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Game of Thrones *NO BOOK SPOILERS* |OT| Season 4 - Sundays on HBO [Read the OP]

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rando14

Member
You're literally completely ignoring the thing where he would be put to death if his father did anything out of line. And since, as you admit yourself, his dad is such an asshole, then surely the threat of being to the sword by Eddard was real and constant for him.

Theon was a bit of an ass, sure. So was Jaime. And Tyrion at times (Tyrion was the one who rubbed it in Theon's face that was a captive, not Jaime). So was the Hound. Doesn't mean I can't be totally behind all of them.

Theon fought in the Battle of the Whispering Wood. I'm not sure what the point of your "was never really put into any real dangerous situations" comment was.

Theon was so into banging chicks because it was the only part of his life in which he could actually feel that he was in control. His identity has been as a hostage, he had no agency in his whole life. When he is castrated, he loses that part of himself that allowed him to have any sense of control over his own life.

Theon never attempted to kill Bran and Rickon.

It was a hostage situation but he was still Ned's ward and was treated like a lord and had pretty much all those lord privileges. He grew up with the Stark children and essentially was treated like one. If Balon had rebelled again, Theon might have been in trouble (and this we can't even know for sure, for all we know Ned would not have hurt Theon). But he didn't and Theon, compared to millions of kids in this crappy world, had an awesome childhood.

Robb and Cat died thinking the two youngest were dead. They also died thinking he sacked Winterfell iirc. Regardless of what he actually did, he completely devastated his only family.

Ultimately Theon really, really, really fucked up. This is Game of Thrones, and if you fuck up you get hurt. It happened to the Starks, it happened Oberyn, it happened to Theon.
 
It was a hostage situation but he was still Ned's ward and was treated like a lord and had pretty much all those lord privileges. He grew up with the Stark children and essentially was treated like one. If Balon had rebelled again, Theon might have been in trouble (and this we can't even know for sure, for all we know Ned would not have hurt Theon). But he didn't and Theon, compared to millions of kids in this crappy world, had an awesome childhood.

Robb and Cat died thinking the two youngest were dead. They also died thinking he sacked Winterfell iirc. Regardless of what he actually did, he completely devastated his only family.

Ultimately Theon really, really, really fucked up. This is Game of Thrones, and if you fuck up you get hurt. It happened to the Starks, it happened Oberyn, it happened to Theon.

Just like Ned might not hurt a deserter of the Night's Watch?

Of course Ned would have put Theon to the sword if Balon had acted up. He wouldn't have done it gladly, for Ned was a good man... but he would have done it nonetheless.

Yes, Theon had certain privileges as a high lord in Winterfell. But there were privileges far greater which lacked completely: love and acceptance.

Theon absolutely caused devastation, for the Starks and for himself. We're not arguing on that one.
 
Did anyone read casting search notes for next season? Its interesting, but I don't even want to mention anything, because I don't know if I am allowed to here.
 

rando14

Member
Just like Ned might not hurt a deserter of the Night's Watch?

Of course Ned would have put Theon to the sword if Balon had acted up. He wouldn't have done it gladly, for Ned was a good man... but he would have done it nonetheless.

Yes, Theon had certain privileges as a high lord in Winterfell. But there were privileges far greater which lacked completely: love and acceptance.

Theon absolutely caused devastation, for the Starks and for himself. We're not arguing on that one.

There are lots of people in Game of Thrones who don't get true love and acceptance and didn't fuck up nearly as bad. Theon decided he wanted those two things, went about it in an awful way, and is paying the price. Sorry, GoT world is harsh, oh well.

Can Theon redeem himself? We'll see, but so far what have you seen from him that warrants that faith. Just this past season he's caused dozens of his own people to put their lives on the line because of him and he's responsible for all the deaths.
 
There are lots of people in Game of Thrones who don't get true love and acceptance and didn't fuck up nearly as bad. Theon decided he wanted those two things, went about it in an awful way, and is paying the price. Sorry, GoT world is harsh, oh well.

Can Theon redeem himself? We'll see, but so far what have you seen from him that warrants that faith. Just this past season he's caused dozens of his own people to put their lives on the line because of him and he's responsible for all the deaths.

Well look, we disagree as far as whether or not we're rooting for Theon, and that's fine. The great thing about these characters is that there's enough grey area for people to have different views on them.

After all, his name is Theon Greyjoy.

As far as whether Theon "deserves" what is happening to him... Well, I don't believe anyone deserves to be endlessly tortured. But that's an ethical debate I would rather not get into here.
 
Ramsey better get eaten by Dogs or something, that motherfucker is vicious.

GoT world is pretty weird, you have Jamie who people see as one of the few ''good'' lannisters yet he raped his sister in front of his own dead son. Joffrey wasn't even cold!!!
 

UrbanRats

Member
X3pf9Pt.gif

This whole sequence made me laugh so hard, when it happened.
 
Ramsey better get eaten by Dogs or something, that motherfucker is vicious.

GoT world is pretty weird, you have Jamie who people see as one of the few ''good'' lannisters yet he raped his sister in front of his own dead son. Joffrey wasn't even cold!!!

I would focus more on the child defenestrating and the cousin killing (unfortunately, there's no "cide" word for it) for proof of the fact that Jaime can be a huge POS. Hell, even his conversation with Jon when they were in Winterfell kind of shows that he has it in him to be a huge POS. I don't know what to think of the "rape" just because from what I've heard that scene wasn't even supposed to be a rape. Overall I just try to put that scene out of my mind.

Jaime has done terrible things. Theon has done terrible things. The Hound has done terrible things. Hell, even Arya killed a random Frey man. But did that person really deserve it? Wasn't that person just following orders? Dany is in the same territory, with executing a bunch of random slavers indiscriminately.

I love all how this is such a morally ambiguous universe (just like ours). Yet the memory of Eddard still lingers.
 

Revolver

Member
Ramsey better get eaten by Dogs or something, that motherfucker is vicious.

GoT world is pretty weird, you have Jamie who people see as one of the few ''good'' lannisters yet he raped his sister in front of his own dead son. Joffrey wasn't even cold!!!

Ramsey is such a sick sadist. The sight of him and the sound of his voice makes my skin crawl. I used to hate Theon but now I wish someone would just put him out of his misery.

Jaime's a weird one. I know he's done some despicable acts but there still seems to be something redeemable about him, like he's not a total lost cause.
 

arab

Member
am i wrong that i actually kind of like ramsay? he's a demented fuck but he's in stark contrast from joffrey through his bastardom and through his work toward earning his father's respect, even if it's completely evil. while i find his whole actions deplorable, he plays the game well and isn't an entitled shit like joffrey. he's actually a villain i enjoy watching
 

BraXzy

Member
I only just watched the episode so I haven't read through the thread.. but god DAMN! I was legit shook after that. What a horrible horrible death. I knew there was no chance in hell that Oberyn would win because it was too much of a good outcome saving Tyrion and getting revenge. I think the problem I have with the show at the minute is, almost nothing good happens, and you just expect the worst, so stuff like this isn't quite as shocking.

It didn't help that some moron in Guild Wars 2 chat said something like "Damn I'm deader than Oberyn" followed by someone else saying "Too soon". But I hoped they were joking.

A lot of this episode was pretty meh for me, up until the end. I hate the Bolton's and everything scene they are in, even though they are probably going to feature more. The whole thing with the unsullied and the woman was a bit of pointless character development for two characters I care nothing about (Not complaining about the river scene though.) Sansa getting her creep on with Littlefinger makes me feel a little sick too.
 
am i wrong that i actually kind of like ramsay? he's a demented fuck but he's in stark contrast from joffrey through his bastardom and through his work toward earning his father's respect, even if it's completely evil. while i find his whole actions deplorable, he plays the game well and isn't an entitled shit like joffrey. he's actually a villain i enjoy watching

Both Ramsay and Joffrey are sadists of the highest order of magnitude. But yes, Ramsay is actually intelligent and gets shit done himself, whereas Joffrey was an entitled, petulant, sniveling little brat. Ramsay is far scarier because he's as evil as it gets and he's one of the most cunning people in Westeros.

So... ummm... if you like him... who am I to judge?

tumblr_n6nle4rpvt1tco6epo2_500.jpg
 

Deadbeat

Banned
am i wrong that i actually kind of like ramsay? he's a demented fuck but he's in stark contrast from joffrey through his bastardom and through his work toward earning his father's respect, even if it's completely evil. while i find his whole actions deplorable, he plays the game well and isn't an entitled shit like joffrey. he's actually a villain i enjoy watching
Yes agreed. Im more in the boat of 'if other characters cant smarten up then fuck em let Ramsay go to town' mindset.
 

Revolver

Member
Both Ramsay and Joffrey are sadists of the highest order of magnitude. But yes, Ramsay is actually intelligent and gets shit done himself, whereas Joffrey was an entitled, petulant, sniveling little brat. Ramsay is far scarier because he's as evil as it gets and he's one of the most cunning people in Westeros.

So... ummm... if you like him... who am I to judge?

Exactly. He's far scarier than Joffrey ever was plus he's not an entitled inbred lackwit.
 
I liked it. She actually looked terrifying to me.

As terrifying as a high school sorority girl at a party. If you are going to go for the deadpan expression while communicating something very distressing and call it "acting" (which dany 's actress usually goes for), you need to study John Malkovich to understand how to do it perfectly.

She needs acting classes.
 

Nameless

Member
Ramsay >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Reek >>>>>>>>> Theon.

Said it before but Ramsay should be lauded by all for making Theon Greyjoy a fundamentally better person. Call it, addition by subtraction.

xugtOaC.gif
 
am i wrong that i actually kind of like ramsay? he's a demented fuck but he's in stark contrast from joffrey through his bastardom and through his work toward earning his father's respect, even if it's completely evil. while i find his whole actions deplorable, he plays the game well and isn't an entitled shit like joffrey. he's actually a villain i enjoy watching

I like Ramsay, I however fear him. I wouldn't even like to be in the same country as him.
 
The botched rescue was one of the few scenes in GoT I have thought poorly done. There was no reason for the rescue party to sit and watch a guy slowly unlock a clunky lock. It's not like they had guns trained on them.

It reminded me of Kevin Costner's last scene in Man of Steel.
 

Seik

Banned
Her rescue is the most anti-climatic part of the entire season.She basically give up Lol.

Can't blame her, after being bit by her own brainwashed brother.

Even if they would take him by force I don't think he could be salvageable at this point.

''I'M REEK! MY NAME IS REEK!''

Seeing him saying ''Can we go home now?'' to Ramsay in the last episode was even more of a solid proof.

Their father probably would have tried to get him killed after that anyway, he didn't want him to be saved in the first place since he lost his junk.
 
Her rescue is the most anti-climatic part of the entire season.She basically give up Lol.

In all fairness, I think the reason she gave up was because when she saw Reek, she came to the conclusion that her brother was already dead, and it wasn't worth further risk to her own life.

I thought that whole Bolton / Ironborn fight was poorly done. My gripe is just with the logistics of the fighting itself. But I thought the whole Reek / Yara / Ramsay dynamic made sense, which ultimately is far more important.
 

Nameless

Member
Her rescue is the most anti-climatic part of the entire season.She basically give up Lol.

The botched rescue was one of the few scenes in GoT I have thought poorly done. There was no reason for the rescue party to sit and watch a guy slowly unlock a clunky lock. It's not like they had guns trained on them.

It reminded me of Kevin Costner's last scene in Man of Steel.

-Reek was terrified and fought with every thing he had not to go with them.
-Reek bit Yara when she tried to take him by force.
-They still would have ran into Ramsay and his men had they knocked Reek out immediately and tried to carry him.
-They were outnumbered and outmatched on hostile territory before the hounds were released.
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GoT5-1-Theon-Bites-Yara.gif

Yara wisely wanted no part of Ramsay who would have slaughtered her and her remaining men.


What else could they have realistically done in that situation? Putting up more of a fight was pointless, especially given how Theon was a mere shell of the person they were trying to rescue. The editing of their escape was a bit odd and abrupt, but I have no problems with how the scene progressed otherwise.
 
Comeuppance, why? Hasn't she suffered plenty? Think about what she's had to endure. She lost her mother tragically as a child, the circumstances of which caused her to develop a deep seeded hatred for the baby her mother died having. Being raised motherless by stern father who didn't love his children the way children want & need to be loved no doubt contributed to her forging an unnaturally close bond with her twin brother. A relationship that would grow more and more perverse until culminating with said twin brother raping Cersei at the foot of their dead bastard son's corpse....but that's jumping ahead.

It's important to note that in this world a high born woman's only real value is as a potential wife & mother. But when Cersei is offered to the Targaryens as a bride for Prince Rhaegar, the Mad King rejects the notion so harshly that Tywin resigns as Hand after two decades and rides home. After the war, she is deemed good enough by King Robert, a sad drunken man who was so hopelessly in love with a dead woman that he was incapable of loving his new wife. Still, she gave him an heir, a true heir, a beautiful black haired baby boy. But as if to cement her and Robert's doomed, loveless, marriage, their baby died. She lost her first born, and years later would lose her second. Even now, despite all the burden she bears, she's been forced into yet another ill-fated arrangement, this time with a gay man.

She's ruthless, greedy and manipulative sure, but wouldn't you expect that so much time in a harsh environments under extreme conditions would erode the positive aspects of a person and leave them cold and hardened? Cersei is one of the most sympathetic characters on the show. People only hate her because she's pitted against(and crushes) beloved characters.
No, she's hated because she's a pretty terrible human being. Not quite the level of Joffrey and Ramsay who are completely sadistic and insane, but certainly quite bad. Isn't it implied that she killed her children that were Roberts other than the ones she had with her brother? She said she wanted to love him, but he said the dead Stark's name on their first night, which ended the whole thing. It's even implied she told her cousin to kill her husband. In case you forgot, it's the one she also fucks. Can't have Cersei fucking anyone outside the family, that'd be gross. On top of that, she raised a complete lunatic and did nothing but push him more and more that way instead of trying to nurture him into an actual human being.

Spare me her turning into this cold person. This is the same person who as a child grabbed her own brother's dick trying to squeeze it off while stating that she hopes he dies very soon. You could argue she's still a child, but she has the same mentality even now.

What characters has she actually crushed? My only concern is that I don't know what episode things will turn on her. I'd really like to have a drink in hand for the occasion. Saying that, she's still a very interesting character. Fantastic really.
 

Svafnir

Member
Ramsay is one of my favourite characters. The whole scene of theons sister coming to save him was pointless, but it had the redeeming quality of Ramsay shirtless and acting like a badass.

I enjoy evil and interesting characters.
 
I like Ramsay the same as I liked Joffrey. I like to hate them. Joffrey's death was one of the few poetic justice moments in the series we've received. The amount of hate I had for him made it that much sweeter. I don't hate Ramsay as much as Joffrey (mostly because I don't have much sympathy for Theon beyond thinking his punishment is something nobody should suffer), but he's so evil I can't help but want to see him die. I hope it's a stark that gets him too.
 

terrene

Banned
I do like the Boltons in one sense. I tend to think that they mark a shift from the Lannisters being the primary "villains" to the Boltons. I have a sense that the Lannister arc is completing. Stannis and Davos talking about a post-Tywin world with the Iron Bank, and the Boltons owning such a huge expanse of land, the infighting, the legacy being jeopardized, their asses being broke, so many with their eyes on the Iron Throne... The Lannisters don't have any plot armor left, really. Which is why I feel like Tyrion could survive all this. Someone felt his arc was finished because "where would he go from here?" Well, any surviving Lannisters are going to have to scatter to the winds anyway, and there's no love lost between Tyrion and Cersei/Tywin, so how about: "anywhere else?" Hell, Stannis watched Tyrion destroy his entire ship fleet - maybe he'd take Tyrion in if he wanted to flip. But Tywin has never been weaker, none of his plans are going to work out after Tyrion spoiled Jamie's plea bargain, and it seems like Twin's usefulness (in terms of the plot) is just about expired.

I think the Boltons are going to make great villains in the next season. They are fucking ruthless. So I like them in that sense, and in the sense that their ascendance is coinciding with the unraveling of the (overdue for an ass-whooping) Lannisters. I wanna see Tywin's smug little face cringe in pain and know that nobody is going to carry his shitty name, and he is dying a broke-ass failure.
 

Nameless

Member
No, she's hated because she's a pretty terrible human being. Not quite the level of Joffrey and Ramsay who are completely sadistic and insane, but certainly quite bad. Isn't it implied that she killed her children that were Roberts other than the ones she had with her brother? She said she wanted to love him, but he said the dead Stark's name on their first night, which ended the whole thing. It's even implied she told her cousin to kill her husband. In case you forgot, it's the one she also fucks. Can't have Cersei fucking anyone outside the family, that'd be gross. On top of that, she raised a complete lunatic and did nothing but push him more and more that way instead of trying to nurture him into an actual human being.

Spare me her turning into this cold person. This is the same person who as a child grabbed her own brother's dick trying to squeeze it off while stating that she hopes he dies very soon. You could argue she's still a child, but she has the same mentality even now.

What characters has she actually crushed? My only concern is that I don't know what episode things will turn on her. I'd really like to have a drink in hand for the occasion. Saying that, she's still a very interesting character. Fantastic really.

Who isn't a terrible person on this show? I don't see any reason to believe she killed her and Robert's baby. Say what you want about Cersei but she's a woman who loves her children. Robert was her husband in title only. A man who disrespected her and hit her, and openly embarrassed her, why would you expect her to treat him lovingly? As for Joffrey his issues were deeply psychological and transcended good or bad parenting. She tried to keep reigns on him but couldn't, when she did be reminded her she was a lowly woman I.e. powerless and should keep her mouth shut. Still, she expressed sincere remorse and regret in how he turned out, but loved him because "on that front a mother has no choice."

To me Oberyn's story added even more sympathy to Cersei's character. You really got a feel for the sad angry little girl mourning the death of her mother. Older siblings resent newborns for a lot less. The fact that her only remaining role model shared those feelings of hatred and resentment toward Tyrion created an environment for them to fester and grow.

Ned, and so far Tyrion. Also it's funny that the way people wanted to see her hurt is via her most endearing quality, which is her stalwart love for her children. It speaks volumes how much she's hated when Myrcella's decapitated head in box is just comeuppance for Cersei.
 

DedValve

Banned
Goddamnit viper. You had one job and I knew how it was going to go down but damn.

My eyes fucking hurt now and I have to go to the eye doctor tomorrow to get new glasses. Fuck me.
 
Who isn't a terrible person on this show? I don't see any reason to believe she killed her and Robert's baby. Say what you want about Cersei but she's a woman who loves her children. Robert was her husband in title only. A man who disrespected her and hit her, and openly embarrassed her, why would you expect her to treat him lovingly? As for Joffrey his issues were deeply psychological and transcended good or bad parenting. She tried to keep reigns on him but couldn't, when she did be reminded her she was a lowly woman I.e. powerless and should keep her mouth shut. Still, she expressed sincere remorse and regret in how Joffrey turned out but loved him because "on that front a mother has no choice."

To me Oberyn story added even more sympathy to Cersei's character. You really got a feel for the sad angry little girl mourning the death of her mother. Older siblings resent newborns for a lot less. The fact that her only remaining role model shared those feelings of hatred and resentment toward Tyrion created an environment them to fester and grow.

Ned, and so far Tyrion. Also it's funny that the way people wanted to see her hurt is via her most endearing quality, which is her stalwart love for her children. It speaks volumes how much she's hated when Myrcella's decapitated head in box is just comeuppance for Cersei.
Isn't it stated that all the other children died or abortions that were had, leaving only 3 which are all conveniently Jaime's kids. And please lets calm down on the sympathy for her in regards to Robert. He was a douche and cruel to her yes, but all this power she loves oh so much would be nowhere near her if she hadn't marry. ;)

She put Ned to jail and Tyrion isn't dead yet. Joffrey is the one who put the dagger to Ned, though she did play her role. If she kills Tyrion then yeah, which would be tragic considering she would get beaten by a pretty average person in terms of intelligence when you have Varys and Littlefinger who would be far worthier opponents to finish him off.

I don't want Marcella hurt, and I hope Oberyn's words about Dorne not hurting children is actually true. That would be quite horrific...
 

Nameless

Member
Isn't it stated that all the other children died or abortions that were had, leaving only 3 which are all conveniently Jaime's kids. And please lets calm down on the sympathy for her in regards to Robert. He was a douche and cruel to her yes, but all this power she loves oh so much would be nowhere near her if she hadn't marry. ;)

She put Ned to jail and Tyrion isn't dead yet. Joffrey is the one who put the dagger to Ned, though she did play her role. If she kills Tyrion then yeah, which would be tragic considering she would get beaten by a pretty average person in terms of intelligence when you have Varys and Littlefinger who would be far worthier opponents to finish him off.

I don't want Marcella hurt, and I hope Oberyn's words about Dorne not hurting children is actually true. That would be quite horrific...

Hey I have sympathy for Robert too. After all the woman he started a war for and couldn't get over presumably betrayed him by running off with Rhaegar. That just makes him an ever sadder sack. Plus he killed by a pig. Brutal.

I don't think they'll hurt Myrcella. They'd essentially be declaring war on the Crown. While Tommen/Tywin could rally the entire all the kingdoms against them, the Riverlands and the Reach would probably be enough.
 
Ned would not have killed Theon if Balon rebelled, Ned tries to avoid bloodshed whenever he could. He even gave Cersei a chance to flee KL with Joffrey and her other kids because he didn't want to see them die,

Had Balon rebelled again, Ned would have joined the effort to put down the rebellion again, probably execute Balon, and install Theon as the next Lord of the Iron Islands.

Theon realized this when he admitted that that Ned was his "real father". That Ned actually cared more for him than Balon ever did.
 

Nameless

Member
My girlfriend and I filmed our reactions (as is the fashion) to the duel. It's made us laugh, so I thought I'd upload it and share it with you guys. Enjoy our misery.

http://youtu.be/wG9E3N0J3oo

Haha this is great. You make the exact same sound as Maester Luwin when he thinks Theon killed Bran & Rickon.

Gotta ask, did your girlfriend actually see the red wedding or did she listen to it?
 
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