The Silver
Member
She had no reason to light the candle before the wedding.
She didn't know what a monster Ramsey was right up until the moment he told Theon to stay.
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Game of Thrones *NO BOOK SPOILERS* |OT| Season 5 - Sundays on HBO [Read the OP]
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She had no reason to light the candle before the wedding.
She didn't know what a monster Ramsey was right up until the moment he told Theon to stay.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
I absolutely hated that. I've avoided it as an example because a) it was relatively uncharacteristic of the show in season 1 and b) I know what happened in the books at that point and will not discuss that here.
To the point, yes, they lacked restraint by putting Sansa in a position to be audibly raped in front of witness, when both she and the witness have already had worse things to hate the Boltons for. Unless you think she forgot they murdered her family.
As I said, the season is not over and there might be some reason it makes story sense later, but the show doesn't have the best track record and they don't have my trust. So my gut reaction when watching it was disgust that they even went there, and further that they showed as much of it as they did.
Sansa's story will go where it would've gone anyways, i think that's the point some are making against the scene.
Reek's behavior is entirely consistent with how real abuse victims have behaved. They don't just all kill themselves or their abusers. If it was ever torture porn it was in season 3, not now.
Well if she dies I won't be disappointed either. I just think it would be cool if she paid them back!
The Silver
Member
how can you possibly know that?
Netherscourge
Banned
Anything short of Ramsay's weiner being removed by her will be a disappointment.
It would be justice for two people at the same time.
(I haven't read the books, so I have no idea how it'll play out. Nor if the show writers alter the source material to begin with.)
She doesn't need to continue to be a victim for the complaint that her character arc and the show at large have bad pacing to be incorrect.
She could turn completely around next week, and I'd still think what I think.
I don't think the rape was there for shock value. It's perfectly in character for Ramsay, who is a piece of shit. It gave a direct contrast with Sansa's marriage night with Tyrion. It showed how far Littlefinger was willing to allow Sansa to suffer. It also showed that Theon was still a coward, and completely under the control of Ramsay.
Sansa once again is just a hostage, no matter how much you hope for her. She's just a pawn. Whether it was under the Lannisters, Littlefinger, or the Boltons. She hasn't been free for a long time. That's unlike Arya, who once escaped from a torture chamber, walked away from the dying Hound, and jumped on a boat to be a part of a magical cult.
I understand why it can be a bummer for Sansa to go through so much shit, but it doesn't seem out of character for the show. Theon was tortured for like...2-3 seasons? Major characters from the Stark family were murdered in the span of 5 minutes.
Showing a rape off screen doesn't justify the idea to me that the show supposedly went "too far".
Sansa once again is just a hostage, no matter how much you hope for her. She's just a pawn. Whether it was under the Lannisters, Littlefinger, or the Boltons. She hasn't been free for a long time. That's unlike Arya, who once escaped from a torture chamber, walked away from the dying Hound, and jumped on a boat to be a part of a magical cult.
I understand why it can be a bummer for Sansa to go through so much shit, but it doesn't seem out of character for the show. Theon was tortured for like...2-3 seasons? Major characters from the Stark family were murdered in the span of 5 minutes.
Showing a rape off screen doesn't justify the idea to me that the show supposedly went "too far".
I have super powers.
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Simply the fact that Sansa had plenty of reason already to grow into a "strong" character, and she was beaten down for 4 seasons already.
If they go in another, unexpected direction, all the better, though.
I'm not saying it will, i'm saying if it does, the scene will feel redundant, but again, it depends on what development awaits in future episodes, that's a given, but we discuss what we have, like every other week.
Is Theon really a bad person? I wouldn't say so. He's arrogant and naive but all he wanted was approval from his father and it's clear that all the decisions he made at Winterfell, he regretted. He doesn't "deserve" to have his penis chopped off, to be tortured for a good number of episodes and to be psychologically destroyed to the point that you can't really see him coming back from it.
The only time I felt GOT went too far or where I felt the act was nonsense was when Jaime raped Cersie. It made no sense at all and didn't represent the build up to that moment.
Sansa was always going to be raped. We all knew it would happen. She would marry Ramsey and being the most despicable person in Westeros at the moment, he was always going to rape her. It's just the fact that they showed it on screen and it was far more poignant thanks to the brilliant acting of Alfie Allen (Theon).
And this being the point where it's gone too far doesn't really make sense. We watch this show because we know and appreciate that it will be gruesome and unsettling. That's the whole point.
Nameless
Member
A lot of these posts I'm reading
A. Over exaggerate the degree to which Sansa was tormented while in King's Landing. 95% of Joffrey's antics towards her stopped when Tyrion, and later Tywin returned to the capital. Sure she was technically a prisoner, but I need to see receipts on anything beyond a few empty threats from The Joff that happened to her from the back half of S2 until now.
B. Assumes this very fucked up thing that happened erases the very apparent progress we've seen from the character as of late. We don't know that .
C. Assumes she'll now be stuck in a victim role going forward, which we don't know either. As I said before, they could just as easily be putting her in the worst situation of her life as a means to showcase her development by having her respond to adversity differently than she has in the past.
A. Over exaggerate the degree to which Sansa was tormented while in King's Landing. 95% of Joffrey's antics towards her stopped when Tyrion, and later Tywin returned to the capital. Sure she was technically a prisoner, but I need to see receipts on anything beyond a few empty threats from The Joff that happened to her from the back half of S2 until now.
B. Assumes this very fucked up thing that happened erases the very apparent progress we've seen from the character as of late. We don't know that .
C. Assumes she'll now be stuck in a victim role going forward, which we don't know either. As I said before, they could just as easily be putting her in the worst situation of her life as a means to showcase her development by having her respond to adversity differently than she has in the past.
The show got it right then as well. A small, teenage virgin sold by her despicable brother to a huge, violent warrrior in exchange for his army, whose language she couldn't even understand and who only valued her based on her looks at that point. Portraying their wedding night as anything other than thoroughly unpleasant for Dany would have rung very much false.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
Theon participated in the murder of two children just to cover up his own incompetence. He's not a strictly black/white character, but yes, he's done really awful things. I'm pretty sure he's responsible for plenty of other deaths directly at Winterfell as well.
And I don't watch the show for gruesome and unsettling. I appreciate it when it's done well, but it's not the point of why I watch. Hell, I'd watch Saw if that was what I was after.
I watch GoT because of the complex overarching plot and compelling and complex characters. Ramsay and Sansa are *not* complex. Theon is, but we haven't seen that in a while (and I am really hoping we do soon). And the wedding night rape didn't do much for the plot, and showing* it really didn't.
[* yes, offscreen, barely, but where we could still hear it. We didn't need that even]
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
PM me if you want to know why you are wrong.
I find it kind of odd everyone keeps referring to it as rape. In the GoT universe (paralleling our own medieval time period), if a woman married a man as Sansa legally did, the husband has every legal right to lay with her. Regardless of the fact she doesn't want to do it, the act would not be considered rape by any laws in the GoT world. By our modern world's standards today the scene seems harsh but in GoT this scene cannot be considered rape. Probably the majority of married women in the ancient world didn't want to do the deed with their husbands but had to anyway and it wasn't rape.
Even as someone who is perfectly fine with what they did; I don't think, from an overall story perspective (which is where I think you're coming from, based on your experience); GRRM or D&D had to have that character specifically raped. Also, it's worth pointing out that this assumes that the show will screw up the landing, as it were, and not have anything meaningful come out of the scene. Because of the particulars of where this arc is going; I have more faith than not that it will lead somewhere meaningful.
But the book and the show both go to that well all the time, and GRRM has specifically mentioned that in the creation of the series, that's a deliberate choice, because it is trying to point out what would actually happen rather than the way the genre typically portrays such situations. In other stories, Ramsay would be the sweetest guy ever and Sansa would magically luck into a fairy-tale situation, or it wouldn't really be mentioned at all. GRRM (and by extension, the TV folks) deliberately goes to the opposite extreme over and over to shock folks with the horror of the "reality". In that vein; I don't have a giant problem with them going back to that well again, and I suspect GRRM & D&D will both go back to the well again and again.
I agree. Forcing consent is a deplorable act regardless of the legality or time period but I would not disown the show or even think too much of it for the scene they showed. It's how the people of the GoT world are and truth be told it's how humanity was and still is in many parts of our world today.
Funny, I was just playing Witcher 3 last night and was talking to an NPC about writing a book on WAR. I chose the option that the NPC should write how violent and despicable WAR really is and give the truth to which the NPC responded people only want to read about the heroics of it all. Pretty good parallel example from Geralt of Rivia.
YesNOnoNOYes
Member
Maybe people who are upset over that wedding-night-violent/humiliating-sexual-assault-scene was just fans who expected some sort of plot armor on Sansa Stark.
Plot armor is not reasonable expectation by standards of 'in character' story arcs, but it is sure almost tangible in some stories' mechanics. And I dont fault these fans, really. Sansa had been built up a fair bit over the last seasons or so. Her choices at the Vale made her seemed as if she had 'levelled up' for some 'badassery'.
But I'm one of those weird audience who enjoyed out-of-this-world fantasticality when it comes to fiction / stories so I'm fascinated by Ramsay. I would say I am a fan. But I sure would enjoy it to bits when his comeuppance knocks on the door. And I hope it will be a true just dessert, too :> Until then though, he's a villain that's bringing a lot of actual horror into the stories, and I enjoy.
Also, Sansa never appealed to me as a character. She's so flaky. The only thing that made me like her a little bit more was the actress, tbh.
Alfie Allen is super fab too.
Most of GoT casting has been superb, really.
Plot armor is not reasonable expectation by standards of 'in character' story arcs, but it is sure almost tangible in some stories' mechanics. And I dont fault these fans, really. Sansa had been built up a fair bit over the last seasons or so. Her choices at the Vale made her seemed as if she had 'levelled up' for some 'badassery'.
But I'm one of those weird audience who enjoyed out-of-this-world fantasticality when it comes to fiction / stories so I'm fascinated by Ramsay. I would say I am a fan. But I sure would enjoy it to bits when his comeuppance knocks on the door. And I hope it will be a true just dessert, too :> Until then though, he's a villain that's bringing a lot of actual horror into the stories, and I enjoy.
Also, Sansa never appealed to me as a character. She's so flaky. The only thing that made me like her a little bit more was the actress, tbh.
Alfie Allen is super fab too.
Most of GoT casting has been superb, really.
Who is expecting plot armor here? Sana had literally been shit on since season 1. A ton of terrible things have happened to her and the people she cares about.
Maybe it's because of her almost rape in Kings Landing that made people think that was off limits for her character. I dunno...
No need, I already know better than you.
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
I feel like we are dancing far too much into book territory with the divergent and different paths the show and book are taking. I've already seen some rather odd remarks in future tense in regards to storylines.
I'm out till next episode.
I'm out till next episode.
YesNOnoNOYes
Member
Yeah, my point exactly. I mean I didn't expect Sansa to be untouchable, personally. But seems like her fans expect her to have some sort of plot armour because she seems as if she's built up a fair bit in the last season.
I'm never a Sansa fan though, so her weddingrape thing was just meh for me. Just another notch in the ever-oppressed Stark characters, tbh.
I wasn't expecting Sansa to get out of consummating the marriage with Ramsay, but did not like the depiction of it. There were a myriad of ways they could have depicted it that could have further Sansa's character arc, but they instead are victimizing her again. It is possible that they could show the effects of what happened to Sansa in a mature way and not gloss over it, but the previews aren't instilling any hope in that
since it looks like they are using her rape to further Theon's arc while she goes back to being helpless and passive until someone saves her.
Damerman
Member
this is bullshit..
this entire scene was a farce in order to build theons character. the show emphasized his reaction to a really heavy scene at the expense of one of the POV characters.
utter, utter, utter bullshit. And i'm not confused. I'm not upset that sansa got raped in the plot, I'm upset that this was handled so carelessly. there was no way this would have ever worked.
ComputerBlue
Member
C'mon.
Pretty much, gotta go in with the mind of how that world works not ours.
That's what I like about the show.
If it affects you and you can't watch the show anymore, well, you'll be back.
Though I agree this season feels like a dip in quality overall.
Still, I'm gonna watch this show til the end.
They show both reactions.
It would've been weird NOT to show Theon's, since him being there is a major point of the scene.
After that they cut to black, so it's not clear who that scene is going to serve, likely both characters (as it should).
Pretty much, gotta go in with the mind of how that world works not ours.
That's what I like about the show.
If it affects you and you can't watch the show anymore, well, you'll be back.
Though I agree this season feels like a dip in quality overall.
Still, I'm gonna watch this show til the end.
Murder, torture, abuses of power etc are prevalent in that society too, doesn't make it any less shocking or immoral. Hell these things are prevalent in many places in society today too, shouldn't change our stance on these things. The audience responds based on their own sentiment, morality and understanding. Just because that form of rape may or may not have been legal back then, or even in other parts of the world today, doesn't mean it can't be regarded as rape today, based on the context and morality we personally relate to.
RustyNails
Member
Is it possible that the showrunners might modify next week's episode in light of rape-backlash? Like add or remove a scene?
Nameless
Member
You're jumping to a ton of conclusions about what this means going forward, as are a lot of people. Also it being used, in part, to transition Theon's character doesn't mean it can't or won't primarily be used to build Sansa.
Only Brienne can save Sansa. Ramsay gonna have himself a hunt, I hope.
I've never liked Sansa, ever since the very beginning where she lied and got her dire wolf killed. I don't expect she'll die during the show/books, especially where the story currently is. Bran, Rickon, and Arya are MIA, if Sansa dies the Starks are all gone as far as the rest of the world is concerned.
I've never liked Sansa, ever since the very beginning where she lied and got her dire wolf killed. I don't expect she'll die during the show/books, especially where the story currently is. Bran, Rickon, and Arya are MIA, if Sansa dies the Starks are all gone as far as the rest of the world is concerned.
Like what, back in Season 1?
I don't know if Sansa's rape will further the plot, but does it matter? It had to happen. Anything else wouldn't have been in character. Sansa wasn't going to consent to sex with Ramsay, and Ramsay wasn't going to care. There's no other way this could have turned out. At best it would have been a 'gentle' rape, with Ramsay being uncommonly nice because his father ordered him, or something.
ComputerBlue
Member
I'd be extremely disappointed if they started tailoring the show for those who are claiming they're not going to watch it anymore instead of sticking true to the original story and script.
Then again, how will we know? Book readers might, but we won't.
CountAntonius
Member
Sure as hell hope not. This show has been brutal from day one.
Damerman
Member
there are so many other ways this could have gone down...
yeah, it was probably the "tamest" rape scene the show has done so far.
Like?
Sansa was almost put in this situation once with Tyrion. They never ending up having sex since Tyrion isn't a monster and wasn't going to rape a 14 year old girl.
Ramsey, however, doesn't give a shit.
Sadly for Sansa, there was only one way that night was going to end up for her.
And this was by far the most likely and realistic option. Did people expect Sansa to just murder him then and there? Or Ramsay to be like "okay, cool, we'll wait until you're ready"?
I think if the rest of the episode had been better, along with some of the scenes that culminated from other built up story arches, the rape scene would not have gone down so harshly. I also think at this point some people (not as pertinent to this particular thread) are losing faith in D&D's writing merits, and judging the potential of that scene based on how successfully the writers and the show itself, has deviated from the books previously (e.g. not particularly successfully).
Damerman
Member
It's less so about the rape scene itself, and more so about the clash between two POV characters, and the careless subversion of Sansa's POV.
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