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Game of Thrones *NO BOOK SPOILERS* |OT| Season 5 - Sundays on HBO [Read the OP]

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S

Simplet

Member
dLMN8R said:
Look, if the rape scene was absolutely necessary to further the story, so be it. We'll see whether it was depending on what happens next. If, for example, Sansa and/or Theon immediately get revenge, then the rape scene wasn't necessary, because that revenge was easily justified and could have easily happened before it.

But the worst part was how the rape scene exemplified the worst trope about rape - the real victim wasn't even allowed to own the victimization. Instead of the scene focusing on Sansa and how awful of a situation Sansa was in, the camera instead focused on Theon and portrayed Theon as the real victim of Sansa's rape.

Not that I'd alternatively have Sansa actually be on screen during it, but it would have at least been better if the scene allowed Sansa to be the primary victim in some way - perhaps a quick cut to black without showing any of it and letting it stay implied or show just the moments after it happened. Pretty much anything could have been better.


That's what bothers me most about the sequence. Sure, whatever, Sansa needed to be raped in order for the scene to be "realistic" in the world and perhaps further the story. But she didn't even get to fully own the victimization of that action.
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I'm seriously trying to picture someone casually watching the show on a sunday night and suddenly jumping to their feet and shaking their fist screaming "She didn't even get to own her own victimization!!!"

MikeyB said:
It was unnecessary.

We knew they would have sex. They're getting married. We can assume that he would be cruel about it because oh, wow, he's Ramsay Bolton and he's godawful. Would Sansa enjoy it? No. That's obvious. So the scene teaches us absolutely nothing new. It's as obvious as the fact that the characters wake, get dressed, eat, and then go about their day. So predictable, it is mundane.

Even of we had to have this explained to us, they could have done it the morning after through dialogue with more opportunity for character development rather than a drawn out conversation about what we all knew was coming and ominous music and gratuitous sounds of her suffering. We could have even seen how she was going to leverage this or how she reacted or how Reek reacted or Ramsay's former flame or Roose. But, as with everything else this season, leave it to another episode.
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Are you serious? Morning after dialogue?
 
U

UrbanRats

Member
Gaz_RB said:
Yeah he's a great actor. He was completely different in Misfits.
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Well, he was sort of odd and creepy even there.

MikeyB said:
It was unnecessary.

We knew they would have sex. They're getting married. We can assume that he would be cruel about it because oh, wow, he's Ramsay Bolton and he's godawful. Would Sansa enjoy it? No. That's obvious. So the scene teaches us absolutely nothing new. It's as obvious as the fact that the characters wake, get dressed, eat, and then go about their day. So predictable, it is mundane.

Even of we had to have this explained to us, they could have done it the morning after through dialogue with more opportunity for character development rather than a drawn out conversation about what we all knew was coming and ominous music and gratuitous sounds of her suffering. We could have even seen how she was going to leverage this or how she reacted or how Reek reacted or Ramsay's former flame or Roose. But, as with everything else this season, leave it to another episode.

That's a range of easy ways.

But that they had to make us watch Ramsay pull the wings of another fly isn't the most insulting part. Sansa's wedding took longer than Ned's execution and had less character development. It is approaching daytime soap pacing. It's obnoxious.

If the season doesn't pull its head out of its ass in the next episode or two, this is the next True Blood to me.
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I think the reaction have been out of proportion, personally, but i mostly agree with this assessment.

The only thing bothering me about this discussion, more generally, is the assumption that implying something, or not showing, or keeping everything as narratively economic and as subtle as possible, is necessarily the right artistic choice and symptom of "good writing", which i disagree with, of course.
Sometimes reinforcing a point through shock, even if the point was sort of made before, can have a different effect than it would have otherwise had, with a more subtle implication.

In this case, the scene felt more like, since the episode and the season had been running in circles going nowhere, they just wanted something to wake up people falling asleep in front of their TVs, which is why i wasn't impressed.
 
M

MikeyB

Member
Simplet said:
Are you serious? Morning after dialogue?
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Completely. It would have been more interesting. Way more opportunity to get excited about what would happen next or worry more for Sansa, whatever the case may be.

My problem with the scene isn't that Sansa was raped or that the show has too much rape, but that what they chose to focus on is dull and uninformative.
 
I

IAmRandom31

Banned
MikeyB said:
Completely. It would have been more interesting. Way more opportunity to get excited about what would happen next or worry more for Sansa, whatever the case may be.

My problem with the scene isn't that Sansa was raped or that the show has too much rape, but that what they chose to focus on is dull and uninformative.
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what more information did you need?

You already know who/what Ramsay is. Sansa didn't. Now she has a real good idea.
Its not going to suddenly get better for Sansa just because Ramsay got that out of his system. He'll just get bored and probably do worse to her eventually. The only real choice for her in this dumb storyline is to get out ... or kill everyone.
 
M

MikeyB

Member
IAmRandom31 said:
what more information did you need?
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What she plans to do next. That and whether Reek is now more Theon are the interesting points, not that Tyrion was kind, not that her dress was ripped, not that Ramsay doesnt like to ask twice, not that he took her from behind. That's all filler and shock value garbage and given the pace of the show and the number of storylines, a waste of the viewer's time.
 
U

UrbanRats

Member
MikeyB said:
Completely. It would have been more interesting. Way more opportunity to get excited about what would happen next or worry more for Sansa, whatever the case may be.

My problem with the scene isn't that Sansa was raped or that the show has too much rape, but that what they chose to focus on is dull and uninformative.
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I think the way they handled the scene was pretty boring and uninformative, i agree, however the "morning after" idea would've skipped a pretty major point for Sansa's character.
Being a virgin and having her first night was a big deal for the character, because the "housewife" role was so crucial and central for her.

While Arya dreamed of adventures and in general doing more traditionally-boyish activities, like fighting, Sansa was always the character that expected to marry a prince and settle down as a wife, and everyone else also expected that from her.
So i think her first wedding night was a pretty damn crucial moment in her character arc.

The fact that they decided to handle that through a character that is painfully cartoonish and monotone, like Ramsey, is what really "cornered" them, in terms of possibilities.

They HAD to "show" (in some form, of course it didn't have to be a rape, or anything painful) that moment of her life, but it didn't have to be with a character that has basically been doing the same thing over and over since he's been on screen, and which ironically is a repeat of the previous major interaction with Sansa: Joffrey.

The way things went, they basically had an important moment in Sansa's development (her losing her virginity through wedding night) basically tread the same old ground they've been treading with that character since Season 1.
 
M

MikeyB

Member
I guess I see the value in showing some of it.

Relatedly, I'm baffled that she watched Margery work so closely and appears to have learned next to nothing about manipulating husbands to be.
 
B

Bisnic

Really Really Exciting Member!
MikeyB said:
I guess I see the value in showing some of it.

Relatedly, I'm baffled that she watched Margery work so closely and appears to have learned next to nothing about manipulating husbands to be.
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Manipulating an immature violent teenager and a deranged adult psychopath are 2 different things...
 
L

Lucael

Member
MikeyB said:
I guess I see the value in showing some of it.

Relatedly, I'm baffled that she watched Margery work so closely and appears to have learned next to nothing about manipulating husbands to be.
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Well the reason why she was arrested was pretty weak, really. What the blonde guy said could prove Sir Loras homosexuality but not Margaery lying. Plus the show is inconsistent about homosexuality perception. They didn't hint once about being something against religion, instead looked like something accepted even if not in public. And no, even with the rising of septon integralism, still won't make sense considering it a serious issue.
 
3

31GhostsIV

Banned
IAmRandom31 said:
in this dumb storyline
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This is my biggest problem. I groaned out loud a few episodes back when Littlefinger brought up the plan. To me, it was immediately stupid. It makes no sense for Sansa because of all of the mental torture she endured from Joffrey, plus the fact the Boltons murdered her family. It's hard to suspend your disbelief with such glaringly stupid plotting.

This entire season has been pretty crap though, mainly because it's been boring as hell. And that Dorne fight, how did that make it out of the editing suite? Jesus. As someone who hasn't read the books I can only assume the producers have mostly caught up with them and are writing it themselves now, hence the quality drop?
 
C

Curufinwe

Member
Overdoziz said:
"Pointless" murder and torturing is fine, but rape suddenly isn't.
hmmmmkay
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Related.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...of-thrones-has-always-been-a-show-about-rape/

There’s no requirement that anyone like any of these storylines or that anyone who feels exhausted from spending his or her days in a world marked by sexual violence retreat to a worse one for pleasure. But that’s not the same thing as proof that “Game of Thrones” is generally careless in its depiction of sexual assault or that rape doesn’t serve a purpose on the show. Sansa Stark isn’t ruined, as a character or as a person, because she was raped. She lives, and her story continues, even if you’re not tuning in to watch it.
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C

Chichikov

Member
Overdoziz said:
"Pointless" murder and torturing is fine, but rape suddenly isn't.
hmmmmkay
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I enjoy watching people getting killed, especially royalty, especially if it's graphic.
I don't really enjoy watching people getting raped.

I don't get outraged about any of this, but I generally see GoT as a pulpy show, the only thing I'm looking to get out of it is entertainment, and I don't really get entertainment from scenes like that.
It's not terrible or anything, at least not to me, but they can used that time to crush some fool skull.
 
S

Shadow_FFVI

Member
31GhostsIV said:
This is my biggest problem. I groaned out loud a few episodes back when Littlefinger brought up the plan. To me, it was immediately stupid. It makes no sense for Sansa because of all of the mental torture she endured from Joffrey, plus the fact the Boltons murdered her family. It's hard to suspend your disbelief with such glaringly stupid plotting.
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It's a stupid plan for Sansa, but not for Littlefinger.
We have yet to see what his schemes really lead to.
 
B

BTM

Member
I am actually really enjoying this season. Except Dorne, everything there has seemed very amateurish. It's like they kept all the top-notch people to do everything in the North.
 
C

Curufinwe

Member
Ignatz Mouse said:
I can't, actually. Rules.
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What you mean is, you're unable to make convincing arguments about this TV show based on this TV show. If you want to talk about how this TV show was adapted there's a whole another thread for that. Hinting at outside knowledge, and suggesting you can PM people the truth based on that knowledge is not appropriate in here.
 
N

Nerokis

Member
31GhostsIV said:
This is my biggest problem. I groaned out loud a few episodes back when Littlefinger brought up the plan. To me, it was immediately stupid. It makes no sense for Sansa because of all of the mental torture she endured from Joffrey, plus the fact the Boltons murdered her family. It's hard to suspend your disbelief with such glaringly stupid plotting.
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People keep making this point, and I'm just not on the same page at all. It's one of the recent themes of the show: sometimes you have to tolerate people you despise. Jon had to request troops from the Boltons, and Sansa finds herself in a position where "fighting" means having to live with them. She's home, she knows Stannis is on his way, and that she has an important role to play.

Even though she's been operating in the context of Littlefinger's plot, I think there's a good chance she'll be taking things into her own hands pretty soon. In that sense, she couldn't be more perfectly positioned to get revenge on the Boltons.
 
M

MercurialTurnip

Member
BTM said:
I am actually really enjoying this season. Except Dorne, everything there has seemed very amateurish. It's like they kept all the top-notch people to do everything in the North.
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I agree, even when Game of Thrones is as slow as this it's still a great show. I think it's rather obvious the Dorne team had less time or money or something, but the rest of the show is awesome imo. Even Dorne is made better by the presence of Bronn.
 
J

Jarnet87

Member
Nerokis said:
People keep making this point, and I'm just not on the same page at all. It's one of the recent themes of the show: sometimes you have to tolerate people you despise. Jon had to request troops from the Boltons, and Sansa finds herself in a position where "fighting" means having to live with them. She's home, she knows Stannis is on his way, and that she has an important role to play.

Even though she's been operating in the context of Littlefinger's plot, I think there's a good chance she'll be taking things into her own hands pretty soon. In that sense, she couldn't be more perfectly positioned to get revenge on the Boltons.
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And it's not like she has another choice. Littlefinger wasn't gonna hand her over to Brienne even if she wanted. He also wasn't gonna leave her in The Vale and let Cersei find out. Her only other choice besides being in Winterfell with the Boltons would be death.
 
J

JadedWriter

Member
Overdoziz said:
tumblr_mrlob5Tr7q1se9fcoo1_500.gif

tumblr_n42wsmDWdE1riah6uo2_250.gif

tumblr_n5gpa9CVDM1rl4d6go3_250.gif

tumblr_lqd09wzPz71qhr01io1_400.gif


Ramsay for king
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I love Ramsay. He stepped in to fill the crazy insane character shoes of Jofferey when he kicked the bucket. I honestly want MORE Ramsay and Roose.
Braag said:
Oberyn is rolling over in his grave.
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Considering the state he was left in I doubt Oberyn knows the front from the back of his grave.
 
K

Kenzodielocke

Banned
Lol, GoT broke the record with the most illegal download of the episode 5, with episode 6.

Episode 5 was 3.22 million downloads in 24 hours, episode 6 3.5 million in 24 hours.
 
ComputerBlue

ComputerBlue

Member
Kenzodielocke said:
Lol, GoT broke the record with the most illegal download of the episode 5, with episode 6.

Episode 5 was 3.22 million downloads in 24 hours, episode 6 3.5 million in 24 hours.
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That's crazy. Seems like every year they break that record.

They average about 5-6 million legit viewers each episode this season so that is shit load of money they're losing because of pirating.
 
Nameless

Nameless

Member
Valar Morghulis said:
That's crazy. Seems like every year they break that record.

They average about 5-6 million legit viewers each episode this season so that is shit load of money they're losing because of pirating.
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It's even worse when you factor in the number of people moocing off family & friends for HBO Go. Not having HBO Now ready for a full launch for Thrones season was a huge missed opportunity.

But HBO has never seemed too concerned over people stealing the show, so whatever.
 
J

Jarnet87

Member
JadedWriter said:
I love Ramsay. He stepped in to fill the crazy insane character shoes of Jofferey when he kicked the bucket. I honestly want MORE Ramsay and Roose.
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200.gif


Someone else who gets it. He's gotten better since his introduction. Before he was just some crazy bastard (literally) who liked torturing Theon. Since he became a Bolton there is just another level he has gone to.
 
J

JadedWriter

Member
Jarnet87 said:
200.gif


Someone else who gets it. He's gotten better since his introduction. Before he was just some crazy bastard (literally) who liked torturing Theon. Since he became a Bolton there is just another level he has gone to.
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Best part of Ramsay is that he's very hands on. In the beginning Jofferey just ordered The Hound to do his bidding. Ramsay's the type of dude that will do it himself as well as fight armored dudes already covered in blood with no shirt on. I loved that hunting scene where he chased down his ex...Iwan has great facial expressions too.
 
T

TheRagnCajun

Member
Curufinwe said:
It's only a stupid plan for Sansa if she is not able to use being married to Ramsey in her quest to to avenge her family.
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Sansa doesn't really strike me as the vindictive one. That's Ayra.

Sansa has spent most of the story paralized in fear. She's probably the closest thing to a damsel in distress in this story, waiting for someone to rescue her. She wants more than anything just to be safe. I don't think she has a plan. I don't think she is capable of making a move, if fact it will probably take a lot just to convince her to light that candle in the tower.
 
M

Molemitts

Member
JadedWriter said:
Best part of Ramsay is that he's very hands on. In the beginning Jofferey just ordered The Hound to do his bidding. Ramsay's the type of dude that will do it himself as well as fight armored dudes already covered in blood with no shirt on. I loved that hunting scene where he chased down his ex...Iwan has great facial expressions too.
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Yeah, I hate Jofferey because he's a spoilt prat with far too much power. Ramsey is just pure insane, which makes him hateable in a more likable way, if you get me.
 
J

JadedWriter

Member
Molemitts said:
Yeah, I hate Jofferey because he's a spoilt prat with far too much power. Ramsey is just pure insane, which makes him hateable in a more likable way, if you get me.
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Jofferey was a self entitled little shit who was the way he was cause he was inbred and had shit parents. Ramsay oh boy...could you imagine Roose as a father? I hope Roose and Ramsay last for a bit, especially Roose. We all know the guys got problems since he's so emotionally detached. I think we've only seen him smile during the red wedding?
 
G

GenocidalMarshmallow

Member
Ferrio said:
Might be hope for Theon yet now that we know Cock Merchants exist.



Not the same. Stuff used on Joff causes you to choke, the stuff on the mountain was some vile vile shit used to cause a lot of suffering.
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What if they give Theon Tyrion's cock? Tyrion implied it was bigger and not "dwarf sized" but for dickless Theon I'm sure something is better than nothing. Maybe the guy the helped Jamie after he lost his hand and is experimenting frankenmountain can surgically put it back on or something? Maybe they can use magic to grow Theon's cock back it could be a neat camera trick with a shadow in a wall, like in the Pinocchio animated movie!

Theon's junk, or apparent lackthereof, could become politically important since if he wants to become the Head of House Greyjoy and the Iron Islands like his father said he can no longer father the Greyjoy line so I'm not sure what he can do if he manages to escape or save Sansa by killing Ramsey, maybe cutting of Ramsey's and sewing it on himself?

Anyway, does Littlefinger actually care about Sansa or is he playing her and using her as a pawn for power? Tommen doing nothing as his wife was hauled off to the dungeon was stupid and I was screaming inside for him to do something. Say what you will about Joffrey, he is evil and vile and sadistic and cruel, but he would have slaughtered all those sparrows as others have already said the second they crossed him.

I hope Stannis wins/lives and beats and kills the evil Boltons, but wouldn't Brienne Try to kill him since she swore to avenge Renly? Which oath takes precedence, Protecting the stark girls or killing Stannis? I really hope Stannis, Davos, and his daughter live, the good guys have to win sometime, right?

Cersei is going to have this thing with the sparrows blow up in her face, she pissed of Lady Olenna and that Sparrow Brother her cousin banged her and knows about her incest with Jamie. What if they kill Tommen in front of her and she has to watch, that would be worse punishment for her then death, since she loves him so much and that prophecy from that witch said something about her burying all her children and being replaced by a younger, more beautiful queen (Margery?) after being the queen for a time.

People keep saying Cersei took Mace Tyrell the head of the house captive, but I thought he willingly went to the Iron Bank in Bravos with that Lannister Bodyguard to convince the Iron bank to side with them, how is he prisoner? I suppose her bodyguard could hold him prisoner on the ship to Bravos, but surely Cersei can't get away with taking the head of House Tyrell prisoner? He is a very powerful man and can raise 100 thousand troops, surely he isn't actually a prisoner, that seems too easy. If it's that easy to take hostage the head of one of the most powerful houses that can raise 100 thousand troops, then couldn't Lady Olenna convince the sparrows to arrest Cersei for the incest?

I hope some of the good guys win by the end of the season. If Stannis and his daughter are tortured or killed I'll be sad and devastated, they are easily some of the best characters on the show imo.
 
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