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[Damerman]

"okay, cool, we'll wait until you're ready"?

why the fuck not? it happened with tyrion. why can't it happen again? why couldn't they find a way to postpone the consummation or wedding until Stannis started his siege? why couldn't brienne( who promised to protect her) just storm in?

this whole scene was just to get a reaction out of theon...

 

[kingkitty]

why the fuck not? it happened with tyrion. why can't it happen again? why couldn't they find a way to postpone the consummation or wedding until Stannis started his siege? why couldn't brienne( who promised to protect her) just storm in?

this whole scene was just to get a reaction out of theon...

dude, it's Ramsay.

 

[Roussow]

Everyone seems focused on the Theo/Sansa/Ramsey plot being the worst part of the episode, I stand by the fact that the fucking Dorne confrontation was just garbage. Mycellas and Jamies confrontation was great, as was the short conversation Doran had with his guard, but when the sand snakes just happened to go after the princess at the exact time Jamie was trying to take her felt so bloody conventional and really bloody rushed, and I swear to god, if Bronn dies from the cut on his arm (if its poisoned in the same vein as Oberyns weapons) I'll be quite dissapointed. Even if Bronn serves no further purpose in he grand stiry, dont kill him, just send him back to his C-tier bride and be done with it.

 

[Einchy]

why the fuck not? it happened with tyrion. why can't it happen again? why couldn't they find a way to postpone the consummation or wedding until Stannis started his siege? why couldn't brienne( who promised to protect her) just storm in?

this whole scene was just to get a reaction out of theon...

All of that would have been so contrived.

You claim Sansa being raped was just bad writing but you would rather that not happen by putting in some even worse writing?

 

[UrbanRats]

Everyone seems focused on the Theo/Sansa/Ramsey plot being the worst part of the episode, I stand by the fact that the fucking Dorne confrontation was just garbage. Mycellas and Jamies confrontation was great, as was the short conversation Doran had with his guard, but when the sand snakes just happened to go after the princess at the exact time Jamie was trying to take her felt so bloody conventional and really bloody rushed, and I swear to god, if Bronn dies from the cut on his arm (if its poisoned in the same vein as Oberyns weapons) I'll be quite dissapointed. Even if Bronn serves no further purpose in he grand stiry, dont kill him, just send him back to his C-tier bride and be done with it.

No reason to have that reaction shot of the cut, if it wasn't poisoned.
Not necessarily deadly, of course.

 

[RustyNails]

and I swear to god, if Bronn dies from the cut on his arm (if its poisoned in the same vein as Oberyns weapons) I'll be quite dissapointed. Even if Bronn serves no further purpose in he grand stiry, dont kill him, just send him back to his C-tier bride and be done with it.

 

[RELIGHT]

there are so many other ways this could have gone down...

Please enlighten us.

 

[Cybit]

Is it possible that the showrunners might modify next week's episode in light of rape-backlash? Like add or remove a scene?

Episodes are all filmed and cut simultaneously. Don't think they will or can modify it.

 

[Sande]

Everyone seems focused on the Theo/Sansa/Ramsey plot being the worst part of the episode, I stand by the fact that the fucking Dorne confrontation was just garbage. Mycellas and Jamies confrontation was great, as was the short conversation Doran had with his guard, but when the sand snakes just happened to go after the princess at the exact time Jamie was trying to take her felt so bloody conventional and really bloody rushed, and I swear to god, if Bronn dies from the cut on his arm (if its poisoned in the same vein as Oberyns weapons) I'll be quite dissapointed. Even if Bronn serves no further purpose in he grand stiry, dont kill him, just send him back to his C-tier bride and be done with it.

I agree completely. All the fighting scenes have felt pretty lackluster after the Oberyn vs Mountain duel. Based on promotional footage I was worried about the sand snakes looking like some college girls holding weapons for the first time in their life and this episode pretty much confirmed my worries. And that timing down to the minute was fucking ridiculous. The whole scene felt almost comical in its execution.

Edit: Wait, Brienne and Hound was after that, right? That was great as well.

 

[scabro]

why the fuck not? it happened with tyrion. why can't it happen again? why couldn't they find a way to postpone the consummation or wedding until Stannis started his siege? why couldn't brienne( who promised to protect her) just storm in?

this whole scene was just to get a reaction out of theon...

1. theon is a caring guy who understands people's feelings and didn't want to be married to sansa in the first place. she didnt want to fuck him, he understood that. Ramsey flays people for fun and hunts his ex girlfriends with dogs.

2.Because that's stupid, why would they wait until they were attacked by Stannis? The point is to get Winterfell and the people of the north on their side.

3. Are you even serious?

 

[dLMN8R]

I really, really don't get the backlash on that last scene. Are we watching the same show here? Expecting anything else to happen in that situation would be incredibly naive. And knowing the show it was almost surprising that it was off-screen.

Look, if the rape scene was absolutely necessary to further the story, so be it. We'll see whether it was depending on what happens next. If, for example, Sansa and/or Theon immediately get revenge, then the rape scene wasn't necessary, because that revenge was easily justified and could have easily happened before it.

But the worst part was how the rape scene exemplified the worst trope about rape - the real victim wasn't even allowed to own the victimization. Instead of the scene focusing on Sansa and how awful of a situation Sansa was in, the camera instead focused on Theon and portrayed Theon as the real victim of Sansa's rape.

Not that I'd alternatively have Sansa actually be on screen during it, but it would have at least been better if the scene allowed Sansa to be the primary victim in some way - perhaps a quick cut to black without showing any of it and letting it stay implied or show just the moments after it happened. Pretty much anything could have been better.


That's what bothers me most about the sequence. Sure, whatever, Sansa needed to be raped in order for the scene to be "realistic" in the world and perhaps further the story. But she didn't even get to fully own the victimization of that action.

 

[Naughty_Doge]

I don't understand the people saying Sansa's rape suddenly nullifies any character development or progress she may have had.
When a woman is raped, does that suddenly nullify any past accomplishment or triumph she had? I don't see the logic here, not to mention she couldn't have done anything to prevent the marriage from being consumated, especially with someone like Ramsay.

Also, that has to be the tamest rape scene I've ever seen. I still don't understand the outrage.

 

[Griss]

Look, if the rape scene was absolutely necessary to further the story, so be it. We'll see whether it was depending on what happens next. If, for example, Sansa and/or Theon immediately get revenge, then the rape scene wasn't necessary, because that revenge was easily justified and could have easily happened before it.

But the worst part was how the rape scene exemplified the worst trope about rape - the real victim wasn't even allowed to own the victimization. Instead of the scene focusing on Sansa and how awful of a situation Sansa was in, the camera instead focused on Theon and portrayed Theon as the real victim of Sansa's rape.

Not that I'd alternatively have Sansa actually be on screen during it, but it would have at least been better if the scene allowed Sansa to be the primary victim in some way - perhaps a quick cut to black without showing any of it and letting it stay implied or show just the moments after it happened. Pretty much anything could have been better.


That's what bothers me most about the sequence. Sure, whatever, Sansa needed to be raped in order for the scene to be "realistic" in the world and perhaps further the story. But she didn't even get to fully own the victimization of that action.

As much as I hated the scene (and I did hate it and could not watch it live), I disagree regarding your reading of Theon's placement in the scene.

He's there for three reasons -
1) Because it makes the ordeal far more horrible for Sansa and is further proof of Ramsey's disgusting viciousness; and more importantly
2) Because it allows the director to show just how horrific the scene is without having to focus on Sansa herself, which, seeing as she's a young actress, would be really fucking rough for both the actress and the audience. Theon is an audience stand-in in this scene. It's not about his pain, it's about letting us experience Sansa's pain through him, and lastly
3) Because the relationship between Sansa and Theon is clearly going to be crucial going forward, and this event will play a major part in that relationship.

I'm sure that that was the intent of Theon being there and that's how I saw it when I first watched it. I never once thought 'Oh poor Theon' and I doubt they intended that to be the reaction.

 

[Ferrio]

I don't get the "The rape scene is only justified if..." This is the first time hearing such a discussion in this whole series. Sometimes bad shit happens, with no justification and doesn't need to be resolved. Not saying it will happen here, but this idea that every scene must have a specific outcome to deserve merit is bullcrap.

And seriously, If any scenes need justification it is that dorne shit.

 

[ComputerBlue]

I'd like to pose a question, please don't just answer with oh god that would be horrible.

What happens if Sansa gets pregnant with Ramsay's child? Because I have a feeling that she will.

Does she keep it? Does she try to have an abortion, if that's even possible. How does Ramsay react and does it change the way he treats her? He might not even be alive to see the child being born, what then? Does she keep it and hope the child doesn't grow up to be as cruel as his/her father?

This is something I fear for Sansa going forward and I personally can't imagine her wanting to keep it.

 

[CountAntonius]

I don't get the "The rape scene is only justified if..." This is the first time hearing such a discussion in this whole series. Sometimes bad shit happens, with no justification and doesn't need to be resolved. Not saying it will happen here, but this idea that every scene must have a specific outcome to deserve merit is bullcrap.

And seriously, If any scenes need justification it is that dorne shit.

It almost sounds like people are mad at this series constantly taking a shit on them and doing terrible things to people they want something good to happen to. Maybe this was when people felt fed up.

 

[Ferrio]

It almost sounds like people are mad at this series constantly taking a shit on them and doing terrible things to people they want something good to happen to. Maybe this was when people felt fed up.

Which is fine, but that's not a flaw in the story that's a flaw in their expectations. The whole show could be these characters getting shit on and it could still be a intriguing and entertaining story.

 

[royalan]

Which is fine, but that's not a flaw in the story that's a flaw in your expectations. The whole show could be these characters getting shit on and it could still be a intriguing and entertaining story.

But after a while it would start to get boring and repetitive, which is why other shows usually start having other things happen to their characters.

 

[Ferrio]

But after a while it would start to get boring and repetitive, which is why other shows usually start having other things happen to their characters.

Well then we'll have a disagree. I believe a story doesn't need to have it's champions be victorious to actually be entertaining. Certainly that's nice when it happens, but I don't think it's a prerequisite.

 

[CountAntonius]

Which is fine, but that's not a flaw in the story that's a flaw in their expectations. The whole show could be these characters getting shit on and it could still be a intriguing and entertaining story.

But after a while it would start to get boring and repetitive, which is why other shows usually start having other things happen to their characters.

Well yeah I'm still I'm still entertained but is sure is getting a lil masochistic towards the Starks. I'm assuming Assassin Arya, Grand Wizard Bran and Commander Jon Snow are gonna kick some ass sooner or later and make up for all the shit that's happened to them.

 

[MikeyB]

Please enlighten us.

It was unnecessary.

We knew they would have sex. They're getting married. We can assume that he would be cruel about it because oh, wow, he's Ramsay Bolton and he's godawful. Would Sansa enjoy it? No. That's obvious. So the scene teaches us absolutely nothing new. It's as obvious as the fact that the characters wake, get dressed, eat, and then go about their day. So predictable, it is mundane.

Even of we had to have this explained to us, they could have done it the morning after through dialogue with more opportunity for character development rather than a drawn out conversation about what we all knew was coming and ominous music and gratuitous sounds of her suffering. We could have even seen how she was going to leverage this or how she reacted or how Reek reacted or Ramsay's former flame or Roose. But, as with everything else this season, leave it to another episode.

That's a range of easy ways.

But that they had to make us watch Ramsay pull the wings of another fly isn't the most insulting part. Sansa's wedding took longer than Ned's execution and had less character development. It is approaching daytime soap pacing. It's obnoxious.

If the season doesn't pull its head out of its ass in the next episode or two, this is the next True Blood to me.

 

[royalan]

Well then we'll have a disagree. I believe a story doesn't need to have it's champions be victorious to actually be entertaining. Certainly that's nice when it happens, but I don't think it's a prerequisite.

Who said characters have to always be victorious? There are numerous ways that scene could have played out that would have been better for Sansa's character and the audience's stomachs, even ways that still resulted in Ramsey forcibly having sex with her.

 

[Ferrio]

It was unnecessary.

It's as obvious as the fact that the characters wake, get dressed, eat, and then go about their day. So predictable, it is mundane.

You're putting rape on the same level as that?

Was it obvious it was going to happen? Yes, but it's a really huge and significant event. Sansa's virginity has been looming over the series like a big ugly cloud. The cloud finally descended after flirting with us a couple times, it was brutal, it was ugly but now it's behind us and that threat is no longer there. Even with being expected to put it on the same level as waking up in the morning is ludicrous.

 

[MikeyB]

You're putting rape on the same level as that?

Was it obvious it was going to happen? Yes, but it's a really huge and significant event. Sansa's virginity has been looming over the series like a big ugly cloud. The cloud finally descended after flirting with us a couple times, it was brutal, it was ugly but now it's behind us and that threat is no longer there. Even with being expected to put it on the same level as waking up in the morning is ludicrous.

Obviousness isn't the same thing as routine. Traumatic events and routine events can both be boringly predictable. The only interesting thing about it and the only thing that makes it significant is how they react, which they chose to delay in favour of showing the predictable and horrible act.

 

[The Silver]

Oh yeah where the fuck is Rickon? If Bran is any indication then Rickon is going to return 7 foot tall with a barbarian beard.

 

[Ferrio]

Oh yeah where the fuck is Rickon? If Bran is any indication then Rickon is going to return 7 foot tall with a barbarian beard.

Hanging out in the north. Pretty sure he's like the youngest girl in Family Matters, hoping we forget he exists.

 

[YesNOnoNOYes]

It was unnecessary.

We knew they would have sex. They're getting married. We can assume that he would be cruel about it because oh, wow, he's Ramsay Bolton and he's godawful. Would Sansa enjoy it? No. That's obvious. So the scene teaches us absolutely nothing new. It's as obvious as the fact that the characters wake, get dressed, eat, and then go about their day. So predictable, it is mundane.

Even of we had to have this explained to us, they could have done it the morning after through dialogue with more opportunity for character development rather than a drawn out conversation about what we all knew was coming and ominous music and gratuitous sounds of her suffering. We could have even seen how she was going to leverage this or how she reacted or how Reek reacted or Ramsay's former flame or Roose. But, as with everything else this season, leave it to another episode.

That's a range of easy ways.

But that they had to make us watch Ramsay pull the wings of another fly isn't the most insulting part. Sansa's wedding took longer than Ned's execution and had less character development. It is approaching daytime soap pacing. It's obnoxious.

If the season doesn't pull its head out of its ass in the next episode or two, this is the next True Blood to me.

Interesting. And yeah, sort of can see how that what the scene established is just merely enforcing what's already established (ramsay being a horrible villain, sansa being the ever-oppressed). It's a little unnecessary.......... unless if.... what the writers really want was to enforce those established points. Which, if it was, ...... would be a bit uninspired, at the very least.

Maybe they just like to keep shocking audiences with brutal cliffhangers, or something. It's becoming a cheap parlour trick per episode at this stage, though.

This season is a bit of a drop for me too, tbh.

But Sansa fans expecting that she would be treated gently by Ramsay is just .... idk... *scratches head* ... yeah...

Anyway. Here's hoping for Ramsay's eventual punishment to come soon, and to come gloriously.



Also, yeah about the focus point being on Reek's suffering. It's a complicated thing. One thing I know though, Ramsay is sure obsessed about Reek.

:x

 

[Smiley90]

I hope Theon kills Ramsay by suffocating him with sausages

... or cocks.

 

[Ferrio]

I hope Theon kills Ramsay by suffocating him with sausages

... or cocks.

He'd have to find a merchant first.

 

[mantidor]

You're putting rape on the same level as that?

No... the show is, that is exactly the freaking problem. You are female on this show? you are going to get raped, the end.

Jesus are people dense or what.

 

[Rur0ni]

Is it possible that the showrunners might modify next week's episode in light of rape-backlash? Like add or remove a scene?

Best we can tell they didn't stop after the Jaime backlash. I hope they stick to their guns, but who knows now? The show is super popular, and is making bank. The squeaky wheels are a drop in the bucket.

 

[this_guy]

Everybody watching the show wants Ramsey dead, and now after that scene they want him even more dead. The scene did its job.

 

[YesNOnoNOYes]

Everybody watching the show wants Ramsey dead, and now after that scene they want him even more dead. The scene did its job.

Dead is quite fine with me. Even more dead is a silly overkill.

Scene was cringe, at best. And at worst, it's driven some audience off the show

 

[Overdoziz]

Ramsay for king

 

[UnObtainium17]

I think actor playing Ramsey is crazy irl.. Dude looks like he got dropped in the head as her mom gave birth to him.

 

[YesNOnoNOYes]

I think actor playing Ramsey is crazy irl.. Dude looks like he got dropped in the head as her mom gave birth to him.

Not sure if this was mean or very complimentary or both

I think he's a great actor! Very convincing

 

[Gaz_RB]

Not sure if this was mean or very complimentary or both

I think he's a great actor! Very convincing

Yeah he's a great actor. He was completely different in Misfits.

 

[ReccaKun]

Everybody watching the show wants Ramsey dead, and now after that scene they want him even more dead. The scene did its job.

Sansa had no reason to want him dead, all she knew about Ramsey is that he horribly tortured the man that killed her two younger brothers. I would argue that she has the best chance/opportunity to kill him, and now she has reason to.

Scene was cringe, at best. And at worst, it's driven some audience off the show

Hah, I find it laughable that anyone will stop watching after this episode. The number of people that called up their cable provider after this episode to cancel their HBO subscription is close to 0. The outrage will fade, they'll still watch/discuss the show and it won't impact HBO's bottom line at all.

 

[YesNOnoNOYes]

Sansa had no reason to want him dead, all she knew about Ramsey is that he horribly tortured the man that killed her two younger brothers. I would argue that she has the best chance/opportunity to kill him, and now she has reason to.



Hah, I find it laughable that anyone will stop watching after this episode. The number of people that called up their cable provider after this episode to cancel their HBO subscription is close to 0. The outrage will fade, they'll still watch/discuss the show and it won't impact HBO's bottom line at all.

hehe i think so too. i doubt anyone would really stop watching, it's one of the most engaging tv shows out there right now, really.

but i guess emotions and stuff

 

[Gibbo]

I really, really don't get the backlash on that last scene. Are we watching the same show here? Expecting anything else to happen in that situation would be incredibly naive. And knowing the show it was almost surprising that it was off-screen.

Same. i watched it on youtube to get it out od the way, and thought it was Quite tame

 

[Easy_D]

I think actor playing Ramsey is crazy irl.. Dude looks like he got dropped in the head as her mom gave birth to him.

He's actually just a pretty good actor. He's in Misfits too and he's pretty much nothing like Ramsay in that show.
He's a pretty awkward creep at first though . But not crazy evil

 

[ComputerBlue]

And at worst, it's driven some audience off the show

It'l be hard to tell when they release the numbers since next week is a long weekend in the US, but I'm willing to bet that the numbers go up because of this, controversy sells and the amount of media this is getting will only increase the viewership.

 

[JJDinomite]

Is there anywhere online that I can sign a petition or donate to a cause? I need to do whatever I can to make sure people know how vile Game of Thrones is.

 

[Braag]

I watch dumbfounded, they were trained by their father?

Oberyn is rolling over in his grave.

 

[ASIS]

No... the show is, that is exactly the freaking problem. You are female on this show? you are going to get raped, the end.

Jesus are people dense or what.

the idea that women get raped because they are women is what's dense in this discussion. there are very few scenes in the show that were made simply for shock value. most of them affect the story in the long run.

 

[Vagabundo]

Was the rape scene necessary? Probably.

We'll need to see how things turn out, but I think this scene was about Theon more than Sansa. In this episode Theon spoke his name again and for the first time witnessed someone he probably cares about getting tortured by Ramsey. That seems to be the build up and thats fine if it is.

My problem with the scene was how it was shot. That one shot of Sansa's face. I think just cutting to Theon's horrified reaction gives us more than enough information about what it happening.

I got the same uncomfortable feeling when I was watching Theon getting tortured. Way too many lingering scene/shots. Beyond what was needed to give the information that was necessary.

 

[Red Hood]

Damn it, the ending was pretty tough. And I don't even mean the "rape" in general, since it's just fiction and Game of Thrones has rarely shown any romantic sex. I never really cared for Sansa in the beginning, still don't like her a lot. She felt like a stupid and gullible, little twat. But still, I thought she matured this season and in a way I thought she somewhat resembled Catherine in terms of attitude, which made it even more hard to watch how powerless she was while Theon watched. And from what I've read on social media, apparently this doesn't even happen in the books?

 

[Banglish]

Godaaaaaaaaaaaaaaamn.
This show is diminishing my hope for humanity. I will keep watching.

 

[Red Hood]

Godaaaaaaaaaaaaaaamn.
This show is diminishing my hope for humanity. I will keep watching.

Why is that?

 

[Metroxed]

Yeah he's a great actor. He was completely different in Misfits.

Yes, I actually tend to forget it is the same person (because of how different the character is). He is a good actor, and so is Alphie Allen.