlings get ready to assault the Wall as they run terrified of the mythical White Walkers come again at the head of an army of the dead? That's the kind of situation that a person like Eddard Stark was raised for and Robb was being groomed for as well. You need a man willing to lead from the front and personally execute people who don't follow orders because every man is needed and disobedience cannot be tolerated in an army that is involved in a fight to the death. But Ned is dead and Winterfell is burned and broken. Ned wasn't dumb, he was just completely and totally out of his element in the South.

Robb had to deal harshly with the Karstark. He's a King leading an army. You can't be in that position and tolerate dissent. That's how you stop being a King leading an army. Robb's mistake was Talisa and that wasn't a failing of intellect, it was Robb's intellect being overruled by the other parts of his personality. He was a very young guy after all.

TL;DR summary. Ned wasn't dumb he was just completely and totally out of his element (that he didn't recognize this was his mistake). Robb wasn't dumb either he just gave in to youthful passion.

I think we're giving Robb too much of a pass for this one. He not only broke his oath to an important bannerman to his mother's house, but he outright stole from him as the oath was defined by a mutual exchange of services - one that Frey executed while Robb did not. That not only made Robb an oath-breaker, but a thief, as well, which are qualities considered especially abhorrent by northern standard.

While it's easy for us to be warmly dismissive of Robb's folly, from the other side of the bargaining table, he was lying, unreliable scum. And he was a fool for not only dismissing his mother's stern warning regarding Frey's tendencies, but for believing that the enemy - who happened to be far richer - was incapable of competing for the same allegiances.
 

Snuggles

erotic butter maelstrom
I agree. Robb wanted to be young and impulsive and also live up to his father's honour, and his juvenile approach to the whole thing wound up having him, his family, and his army murdered. But that's the point. Like Ned being bound to honour and law, Robb saw fit that Karstark had to lose his head because rules. This was a bad military and political decision. It was not a good idea. It was against the advice of everyone. But he did it anyway, because honour.

I agree for the most part, but there was a little more to the Karstark execution than just honor for the sake of honor. Robb had been struggling to truly establish himself as the 'King of the North' in the eyes of the men fighting for him. I remember a specific scene in S2 or S3 where someone gets chewed the fuck out for still referring to him as a boy.

Karstark deliberately disobeyed Robb's orders by executing the Lannister boys, and had to pay for his treason.

Still, maybe not that best decision considering the circumstances at the time.
 

Azih

Member
I'm not saying it wasn't Rob's mistake wasn't a MASSIVELY DUMB ONE and an incredibly dishonorable thing to do to boot that eventually led to the near elimination of the entire House (WTG Robb! Thanks a bunch Talisa!) I'm just saying that executing the Karstark way later wasn't a dumb thing to do.
 
I'm not saying it wasn't Rob's mistake wasn't a MASSIVELY DUMB ONE and an incredibly dishonorable thing to do to boot that eventually led to the near elimination of the entire House (WTG Robb! Thanks a bunch Talisa!) I'm just saying that executing the Karstark way later wasn't a dumb thing to do.

I don't understand why simply imprisoning Rickard Karstark or discharging him to the Wall weren't considered more appropriate measures. Ned Stark was accused of treason against the King of Westeros, and his original punishment was for him to be assigned to the Wall - a sentence that even the hateful Cersei and the merciless Tywin agreed with before Joffrey botched it. Why were they smart enough to avoid the possible backlash of exacting capital punishment in response to treason while Robb was not?
 

Azih

Member
I don't understand why simply imprisoning Rickard Karstark or discharging him to the Wall weren't considered more appropriate measures. Ned Stark was accused of treason against the King of Westeros, and his original punishment was for him to be assigned to the Wall - a sentence that even the hateful Cersei and the merciless Tywin agreed with before Joffrey botched it. Why were they smart enough to avoid the possible backlash of exacting capital punishment in response to treason while Robb was not?

Cersei and Tywin were
A) in charge of the realm so they could enforce either imprisonment or exile to the Wall
B) not warleaders in the middle of war in a warcamp.

Robb had no prison, couldn't force Karstark to the Wall, and needed to maintain his authority as the leader of rebel forces in the middle of a war in the face of direct disobedience.
 
I don't understand why simply imprisoning Rickard Karstark or discharging him to the Wall weren't considered more appropriate measures. Ned Stark was accused of treason against the King of Westeros, and his original punishment was for him to be assigned to the Wall - a sentence that even the hateful Cersei and the merciless Tywin agreed with before Joffrey botched it. Why were they smart enough to avoid the possible backlash of exacting capital punishment in response to treason while Robb was not?
Tywin did not want a full a scale revolt from Winterfell which would happen if Ned was killed. Tywin is heartless but he did not agree to exile for Ned out of mercy from his heart, but rather because Tywin is the master at the Game.

But yeah Robb done goofd moment he offed Poppa Karstark head. There are no two ways about it.
 
I think we're giving Robb too much of a pass for this one. He not only broke his oath to an important bannerman to his mother's house, but he outright stole from him as the oath was defined by a mutual exchange of services - one that Frey executed while Robb did not. That not only made Robb an oath-breaker, but a thief, as well, which are qualities considered especially abhorrent by northern standard.

While it's easy for us to be warmly dismissive of Robb's folly, from the other side of the bargaining table, he was lying, unreliable scum. And he was a fool for not only dismissing his mother's stern warning regarding Frey's tendencies, but for believing that the enemy - who happened to be far richer - was incapable of competing for the same allegiances.
He wasn't a fool, simply desperate. Even Tywin states in season 3 that he will lose the war now. He can't go home since they killed his father, and have both of his sisters now assuming his 2 other brothers have been burned alive. His stupid mistake was not following his oath due to love, which is understandable but stupid.
I don't understand why simply imprisoning Rickard Karstark or discharging him to the Wall weren't considered more appropriate measures. Ned Stark was accused of treason against the King of Westeros, and his original punishment was for him to be assigned to the Wall - a sentence that even the hateful Cersei and the merciless Tywin agreed with before Joffrey botched it. Why were they smart enough to avoid the possible backlash of exacting capital punishment in response to treason while Robb was not?
Errr because his son had taken the North and was in a war with them? It would have been completely idiotic to kill Ned. In episode 10, (ned) it's stated by Tyrion that with his dead father, there is mending ties now. This was pretty obvious I thought.
 
There is a lot you can criticize Ned Stark for, but beheading the boy to open up the season seems pretty far down on the list, IMO.
Isn't that the whole thing with the Night's Watch, though?

You take the black and surrender your life for the Watch.
If you leave the Watch you forfeit that life- period.

Obviously a man in Stark's position could make an exception, have a trial, etc.- but wouldn't that set a bad precedent against the entire reason the idea of the Wall works in the first place?
A 'no exception' rule (i.e. punishable by death) pretty much eliminates any confusion as to what would be and what wouldn't be acceptable for 'abandoning' the Watch. It's probably how they are able to keep even a couple hundred men on the Wall. The majority of those men are given a choice, knowing full well the consequences: be punished for your crimes (be it by death or dismemberment) or live and take the black. The Seven Kingdoms also seem to accept the fact that the Wall needs men and supplies this option, allowing the system to work.

Even the boy that Ned executes appears to understand his fate and doesn't put up a fight or argument- at least in the show... I have no idea if it's more dramatic in the book.

To me that's different than the type of decision Robb has with Karstark.
Robb could very easily have played that situation out differently and still saved face, but as others have pointed out, he was following a misguided 'code of honor' instead of adapting during a critical war-time situation.

Makes me wonder about a couple different scenarios had they played out:
What if Jon, overwhelmed with anger & the need for vengeance based on Ned's execution, actually succeed in abandoning the Wall, and joined Robb's army?
Would Robb have executed him on the spot to follow the rules and honor code? If he doesn't, he's making a critical exception to the rule and many would have immediately noticed.
 
So what's everyone's take on where Bronn stands on the show now, will we see him much anymore or no? I have a feeling we won't. The goodbye between both Tyrion and Bronn almost felt like it was a goodbye for the viewers as well. We'll either that or a goodbye to Tyrion, or both, please no.
 

Vashetti

Banned
So what's everyone's take on where Bronn stands on the show now, will we see him much anymore or no? I have a feeling we won't. The goodbye between both Tyrion and Bronn almost felt like it was a goodbye for the viewers as well. We'll either that or a goodbye to Tyrion, or both, please no.

It felt like an "end" to the character for me.

Like Osha/Rickon's and Gendry's final scenes last season.
 

kidko

Member
It felt like an "end" to the character for me.

Like Osha/Rickon's and Gendry's final scenes last season.

Yeah, like, goodbye for now. I don't imagine we'll see him living out that lord's life he was talking about, though I wouldn't count him out forever. He seems like the type to come back and help ol' Tyrion out again in the future some day... like "felt bad I couldn't help ya back there with The Mountain, so this was the least I could do."
 

Snuggles

erotic butter maelstrom
I didn't get that feeling with Osha and Rickon, but since they haven't even been mentioned I guess they're gone too.

I would be pretty shocked if we never saw them again. Rickon's too important to be disappeared just like that. And isn't Reek going to be sent that way?

Bronn and Gendry I can see possibly never returning, since they don't really have any purpose anymore, but you never know.
 

Cyan

Banned
So what's everyone's take on where Bronn stands on the show now, will we see him much anymore or no? I have a feeling we won't. The goodbye between both Tyrion and Bronn almost felt like it was a goodbye for the viewers as well. We'll either that or a goodbye to Tyrion, or both, please no.

It did kind of feel like that. :(

Even if Tyrion survives this, it seems like it'd be tough to just go back to the old best bros relationship.

I would miss Bronn if he disappears. He's one of my favorite minor characters. Every time he's paired up with someone new it's always fun.
 
It did kind of feel like that. :(

Even if Tyrion survives this, it seems like it'd be tough to just go back to the old best bros relationship.

I would miss Bronn if he disappears. He's one of my favorite minor characters. Every time he's paired up with someone new it's always fun.

Same here, he's got the best one liners and is just a great character/actor.

If that's the case hopefully Oberyn is Tyrions new bro, that would kinda make up for the loss I think.
 

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
Yeah, like, goodbye for now. I don't imagine we'll see him living out that lord's life he was talking about, though I wouldn't count him out forever. He seems like the type to come back and help ol' Tyrion out again in the future some day... like "felt bad I couldn't help ya back there with The Mountain, so this was the least I could do."

Agreed, we'll see him again. I doubt Cersei will be able to just let him ride off into the sunset either.
 

Nameless

Member
Complete History and Lore of Westeros Part 1

Complete History and Lore of Westeros Part 2

Complete History and Lore of Westeros Part 3

I'm horrendously lttp on these, but my goodness are they fantastic. Not sure why they're buried as special features on the Blu-Rays; this is easily something they could have edited and aired before or after the seasons. The illustrations, the narration, and the music are all top notch. These are pretty much required viewing for Thrones fans... best watched on a television.
 
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