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[chicko1983]

Robert made the point in season one on the dangers of a united army and the overall instability of the realm, as did Jorah on what people want, which is simply to be safe, fed, and happy. A lot of blood will be spilled with Dany rolls over, but she's quite likely to be sympathetic to any who'll kneel, of which will be plenty if she has a gigantic fuck off army, reputation for kindness towards her people, and three dragons ruining shit. You'd have a lot of houses who couldn't give a fuck about who is currently on the throne, maybe even want it themselves, making a correct assumption that fighting her spells doom.

Divide and conquer, and all that. The more fractured the realm is, ironically a fault of their own, the easier she'll steamroll over them.

But given we're four seasons in and she's still wandering fictional Middle East freeing slaves while her dragons grow I suspect her character arc does not involve simply travelling to Westeros and starting a war. My hunch is that her arrival will coincide with a whole heap of other shit going on, like the white walkers.

Well the drangonstone knife is what killed the whitewalke by Sam and the white walkers can also be burned.

I assume the dragons and dany go to the west once the white walkers are there and she defeats them.

The rest of the story is essentially filler I guess, haha.

Unless, like i suggested earlier, that bran is the only one who can control the dragons with his mind. That would make sense on why even have the starcs story.

 

[Phoenician_Viking]

Arya Sansa and Bran are going on different paths. I wonder if they will meet this season. Maybe they will become enemies in the future lol.

Arya is too awesome. She is too clever as well.

 

[Benzychenz]

I feel like there's too many plot lines in each episode.

Like in todays episode nothing of significance really happened, it just had a little bit in each of the stories, whereas last weeks had the wedding for the majority of the time which was really good.

I just think it'd be more interesting if we had like a whole episode focused on Dany and we could get invested in what's going on with her, then an episode all about the politics in King's Landing etc. Or at most 2-3 stories per episode.

 

[real_slime]

Well, according to the director Alex Graves Jamie's rape of Cersei was supposed to be read as consensual in some way. Don't know what kind of crazy standards the creators have for consent, but mine isn't 'no no, don't, stop, stop'

Totally just wrecked what I was enjoying as a long form redemption story which had made Jamie into my favourite character. So if it was supposed to be read as consensual, then we have two choices

i) forget all about this awful fucking scene and remove it from Jamie's character development (which is gonna be a tough one to do, since the terrible judgment shown in how this scene was played inclines me to give far less benefit of the doubt to all the exploitation of women that's gone on throughout the series)

ii) fuck Jamie he's always been a turd after all (which makes no narrative sense given his entire arc of the last 2 seasons)

Really wish that scene played out differently.

 

[TheOddOne]

Ok episode.

Screencaps!

 

[real_slime]

All of Dany's scenes are the same.

 

[taoofjord]

Never mind, I'll ask somewhere else, sorry.

 

[real_slime]

Here's the quote from Alex Graves about the attack by Jamie:

"Well, it becomes consensual by the end, because anything for them ultimately results in a turn-on, especially a power struggle. Nobody really wanted to talk about what was going on between the two characters, so we had a rehearsal that was a blocking rehearsal. And it was very much about the earlier part with Charles (Dance) and the gentle verbal kidnapping of Cersei's last living son. Nikolaj came in and we just went through one physical progression and digression of what they went through, but also how to do it with only one hand, because it was Nikolaj. By the time you do that and you walk through it, the actors feel comfortable going home to think about it. The only other thing I did was that ordinarily, you rehearse the night before, and I wanted to rehearse that scene four days before, so that we could think about everything. And it worked out really well. That's one of my favorite scenes I've ever done."

buhh....what a disaster

 

[The Smoking Bun]

All of Dany's scenes are the same.

She's female Moses now. Female Moses with a mean streak and 3 dragons
I truly think the series will end with an apocalypse of sorts with Dany sitting on a pile of ashes as it's queen. You don't really win the game of thrones as it's a never-ending cycle. The best option is to destroy the game

 

[EatChildren]

If Graces intended it to be consensual he fucked it up royally. This is very annoying. Either the scene is in the book and is consensual (and thus fucked up for different reasons) and they've messed up the TV interpretation of it despite trying to stay faithful, or they added it themselves with the intent of it being some messed up consensual rough sex for whatever character building reasons. I don't want to get into book discussion because it's strictly against the rules, I haven't read the book, and I don't believe adaptations need to be 100% faithful to the books (they shouldn't be, in my opinion). So I'll just leave it at this: Alex Graces directed a sex scene he intended to be consensual yet has been received as nothing like that. Jamie will be perceived as a rapist by most of the audience, and it's incredibly frustrating to know this isn't supposed to be true.

 

[The Smoking Bun]

If Graces intended it to be consensual he fucked it up royally. This is very annoying. Either the scene is in the book and is consensual (and thus fucked up for different reasons) and they've messed up the TV interpretation of it despite trying to stay faithful, or they added it themselves with the intent of it being some messed up consensual rough sex for whatever character building reasons. I don't want to get into book discussion because it's strictly against the rules, I haven't read the book, and I don't believe adaptations need to be 100% faithful to the books (they shouldn't be, in my opinion). So I'll just leave it at this: Alex Graces directed a sex scene he intended to be consensual yet has been received as nothing like that. Jamie will be perceived as a rapist by most of the audience, and it's incredibly frustrating to know this isn't supposed to be true.

It's like they dump all the character development and make him return to his old ways
Really disliked the scene and will make it harder for casual fans to like the guy
I generally read up on the differences and how scenes play out in the books so it pissed me off to no end to see it so poorly handled.

Was Joffery's body even cold before they decided to try make Joffery 2.0? [/sarcasm]

 

[Ovid]

Ok episode.

That's exactly how I felt. It furthered everyone's storyline that's about it.

I wish we got more scenes of the fallout of Joffrey's death.

It's like they dump all the character development and make him return to his old ways
Really disliked the scene and will make it harder for casual fans to like the guy
I generally read up on the differences and how scenes play out in the books so it pissed me off to no end to see it so poorly handled.

Was Joffery's body even cold before they decided to try make Joffery 2.0? [/sarcasm]

Didn't they have sex when Bran got pushed?

 

[Rixxan]

I think Jaime understands Cersei better than the audience

I also noted that she returns his kisses throughout, and eventually gives in - shes merely reluctant given the obvious perversion of the circumstance

People are acting like he budgeons her unconcious and then takes her lifeless body - and thats not how it came across for me at all. To me it didn't feel nearly as "rapey" as so many are exclaiming.

 

[StuBurns]

It felt pretty 'rapey' to me, I think it was made worse by his clear sexual frustration in the previous episode.

 

[Ovid]

It felt pretty 'rapey' to me, I think it was made worse by his clear sexual frustration in the previous episode.

It really did.

 

[The Smoking Bun]

That's exactly how I felt. It furthered everyone's storyline that's about it.

I wish we got more scenes of the fallout of Joffrey's death.


Didn't they have sex when Bran got pushed?

I was just making a snarky statement.
Obviously I'm not a Level 100 Grand Snark-Master like Tyrion : )

 

[real_slime]

I really don't like the use of 'rapey' cos it implies an ambiguity to the idea of consent which isn't there. You either give consent or you don't. Cersei may have been relenting physically slightly, but she was audibly and repeating telling Jamie to stop. He refused to stop and said 'I don't care' twice. So he's raping her - that's what is going on, any nonsense Alex Graves thinks about it 'becoming consensual later' doesn't negate what he's already done by forcing this encounter physically. There is a way to do this scene where Cersei is hesistant to have sex with him because they're right next to Joffrey, but gives in to her own desire and takes active part in having sex, and this scene just fucked that up completely.

I'm sympathetic to the desire to have Jamie not have raped her, I really wish it wasn't it didn't play out that way, but this was a case of terrible writing, directing and editing sabotaging a character who's been developing in a certain direction for years now. What makes it all the more frustrating is that it wasn't even intended to do so, it was just really poor storytelling.

 

[Dennis]

A.V. Club episode recap and review:

Game Of Thrones (newbies): “Breaker Of Chains”

By Erik Adams

 

[blitzcloud]

If Graces intended it to be consensual he fucked it up royally. This is very annoying. Either the scene is in the book and is consensual (and thus fucked up for different reasons) and they've messed up the TV interpretation of it despite trying to stay faithful, or they added it themselves with the intent of it being some messed up consensual rough sex for whatever character building reasons. I don't want to get into book discussion because it's strictly against the rules, I haven't read the book, and I don't believe adaptations need to be 100% faithful to the books (they shouldn't be, in my opinion). So I'll just leave it at this: Alex Graces directed a sex scene he intended to be consensual yet has been received as nothing like that. Jamie will be perceived as a rapist by most of the audience, and it's incredibly frustrating to know this isn't supposed to be true.

i thought it was mostly consensual. The only thing Cersei seemed concerned by was having his (their) dead son to the side, thus she thought it wasn't right.

other than that Cersei is plenty capable of displaying that she doesn't want it. I guess they just wanted to show the inner conflict but it seemed a bit too forceful.

 

[Loki]

If Graces intended it to be consensual he fucked it up royally. This is very annoying. Either the scene is in the book and is consensual (and thus fucked up for different reasons) and they've messed up the TV interpretation of it despite trying to stay faithful, or they added it themselves with the intent of it being some messed up consensual rough sex for whatever character building reasons. I don't want to get into book discussion because it's strictly against the rules, I haven't read the book, and I don't believe adaptations need to be 100% faithful to the books (they shouldn't be, in my opinion). So I'll just leave it at this: Alex Graces directed a sex scene he intended to be consensual yet has been received as nothing like that. Jamie will be perceived as a rapist by most of the audience, and it's incredibly frustrating to know this isn't supposed to be true.

Completely agreed. I was pretty shocked by the scene and what it showed about Jamie's character after all the (seeming) growth he's had.

 

[TheContact]

If Graces intended it to be consensual he fucked it up royally. This is very annoying. Either the scene is in the book and is consensual (and thus fucked up for different reasons) and they've messed up the TV interpretation of it despite trying to stay faithful, or they added it themselves with the intent of it being some messed up consensual rough sex for whatever character building reasons. I don't want to get into book discussion because it's strictly against the rules, I haven't read the book, and I don't believe adaptations need to be 100% faithful to the books (they shouldn't be, in my opinion). So I'll just leave it at this: Alex Graces directed a sex scene he intended to be consensual yet has been received as nothing like that. Jamie will be perceived as a rapist by most of the audience, and it's incredibly frustrating to know this isn't supposed to be true.

How do we know it's supposed to be consentual? Sorry if i missed a previous post, joke woke up

 

[El Daniel]

i thought it was mostly consensual. The only thing Cersei seemed concerned by was having his (their) dead son to the side, thus she thought it wasn't right.

This was pretty much the reason.

Can't believe how bad they portrayed this.

 

[real_slime]

How do we know it's supposed to be consentual? Sorry if i missed a previous post, joke woke up

The director's said so.

 

[EatChildren]

How do we know it's supposed to be consentual? Sorry if i missed a previous post, joke woke up

Quote from the director:

Well, it becomes consensual by the end, because anything for them ultimately results in a turn-on, especially a power struggle.

 

[StuBurns]

I really don't like the use of 'rapey' cos it implies an ambiguity to the idea of consent which isn't there. You either give consent or you don't.

That's really not true, they could write a sexual encounter with ambiguous consent. What if she was lying on a bed, legs spread, beckoning him over and said no while guiding him in with her hand? It's obviously possible to give two contradictory statements at once. They're clearly sexually perverted and power obsessed, who knows what kind of sexual dominance role-play they choose to engage in. For all we know she could have told him to come and pretend to rape her a minute before the scene, but that's irrelevant, it felt like rape, so it's safer to say what it felt like while watching than make a definitive statement about what took place.

 

[Benzychenz]

Thinking about it maybe they were going for:

"I don't want to do this next to our dead son"
"I don't care about him being there"

whereas it came across as:

"I don't want to have sex with you"
"I don't care"

 

[Net_Wrecker]

It felt consensual for like a second every time Cersei responded to one of the kisses, but once he started ripping clothing, and especially once they got to the floor, it definitely didn't feel consensual or like a "power struggle turn-on."

 

[TheHeretic]

I really don't like the use of 'rapey' cos it implies an ambiguity to the idea of consent which isn't there. You either give consent or you don't. Cersei may have been relenting physically slightly, but she was audibly and repeating telling Jamie to stop. He refused to stop and said 'I don't care' twice. So he's raping her - that's what is going on, any nonsense Alex Graves thinks about it 'becoming consensual later' doesn't negate what he's already done by forcing this encounter physically. There is a way to do this scene where Cersei is hesistant to have sex with him because they're right next to Joffrey, but gives in to her own desire and takes active part in having sex, and this scene just fucked that up completely.

I'm sympathetic to the desire to have Jamie not have raped her, I really wish it wasn't it didn't play out that way, but this was a case of terrible writing, directing and editing sabotaging a character who's been developing in a certain direction for years now. What makes it all the more frustrating is that it wasn't even intended to do so, it was just really poor storytelling.

Yeah I don't even think that scene is borderline, having now seen it twice. I mean if that's what the director was going for he missed the mark by a huge, huge margin. I really don't know how that scene isn't sexual assault, he tears her dress off, takes her to the floor against her protests and says "I don't care" as it cuts out. I mean if that isn't a rape scene I don't know what is.

 

[Prax]

Well, I think it just shows how toxic their relationship is to one another.

To me, it was definitely rape, but maybe even to THEM BOTH as characters, it wasn't. It shows them both as obsessed and twisted and probably delusional about a number of things.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

It is disappointing to see Jamie take up with Cersei again because it reminds me of how despicable he was (and still is?). As for the rape question: I took "it's not right" and "I don't care" to mean doing it right next to the corpse of their son, and not to the act of sex itself.

 

[Curufinwe]

That rape scene was disturbing, doesn't even make any sense considering Jaime's arc up until this point.

The guy is a scumbag who lives to fuck his sister and she was refusing him. It makes sense that he wouldn't take no for an answer.

 

[StuBurns]

It felt consensual for like a second every time Cersei responded to one of the kisses, but once he started ripping clothing, and especially once they got to the floor, it definitely didn't feel consensual or like a "power struggle turn-on."

That's true, I think it actually got worse, not 'more consensual' on the floor. Maybe her grabbing the cloth her son had been laid on was meant to be her clutching in sexual pleasure, but it felt more like a final reminder of her not forgetting how unconscionable the encounter was.

 

[real_slime]

That's really not true, they could write a sexual encounter with ambiguous consent. What if she was lying on a bed, legs spread, beckoning him over and said no while guiding him in with her hand? It's obviously possible to give two contradictory statements at once. They're clearly sexually perverted and power obsessed, who knows what kind of sexual dominance role-play they choose to engage in. For all we know she could have told him to come and pretend to rape her a minute before the scene, but that's irrelevant, it felt like rape, so it's safer to say what it felt like while watching than make a definitive statement about what took place.

Well, I'll just reply to this once so as not to derail the conversation too far away from the show, but none of what you're describing is a lack of consent. I'm not talking about sexual roleplay. Consent isn't some nebulous issue, it's a yes or no and that doesn't literally mean saying yes or no in every instance, but it is always communicated very clearly even between long term couples. If the presence of consent is even slightly questionable, then there is a good chance it isn't there and every effort should be made to make sure it is before going any further.

This scene was supposed to communicate that Cersei wanted to have sex with Jamie, but it has been read overwhelmingly as that she didn't. This is fiction so we're caught between what was intended to come across, and what did, so it becomes a strange issue which is somewhat detached from real life. The problem I'm having is that the creators of the show seemingly don't know what consent looks like, and have possibly ruined one of the best characters in the show because of that.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

So given that Littlefinger's involvement in Joffrey's death is no longer under question: What would be the reason for Olenna Tyrell's involvement (which I assume to absolutely be the case now)? Because Joffrey was a complete evil shit and Margaery was going to be married off to a Lannister no matter who it was?

 

[StuBurns]

The problem I'm having is that the creators of the show seemingly don't know what consent looks like, and have possibly ruined one of the best characters in the show because of that.

Well, it becomes consensual by the end

There you go, if it only became it by the end, it wasn't at the start, they intended it to be rape. If you think that ruined Jaime's character, that's a completely different issue. You were meant to think it was rape, and you did.

 

[The Smoking Bun]

Maybe Cersei just has an aura of evil around her that brings out the worst in people...

[/baseless speculation]

 

[x-Lundz-x]

Poor Jorah, it's like his Soul was sucked right out of him in that scene.

I feel for him bad, only cause I've been there. As I'm sure most of us have lol.

 

[TheContact]

Quote from the director:

The director's said so.

Poor Jorah, it's like his Soul was sucked right out of him in that scene.

I feel for him bad, only cause I've been there. As I'm sure most of us have lol.

I missed that. I'll have to watch it again but I didn't see him take offense to it, even Grey worm and the other knight (forgot name) were turned down.

 

[BurnOutBrighter]

Oberyn offering Tywin a seat in his brothel room was the best line of the whole episode.

Also, Tywin teaching his grandson about the birds and the bees would probably leave the kid scarred.

 

[n00bsauce87]

I wonder why the Stannis subplot still exists. I can't see him ever getting close to sitting on the iron throne. Even if he did, he'd make for a boring king.

Something needs to happen in that storyline to make it more interesting.

If you pay attention to that whole scene from beginning to end even with Ser Davos and Stannis' daughter, you'll know why this was an important scene. In fact, it's probably the best play they have going for them. There are some things blood magic can't do and from what I can tell, Ser Davos is doing just that.

 

[n00bsauce87]

I haven't read the books but let's take a look what we've seen in the show:

God of fire and light
God of ice and darkness

Dragons hatch for the first time in many years
White walkers emerge after thousands of years

Daenarys is immune to fire and intense heat
"Dragon glass"/obsidian is the only thing that can kill a white walker

I don't think she's ever taking over Westeros. I'd wager her entire point of existence is to drive off the white walkers.

At this point, why even push for the Iron Throne? You could theoretically own 1/3 of the world at the rate she's going. Go for the low hanging fruit and she's getting good at freeing slaves too.

 

[BurnOutBrighter]

Well, I think it just shows how toxic their relationship is to one another.

To me, it was definitely rape, but maybe even to THEM BOTH as characters, it wasn't. It shows them both as obsessed and twisted and probably delusional about a number of things.

I agree. People are taking a situation from a fucked up fictitious incestuous couple who are willing to have sex next to their dead inbred son and applying modern standards to it.

Meanwhile, I find the complaints about slow pacing weird. We're four seasons in, you should know what you're getting yourself into by now. For me it's the slow pacing which is what makes the show so enjoyable. There is so much breathing room for great character moments and tension building up.

 

[Curufinwe]

A.V. Club episode recap and review:

Game Of Thrones (newbies): “Breaker Of Chains”

By Erik Adams

Thanks for posting this, and the other link.

 

[Deku Tree]

Looked like date rape to me. Stinks if the director couldn't figure out how to make sex with conflicting feelings look fully consensual by the end. I hate Jamie now more than ever.

 

[nubbe]

Raping your sister beside you dead son

thats heavy stuff

 

[Tatersalad]

It was a good episode because there was no Bran. Out of all the dull storylines he takes the cake. At least Dany has dragons and she'll eventually do something interesting and we'll hopefully see a Jon Snow / wildling fight this season. I'm more interested in Rickon than Bron, so let's hope something interesting happens with that.

 

[thesoapster]

Poor Jorah, it's like his Soul was sucked right out of him in that scene.

I feel for him bad, only cause I've been there. As I'm sure most of us have lol.

Haha, he's her best friend!

 

[Vashetti]

What a fucking amazing episode. Incredible.

If the director meant that Jaime/Cersei scene to be consensual then they royally fucked that up.

That was pretty clear rape to me.

 

[spirity]

What happened to Littlefingers accent? Thats wasn't Irish, if that was what it was supposed to be. He hammed that up to fuck.

 

[CharminUltra]

Wait, the rape was supposed to be consensual?

Wut