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Game of Thrones *NO BOOK SPOILERS* |OT| Season 4 - Sundays on HBO [Read the OP]
- Thread starter Steelyuhas
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Roose has a badass voice too. I'm getting tired of Tywin, let's have Roose be the big bad starting next season.
Oh crap, lolI wanna see her
moment when she remembers Dorne have her daughter.
Poor Reek was fucked either way. If he stayed true to the North, he would have been disowned by his family, and likely would have died alongside Robb during the rebellion. That's if he even made it that far, who knows what the consequences would have been for openly defying father, and he was forced to make that choice while he was on Balon's land.
At first I hated him for turning on the Starks and destroying Winterfell, but in retrospect I can see that had didn't really have a choice. He had to follow his father's orders. He had to try to be brutal, because that was the only way to earn the respect of the Iron Borne army. And even after all of that, he was sold out by them and ultimately came to regret betraying what had become his "true" family.
That's not to say he's kind of a dick in the first place, but in the Game of Thrones universe he's a relatively sympathetic character. His torture and brain washing has been hard to watch for me. I want to see him have some kind of redemption, hopefully in the form of cutting Ramsay the bastard's throat.
EDIT - It took me awhile to type that, and Hyrule just posted the same thing but far more eloquently. Good to know I'm not alone on this, though!!
At first I hated him for turning on the Starks and destroying Winterfell, but in retrospect I can see that had didn't really have a choice. He had to follow his father's orders. He had to try to be brutal, because that was the only way to earn the respect of the Iron Borne army. And even after all of that, he was sold out by them and ultimately came to regret betraying what had become his "true" family.
That's not to say he's kind of a dick in the first place, but in the Game of Thrones universe he's a relatively sympathetic character. His torture and brain washing has been hard to watch for me. I want to see him have some kind of redemption, hopefully in the form of cutting Ramsay the bastard's throat.
EDIT - It took me awhile to type that, and Hyrule just posted the same thing but far more eloquently. Good to know I'm not alone on this, though!!
Nameless
Member
Cersei would make a fascinating subject in a study on how people respond to fictional characters. "Endless amounts of suffering" "vile" "that bitch". I totally get disliking her, her face condescends the air it breathes, but she draws an inordinate amount of hate given her actions on the show. What exactly has she done that's so reprehensible outside of playing the game to elevate and protect her and her house , same as so many others?
People blame her for Bran but she didn't push him, Jaime did, and she reprimanded him for it. She's blamed for Ned when she merely defended against someone trying to usurp her family's claim to the Crown. She didn't want him executed, though. Joffrey did that. The second attempt on Bran's life, the slaughter of King Robert's bastatds, the attempt on Tyrion life at Blackwater. Cersei was cast as a red herring for all of these crimes in the moment, and people still judged her as if she was responsible after the true perpetrators were revealed.
I don't see how anyone can loathe Cersei but respect Tywin. She essentially a slightly less intelligent version of him with a vagina. She shares his worldview, deamenor, and sense of duty to the family legacy more than any other Lannister.
BananasWithGuns
Member
Wow, couldn't have said it better myself.
I absolutely love Theon as a character and he's been my favorite in the series ever since season 2. All the internal conflict he had to go through made me feel for him that much more.
By this point Theon has suffered a fate worse than death and every time he's on screen I yearn for him to take his first step on the path to redemption. Sadly season 4 has been disappointing in that regard. Nonetheless, I definitely feel like there's a lot more story to tell when it comes to Theon and I can't wait to see what the future holds for him.
Emilia gets a lot of hate around these parts. I think she does a rather decent job with her character.
Ultimadrago
Member
I never recall her being notably "good", but that scene in particular was awful, even relative to her other "times" on-board. The satisfaction of the Fedora, Jorah, getting banished though made it still entertaining nonetheless.
Nope, I'm there with ya.
And I love Maisie Williams.
Acting is about communicating information through your facial expressions and voice to the audience. Look at this face:
This is just as she tells Jorah to GTFO. It would be a rather emotional moment for Dany, I think. Her guide and mentor has betrayed her and she's sending him on his way, most probably such that she'll never see him again. Her face needs to be carrying a range of emotions, most importantly probably betrayal. On the surface she should be determined, defiant, sure of herself and in command. But her face should also be revealing signs that she feels betrayed and damaged. Signs that she's sad to be saying goodbye to someone she once considered a close friend. It's a pretty complicated and nuanced situation she's in.
All she's really showing here is that first surface level emotion - defiance and sureness in herself. Because it's such a highly emotional scene, the character would let her guard down for at least a few moments, allowing the audience a window into her emotional state. Her eyes would tell us more than her actions are letting on. But she's really not.
I think whether it's subpar acting or subpar directing, this scene isn't as effective as it could have been because the information isn't communicating the information required to convey those emotions.
killing Sansa's wolf when Arya's couldn't be found.
ordering excess food to be fed to the dogs instead of the people of the city.
kidnapping Ros
pointing out Shae to Tywin
her entire relationship with Tyrion
incestuous adultery
Joffrey
general contempt for everyone that isn't a lannister, peasantry in particular.
Tywin believes in the small things, like feeding people.
If Tywin ever dies no one is going to cry out or have a red-wedding/oberyn reaction, i'm not sure how much 'respect' you think exists for the character. he's generally acknowledged as being a bad person.
poppabk
Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
In the scene with Bran, Jamie rescues him and then Cersei says he saw us with a meaningful look and that is what causes Jamie to let Bran fall. She had her husband the king of the realm drugged so that he would die while hunting, starting all the wars and turmoil and death, just to maintain her psychotic sons right to be king. Tywin at least wants power for the sake of power, Cersei has pretty much done everything for the sake of her hateful child.
My man.
And Alfie Allen really sells it.
Look at the doubt in his eyes in this scene.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfAUgtGy9zU
Great acting all around. Bran was amazing here.
Braag
Member
This is what really happened. I'll say it until I believe it myself.
In Season 1 I was indifferent to Theon. In most of Season 2 I thought he was despicable because I didn't understand his character yet. I think it was Episode 10 when I did a complete 180 on him and it all finally clicked (it was during his monologue with the Maester of Winterfell). I completely understood his motivation and his yearning for acceptance in between these two families who never really took him in as one of them. It's a beautiful and tragic story that falls in nicely with Tyrion's and I guess Jon Snow. I was absolutely ready to root for him. In fact I thought his big speech in Winterfell was a lovely way for him to go out - finally winning the respect of someone - ironic, because he's moments away from his death. And I thought he would die there and then. And I would have been more satisfied with that than many of these other shock deaths where the characters haven't had complete arcs in any which way. But Theon had.
And then that whole thing was subverted and Theon was taken away. And I haven't really been able to get into his character since because there really hasn't been a whole lot of drama outside of a few isolated incidents. He's been utterly destroyed. Completely and wholly. Without hope. There's no real dramatic tension because it's been all bad. It's completely one sided. I haven't been a huge fan of his story since the start of S3 now.
So that leaves exactly one episode where I was there with Theon. But it was a thoroughly moving one. And I sympathise fully with him as a result. I'll be right behind him when his character gets moving again, but I simply can't invest myself in his story now.
Add me to the group of people who thought Arya's laughter was awkward. Which was a shame, because the scene could have been great. The laughter just didn't seem natural.
Also, I want to be happy that it looks like Sansa became a badass, but I'm too busy being creeped out by Littlefinger being obsessed with her. I hope she kills him before he tries anything else.
Also, I want to be happy that it looks like Sansa became a badass, but I'm too busy being creeped out by Littlefinger being obsessed with her. I hope she kills him before he tries anything else.
Dirtyshubb
Member
Firstly i completely understand where you are coming from but to be honest i think your idea of what Danny should have been acting like goes against what the whole scene was about.Acting is about communicating information through your facial expressions and voice to the audience. Look at this face:
This is just as she tells Jorah to GTFO. It would be a rather emotional moment for Dany, I think. Her guide and mentor has betrayed her and she's sending him on his way, most probably such that she'll never see him again. Her face needs to be carrying a range of emotions, most importantly probably betrayal. On the surface she should be determined, defiant, sure of herself and in command. But her face should also be revealing signs that she feels betrayed and damaged. Signs that she's sad to be saying goodbye to someone she once considered a close friend. It's a pretty complicated and nuanced situation she's in.
All she's really showing here is that first surface level emotion - defiance and sureness in herself. Because it's such a highly emotional scene, the character would let her guard down for at least a few moments, allowing the audience a window into her emotional state. Her eyes would tell us more than her actions are letting on. But she's really not.
I think whether it's subpar acting or subpar directing, this scene isn't as effective as it could have been because the information isn't communicating the information required to convey those emotions.
It was about Jorah and not Danny, it was the moment that his one true love (in his eyes), the women he would die for discarding him for betraying her. Now add the fact that he did this before he knew her, and since has saved her life and through his council helped her to get to where she is now, all the while helping her to attack difficult situations while sticking to her morals and help as many as possible. For this scene to have the most impact, Danny needs to be a stone cold bitch, he needs to believe that everything he has done has been undone by his inability to tell her the truth earlier.
Had Danny shown any emotion at that point her actions wouldnt have meant as much because you would be expecting her to change her mind before he walks out the door etc.
*Edit* Also, you have to take into consideration that her initial reaction wasnt shown, that happened when the other Knight (Can never remember his name) told her and from the scene between him and Jorah you could tell he wasnt going to settle until he was gone so he would have prepared Danny most likely on how to handle the situation.
Hmm. Yeah I hadn't thought of it as being "Jorah's scene" and for sure, if that was the case, I think you'd just about be right. You would want to dilute all elements to be most impactful for that central character, and you're right, to do that you would probably want to make Dany a stone cold bitch.
But further consideration I think the reason why GoT is so captivating is it doesn't let up when it comes to nuance and fleshing out its characters. It's not a show with a central character and it makes no efforts to simplify characters for the sake of any other characters. It's an ensemble show about lots of complex people clashing and then seeing which way the cards fall.
Sure, Jorah might have been, ultimately, the most prominent character in the scene, but Dany should absolutely not be diluted, especially in a show like GoT, ever for the sake of another character I don't think. Especially considering she is, ultimately, the major character of Essos. It is ultimately her story we're going through. And I'm not asking for tears or an unchecked explosion of outrage. Just subtle clues in her face to communicate to the audience that this is more complicated than just "Get out." Because, simply, it is more complicated. And it's a disservice to their 3.8 seasons worth of relationship to have Dany's reaction to the situation be that diluted and simplified.
I think a primary theme of the books and show is that the goodness of a person isn't necessarily evident at the grand scale. When zoomed out completely, every King is a conqueror, and every conqueror wages wars that kill thousands.
It's only on the smaller scale where Tyrion's nobility (as an example) contrasts starkly with Cercei's cruelty (as another). It isn't the wars that Cercei starts that are proof of her cruelty, it's things like her willingness to kill Sansa's direwolf when they couldn't find Arya's. It suggests that she's less concerned with justice and more concerned with punishment.
At least for now, the game of thrones is meaningless to the peasants; they're starving no matter who is winning.
It's only on the smaller scale where Tyrion's nobility (as an example) contrasts starkly with Cercei's cruelty (as another). It isn't the wars that Cercei starts that are proof of her cruelty, it's things like her willingness to kill Sansa's direwolf when they couldn't find Arya's. It suggests that she's less concerned with justice and more concerned with punishment.
At least for now, the game of thrones is meaningless to the peasants; they're starving no matter who is winning.
Ultimadrago
Member
Minor note (for the show at least), but Cersei had Sansa's direwolf killed when they couldn't find Arya's.
Point still stands, of course.
That was not an unintentional book spoiler, that was an unintentional name swap. You're correct, thank you. Edited.
turnbuckle
Member
Dammit...the spoiler and non spoiler threads are way too similar. Oooops. Wish I could unread things 
Dirtyshubb
Member
Oh im sure we will get a scene with Danny where she shows her true emotions on the subject, most likely after shit starts to hit the fan without Jorah there to help her in tough situations. I just think there would have been too much to handle in one short scene if we had to also deal with how Danny felt about the situation (other than wanting him away from her forever etc.).
Lets just agree that GoT's is an amazing show that just gets better and better, then we all win
I completely agree with you on Clarke's acting. I suppose the easiest way to show her fairly bad acting would be to contrast her to Theona and Alfie Allen who has been mentioned here. In exactly the same manner during S2 Theon had to look strong and cold and yet Allen was able to potray the character so well that you just knew he was having a hard time maintaining that.
Clarke has been playing Danny as this very stoic character since her first scene on the show. That did work for the abused little sister of Viserys or the raped girl Khaleesi. But This stoic, detached and cold character completely failed to evolve when the story called for it.
I agree with this. I'm not saying her acting was great, but I don't believe there was meant to be any underlying hesitation in that scene. We've started to really see the Targaryen in Dany lately. Instead of a confused girl in need of guidance, she's started to act with some conviction in her beliefs. A good example of this would be the scene where she chose to execute the slave masters, despite Barristan advising her show them mercy. She's grown more confident and is acting more like a ruler, but along with that she's started to lose some of her sense of reason and kindness. Her history with Jorah was irrelevant, she simply saw the betrayal and was decidedly casting him out without giving it a second thought.
I feel like this event is important not so much for Jorah's departure, but as a sign of Dany starting to teeter towards the deep end now that the power has started to go to her head. Or at least that's how I took it, could be wrong. *And yes, I know she did bend to the slave master's son and followed Jorah's advice re: Dario's orders this season, but I still feel she's clearly headed in that direction.
I'm with you man, his character developement is one of the most interesting and varied, with so many possible outcomes: will he be able to go back to the Iron Islands and rule together with his sister, or maybe he'll become a real friend with Ramsay?
I'm sure he'll live long and have his chance to impact the world around him.
Also Aflie Allen has tremendously good with every side of Theon's personality: cocky, and then tough but in constant search of attention, and finally a tortured man who literally built himself a new personality. Splendid job.
pr0cs
Member
I'm not sure you could be real friends with someone who takes away your favourite toy
MMBosstones86
Member
Dammit...the spoiler and non spoiler threads are way too similar. Oooops. Wish I could unread things
sub to this thread. Shouldn't have any issues.
Acting is about communicating information through your facial expressions and voice to the audience. Look at this face:
This is just as she tells Jorah to GTFO. It would be a rather emotional moment for Dany, I think. Her guide and mentor has betrayed her and she's sending him on his way, most probably such that she'll never see him again. Her face needs to be carrying a range of emotions, most importantly probably betrayal. On the surface she should be determined, defiant, sure of herself and in command. But her face should also be revealing signs that she feels betrayed and damaged. Signs that she's sad to be saying goodbye to someone she once considered a close friend. It's a pretty complicated and nuanced situation she's in.
All she's really showing here is that first surface level emotion - defiance and sureness in herself. Because it's such a highly emotional scene, the character would let her guard down for at least a few moments, allowing the audience a window into her emotional state. Her eyes would tell us more than her actions are letting on. But she's really not.
I think whether it's subpar acting or subpar directing, this scene isn't as effective as it could have been because the information isn't communicating the information required to convey those emotions.
As much as I don't like Daenerys, and as much as I agree with you that Clarke's acting is not exactly up there, I can't agree with you based on that screenshot of her face. To hide her true reaction she is playing the part of her title, her regal bearing the defence she has against the emotions welling up near the surface. I'm surprised she didn't use the royal "we" in that scene.
She has to render judgement on someone who has betrayed her, hurt her cause, and that is another reason why she looks that way - away from Jorah, above him, because now the truth is out and she is above him - they are no longer advisor and Queen or Khaleesi or whatever, no longer confidantes, no longer friends. Her staring overhead is partly her giving him notice that he has lost his place, and she will not do him the honour of looking him in the eyes when she passes judgement. As she sends him into exile, he is no longer in her sight, and so she stares, unfeeling, because in her position she must not let her feelings cloud her reason.
Was it a rash decision, and will she come to regret it? Yes, absolutely. I understand her anger over his part in the death of her unborn child, but I am surprised she didn't ask when he sent his last report - which goes to show how close she was to losing it.
Step 1: Subscribe to this threadDammit...the spoiler and non spoiler threads are way too similar. Oooops. Wish I could unread things
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I don't get the hate. I think she's done a good job going from the meek naive girl she once was to the Khaleesi she is now. Maybe I imagined it but I thought she was tearing up in the Jorah scene as he was walking away. I still think she acted too rashly exiling the one man that gave her the most sound advice and acted as her conscience.
MMBosstones86
Member
dead
Mm, perhaps I chose a scene too recent, where it's not 100% clear where her character will fall and as such, not ripe for analysis of her performance. But I've seen this face of hers before. Many times. In a various number of scenes that required a vast range of different emotions. I don't actually find her performance all that jarring. I can go along with it fine. It's not cringeworthy by any means.
But I think it's easier to notice the existence of bad things than the absence of good things. You don't really think about it. That's what I was trying to point out. I think too often she's missing those emotional cues that a better actor would probably capitalize on.
Braag
Member
Awesome.
Hahaha
Just needs an extra part where Tywin says he is impressed by Oberyn's skills, and hands over the crown to him (Tommen will go along with whatever Tywin says anyway) and he rules with Tyrion as his right hand and everything is alright with the world.
End of Game of Thrones.
well said.
i never understood how ramsay got him anyways. did his mates sell him out ? one of them knocked him out and that was it. i assume they tried to bargain with ramsay and he killed them ?
Yep. The Iron Born dudes KO'd Theon after his big speech then gave him up to the Bolton army in exchange for being allowed to bail out of Winterfell unharmed.
I need to watch season 2 again, but why would the Bolton's army care for Theon after he attacked Winterfell? You'd think they would be pretty happy about that since they don't give a shit about the Starks.
BananasWithGuns
Member
The Ironborn still held a presence in the north and Roose Bolton wanted to use Theon as a bargaining chip against Balon Greyjoy. Although after the flaying that pretty much fell apart as Balon essentially doesn't care about Theon now that he can't extend the family line.
SocksAndShoes
Banned
I just wanted to leave this here because it's fucking incredible.
I just wanted to leave this here because it's fucking incredible.
Wow...that hair though.
Dirtyshubb
Member
You mean the family that actually had him as a hostage, and never accepted him as part of that family?
If you were torn from your family as a child and was brought up knowing you would never be accepted wouldn't you want to try reconnect with your actual family, especially in the situation he was put in by his father.
Theon for me is probably the person I feel sorry for the most, such a tragic story and I hope one day we see him reclaim himself and take ramsey out brutally but being this show who knows if that will happen.
My favorite thing isn't even the hair, it's that even back then he had that "fuck you, pay me" look of disdain on his face. Classic Dink.
I would write to Martin, but seeing as to how the story is progressing right now, he'd probably laugh his head off and write 10 more scenes like that to rub it in.
It is getting way too predictable and annoying. First time it happened you're just thinking, "man, this really sucks. So close." Second time it happens, "wow again? lol Starks." Third time it happens, "now wait a god damn minute!"Better start writing then
I also love the "entitlement" accusations. So you're telling me the one person vying for the Iron Throne who:
- Came from nothing after her family's brutal removal from power.
- Has had a hit on her head since birth.
- Who has spent her entire life with no mother, no father, no relatives of any kind besides her crazy ass balls brother.
- The person that was essentially sold off by her brother in exchange for an army.
- A person who has lost both her husband and her unborn son to treachery.
- Who has had most of her husband's Khalasar abandon her at his death. Leaving her with nothing more than her personal guard and a few stragglers, while stranded in the middle of a desert wasteland.
Oh I can't wait for her to get bitch slapped by karma; wipe that damn annoying smirk she does, clean off her face. Please HBO let me write her family's demise, please. I would imagine it going a little something like this:
After countless years of being under the thumbs of the Starks of Winterfell, Roose Bolton had finally put an end to their reign. In a move part genius, part meticulous planning, and part extreme luck; Roose had engineered the most ruthless overthrow of a dynastic name, since Harren the Black and his entire family were roasted alive by Aegon the Conqueror's dragons at Harrenhal. Roose Bolton had secured his family's legacy in the history books. The Boltons were now a major house and had achieved the enviable status of being amongst the 1% of Westeros. Roose remembered the old saying, "there must always be a Stark in Winterfell", and quietly contemplated whether he should have brought along the skull of Robb Stark, the last scion of this once proud house. That should satisfy that rubbish old saying he bemused to himself. Although the Boltons now succeeded their former liege lords in becoming the Wardens of the North, Winterfell, the crown jewel of the North, lay in ruins. The Boltons decided to set up residence in the very hold of their vanquished foes, and to the dismay of all of Stark-Gaf, Winterfell was to be the Bolton's new seat of power. Roose set out to once again make whole, this ancient castle.
Years had gone by, and slowly with a precise pace and planning, Winterfell had risen like a phoenix from the ashes. The great city had again become the principal center of power in the North, and the Boltons wanted the entirety of Westeros to come and marvel at their fortitude and will to overcome all odds. Ravens were sent out to all corners of the realm, proclaiming a grand invite to the new and restored Winterfell. From all across Westeros, the major families of the land had come to the Great City of the North to take part in what was promised to be the biggest party in years. Bigger than Robert Baratheon's "out with the Targs, summer of the Stags" coronation blast? you ask. Yes, the Boltons were promising a party that would eclipse even that. But not all who had come were joyful that they had to be there. One family, The Lannisters, were extremely annoyed with these new money fools showing off their wealth and prestige like they were hot shit. But to refuse an invitation to the party all of Westeros couldn't stop talking about? Not even
What was that old saying they had about the Lannisters?
Umm, a Lannister always pays their debts...
No, not that one.
Ahh, Lannisters shit gold, I shit you not?
No, not that one either.
When you dress, dress like a Lannister. When you make love, love like a Lannister. When you scheme, scheme like a Lannister. And above all else, when the DJ drops the beat, get on the dance floor and party like a Lannister!
There it is.
Anyways going back to our story. The Boltons were gracious hosts, and all around the great hall of Winterfell, invited guests were mingling and having fun. Except for one man in particular. Tywin Lannister looked every part the man most of Westeros had gone to calling the Crownless King, or in more seedier circles, the Puppet Master of the Iron Throne. For no one would be so foolish as to think that the true power maker in Westeros was actually the King himself. Tywin for his part sat quietly in the great hall; his face not betraying a single thought that was going on in his mind. But in that mind of his, his thoughts were a cascading lava of anger and unbridled rage. It was I who put these fools in power. I who had given them this station they so graciously rub into my face. Tywin wasn't one to take any display of power by his lessors kindly. A lesson well received by the now extinct House Reyne of Castamere. In his mind, Tywin Lannister was already at work plotting out a plan to teach the Boltons the finer points of humility. Unbeknownst to him, darker minds were also plotting a likewise strategy. But not to deal with House Bolton mind you, these plotters had their sights on Tywin Lannister himself.
From across the room, dark eyes carefully observed the Patriarch of the Lannister family. Roose Bolton was a man who spent years perfecting the art of being able to read his foes; and make no mistake, Tywin Lannister may have given his blessing to the wholesale slaughter of the Starks, he may have rewarded Roose Bolton with their former titles and lands, but Tywin Lannister was a dangerous foe nonetheless. A point Roose Bolton honed in on after spending quite a few years fighting him on behalf of his previous masters, the Starks. As his eyes continued to look for any signs of an opening on the stone like, emotionless face of Lord Tywin, the briefest of emotions betrays the older man's exterior calm, and Roose quickly darts a look at what had caused the Lannister elder to register an emotion. His eyes scan the hall left and right, looking for the source, and then he sees it. There, on a bench quietly away from the rest, Cersei Lannister, daughter of Tywin, and the Queen regent of the Iron Throne, sat draped in the arms of his own son,
Screw this I'm tired.
The gist of it is that Cersei being a dick craving whore, is putting the hits on Ramsay, now that Jamie can't bang her properly. Cersei sees Ramsay as this nice looking noble lad from a major house, and doesn't realise how utterly evil and sadistic he is. They go to his chambers where he bangs the shit out of here. And then while attempting some light, post sex conversation she says, "I like what you guys have done to the place. It was so drab and monotone the last time I was here." He looks at her and replies, "oh really, then you'd probably like this new room we had built. Come let me show you." At which point he leads her to a room similar to the one he was torturing poor Theon in at the Dreadfort. You can probably guess the rest. Then Roose has to secretly poison and take out the rest of the Lannisters because of his son's rashness (dammit Ramsay there was a plan in place). THE END.
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