Neoriceisgood
Member
Maybe GRRM just gives all the villain tropes/cliches to good guys & hero tropes/cliches to bad guys?
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Game of Thrones *NO BOOK SPOILERS* |OT| Season 4 - Sundays on HBO [Read the OP]
- Thread starter Steelyuhas
- Start date
- Status
Maybe GRRM just gives all the villain tropes/cliches to good guys & hero tropes/cliches to bad guys?
VanquishUK
Member
It's a shame because he's clearly a fantastic fighter and could easily beat him. In a 1v1 with The Mountain with no emotions interfering, it wouldn't even be a challenge.
b-b-b-but Oberyn was the good guy.
Ninja Scooter
Member
Weren't the Mountains actions sort of a "known" thing? They were probably just excused as "acts of war". It seemed like Oberyn wanted revenge moreso than a confession.
TheJollyCorner
Member
Tyrion is so fucked.
His trail by combat bid has come and gone- and he lost.
Sentence of death has been passed down. Period.
Not that I see it happening in GRRM's world, but let's just say Jamie hatches some elaborate plan to break Tyrion out.
Then what?
He would be a (famous) fugitive imp. Would Jamie be able to travel with him for protection? I can't even imagine the lengths Tywin (and Cersei) would go through to ensure they don't get far. An imp and a man with a fake, ornate hand. Not the easiest duo to disguise. Hell, people recognized 'The Kingslayer' when he was disheveled and dressed as a peasant traveling through the North.
They would no longer have the protection of the Lannister name, nor wealth.
"But what about Bronn taking Tyrion and protecting him?" - I don't see it. It would be a suicide job and Bronn seems to appreciate living... and money. Sure, he doesn't seem to cower from a fight (i.e. his interaction with the Kingsguard and The Hound in S2), but I just don't see anything in a situation like this for an admitted merc.
Tyrion's family (sans Jamie) have abandoned him.
The woman he loved more than anything else (Shae) betrayed him.
He's a little man in an unforgiving world... and even if by some miracle he was spirited away to The Wall... well... we can all see what's cooking up North.
There is nothing left for Tyrion. I'm afraid this would have also been the case had Oberyn actually won.
Dead man walking. Everyone just needs to come to grips with that right now.
I hope I'm wrong and Tyrion survives the entirety of this bleak story
His trail by combat bid has come and gone- and he lost.
Sentence of death has been passed down. Period.
Not that I see it happening in GRRM's world, but let's just say Jamie hatches some elaborate plan to break Tyrion out.
Then what?
He would be a (famous) fugitive imp. Would Jamie be able to travel with him for protection? I can't even imagine the lengths Tywin (and Cersei) would go through to ensure they don't get far. An imp and a man with a fake, ornate hand. Not the easiest duo to disguise. Hell, people recognized 'The Kingslayer' when he was disheveled and dressed as a peasant traveling through the North.
They would no longer have the protection of the Lannister name, nor wealth.
"But what about Bronn taking Tyrion and protecting him?" - I don't see it. It would be a suicide job and Bronn seems to appreciate living... and money. Sure, he doesn't seem to cower from a fight (i.e. his interaction with the Kingsguard and The Hound in S2), but I just don't see anything in a situation like this for an admitted merc.
Tyrion's family (sans Jamie) have abandoned him.
The woman he loved more than anything else (Shae) betrayed him.
He's a little man in an unforgiving world... and even if by some miracle he was spirited away to The Wall... well... we can all see what's cooking up North.
There is nothing left for Tyrion. I'm afraid this would have also been the case had Oberyn actually won.
Dead man walking. Everyone just needs to come to grips with that right now.
I hope I'm wrong and Tyrion survives the entirety of this bleak story
Only Myrcella is in Dorne. Tommen is in King's Landing.
Nameless
Member
My dude Ramsay was the big winner last night. He took an important holdfast without losing a single man, and commemorated his victory by reving the ancient customs of his House.
http://cdn.fansided.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/229/files/2014/06/GOT4-3-Men-Slaughtered.gif
Above all he got his 'Lion King' moment. With his family's dominion surrounding him, stretching as far as the eye could see in all directions, he received the adoration & approval of his father. Theon broke every vow and committed countless moral atrocities trying to get that from Balon. Tyrion is in the predicament he's in largely because he never got it from Tywin. Even Robb no doubt coveted seeing pride and respect in his father's eyes as he marched south to rescue him. Especially in light of what happened to Oberyn, seeing a character like Ramsay getting a moment like that is a big part of what I find so refreshing about this story.
Ramsay Bolton...heir to Winterfell.
http://cdn.fansided.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/229/files/2014/06/GOT4-3-Men-Slaughtered.gif
Above all he got his 'Lion King' moment. With his family's dominion surrounding him, stretching as far as the eye could see in all directions, he received the adoration & approval of his father. Theon broke every vow and committed countless moral atrocities trying to get that from Balon. Tyrion is in the predicament he's in largely because he never got it from Tywin. Even Robb no doubt coveted seeing pride and respect in his father's eyes as he marched south to rescue him. Especially in light of what happened to Oberyn, seeing a character like Ramsay getting a moment like that is a big part of what I find so refreshing about this story.
Ramsay Bolton...heir to Winterfell.
seems that way. In Oberyn's case, it comes across as lazy writing honestly
So why was the confession so important for Oberyn? He knew who killed his sister, Tywin knew. And the rest of King's Landing's people probably could have guessed.
It's not like the Mountain was some noble knight, who never resorted to violence. In the previous episode we see him slaughtering prisoners just for practice. It must be common knowledge, that he is a sick, twisted and extremely violent person.
So why does Oberyn insists on a stupid confession? Were the circumstances of his sister's death unclear for the general public?
It's not like the Mountain was some noble knight, who never resorted to violence. In the previous episode we see him slaughtering prisoners just for practice. It must be common knowledge, that he is a sick, twisted and extremely violent person.
So why does Oberyn insists on a stupid confession? Were the circumstances of his sister's death unclear for the general public?
The wire ostensibly portrays reality and it's more soul rending at its low points than GoT could hope to muster. Hell a lot of the horror of this show is based on real history
Napalm_Frank said:
eh, I'm not really convinced. Bronn might have been smarter but Oberyn seems like a faster fighter and he was *still* getting snuck up on and tossed around.
yeah, the show is very bittersweet with how it dispenses justice. Sooner or later, the people you want dead will (maybe?) end up dead, just not in the way you want to see it. Joffrey is dead, but neither Sansa or Arya or even Tyrion got to do it, and Robb and Ned remain basically unavenged.
Well, not really. He really punishes heroes for thinking justice, fairness and honor (all hero cliches) matter in such a backstabby world.
Cunning is winning, and greedy, smart, psychopathic manipulators are making shit happen for themselves. Just like in real life I guess.
Infernostew
Member
Worked out well for Ned Stark.
AuthenticM
Member
Jaimie needs to murder his sister and father.
StudioTan
Hold on, friend! I'd love to share with you some swell news about the Windows 8 Metro UI! Wait, where are you going?
Then what was the point of trying to get him to confess? I thought they only had rumours? Now that he has....
Yes, I stand corrected but my point still stands. It's not going to go end well for her I think.
Mercury Fred
Banned
The more I think about it, the more that felt like a jump the shark moment.
Ninja Scooter
Member
He wanted to get him to confess to doing it, and then confess to Tywin ordering it so that he could kill Tywin.
BennyBlanco
aka IMurRIVAL69
He wanted to implicate tywin in giving him the order.
It's a public confession of a monsterous crime. It's meaningful the same way any public confession is. It was an open secret, a living rumor.
Infernostew
Member
Please explain.
TheJollyCorner
Member
I got the impression Oberyn just wanted The Mountain to suffer and show power over him.
Yeah... didn't work out as planned.
SpaceShark
Member
He's got entertainment value for sure, but I can't stand him. Very high on my personal GoT shit list.
How can you NOT like him? It's not like Theon was of any value to the show
Above all he got his 'Lion King' moment. With his family's dominion surrounding him, stretching as far as the eye could see in all directions, he received the adoration & approval of his father. Theon broke every vow and committed countless moral atrocities trying to get that from Balon. Tyrion is in the predicament he's in largely because he never got it from Tywin. Even Robb no doubt coveted seeing pride and respect in his father's eyes as he marched south to rescue him. Especially in light of what happened to Oberyn, seeing a character like Ramsay getting a moment like that is a big part of what I find so refreshing about this story.
Ramsay Bolton...heir to Winterfell.
Yeah, I'm torn between loving the fact this show will seemlingly reward a character as morally bankrupt as Ramsay Bolton, and my gut reaction to want him die slowly and painfully.
I hope you're wrong (i.e. that it's jumped), but yeah, I can see it. While I was shocked by the brutality of the final scene, the fact that the likable character died horribly is starting to feel predictable, and slightly overplayed.
So that he can kill the hand without trial? It's not like the Lannisters would accept Oberyn killing Tywin just because he ordered Clegane to kill Oberyn's sister. There would be war over a Dornish prince killing the hand, with or without a "confession" from a dying brute.
Complistic
Member
Well ned was sentenced to the wall until Joffery fucked up. You didn't think Ned was totally doomed until much later.
Ninja Scooter
Member
It would be worse for them if they killed the daughter of the Queen regent. The death of Oberyn's sister and her kids is probably seen as collateral damage and Oberyn's death came in trial by combat which he volunteered for. I think Dorne's hands are tied here.
as evidenced by his behavior during the fight with the Mountain, I don't think Oberyn cared. If he could get his revenge (killing the Mountain and somehow killing Tywin) and was killed later I think he'd be happy.
Infernostew
Member
True true. I've give you that.
Complistic
Member
Not ones that haven't aired yet I don't think.
Cornballer
Member
Episode titles are fair game for discussion.
Mercury Fred
Banned
GoT just feels corny and overwrought now. "Shocking" moments that are no longer shocking, just cheap and gruesome for gruesomeness's sake. And that final scene was the cheesiest moment of several seasons of cheesy moments, so much so that it felt like shark-jumping. I mean, it was dead obvious from the moment Oberon started peacocking that he was going to be toast. Imo, what felt like artistry at times now just feels like "shocking" hackery.
djcatskratch
Member
Saw this around, pretty funny:
You know, the kind of brutal death Oberyn got is the kind of death Joffrey deserved. Not some poison in a cup of wine.
If Cersei and Tywin ever dies, they'll probably only get a sword or dagger or arrow through the chest at best, knowing how good Lannisters have it in the death department.
If Cersei and Tywin ever dies, they'll probably only get a sword or dagger or arrow through the chest at best, knowing how good Lannisters have it in the death department.
Neoriceisgood
Member
I know, I was just kidding about Oberyn dying during what qualifies as a heroic version of the "villain speech" moment.
There's probably a few others I could think of like Tywin of all people getting a "Big Ass Hero" moment during blackwater.
Oberyn knew what the dangers were stepping into the arena. Joffrey on the other hand was poisoned at his own wedding. And it looked pretty painful to me.
I hated watching it, but I feel the opposite. As the shock wore off, I couldn't help but appreciate how well done that was. From the outset, I had a sense that storytelling demanded Oberyn to lose, and the execution of that seriously couldn't have been better. And this is episode 8. This wasn't even episode 9. It's possible 9 could end with another Ned Stark "holy shit, he was actually killed?" moment, but all this horrifying tragedy has to be setting up something more complex.
At the very least, it could be. I don't see how Oberyn's death could be seen as a "jump the shark moment" in any way, shape, or form, but especially not before we even know how everything is going to ultimately unfold.
Yeah but he had a way out, confess his crimes and go to castle black (or so we thought). Tyrion specifically rejected this scenario. As far as we know right now, he's a goner, and that's what makes me think he'll be fine.
Vyse The Legend
Member
I'm pretty sure he intended to throw his spear at Tywin, if the Mountain had confessed. He even motioned to do it when he was yelling at them.
-COOLIO-
The Everyman
oh okay.
ComputerBlue
Member
It's all Oberyn now.
Mercury Fred
Banned
I haven't read this books so this isn't a spoiler, but I assume that it's going to unfold as the entire series has: with a series of/ seasons worth of many, many repetitive, tedious, unsatisfying scenes and events that never come to any remotely satisfying conclusion.
GameAddict411
Member
both of them died, so why it doesn't count as a draw? i don't think that the mountain is going to survive that direct stab to the chest, i am guessing that jamie is going to break free his brother and both them are going to be fugitives. at least i hope so.
You're being overly specific. Are you sure you aren't a book reader?
I mean, if you generally don't enjoy the storytelling style of GoT, that's fine. I don't know how Oberyn's death was so disruptive of that constant stream of repetition as to constitute a jump the shark moment, though.
Ninja Scooter
Member
well technically Oberyn died first lol
- Status