Haha, what? Killing thousands for a "rightful claim to the throne" is just, but killing one to save the world is not? Give me a break!
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Game of Thrones *NO BOOK SPOILERS* |OT| Season 5 - Sundays on HBO [Read the OP]
- Thread starter Steelyuhas
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Haha, what? Killing thousands for a "rightful claim to the throne" is just, but killing one to save the world is not? Give me a break!
BananasWithGuns
Member
It's cold-hearted in the sense that Renly definitely would have been a better king.
Also I don't think Stannis particularly cared about saving lives in that context. He couldn't afford to lose men and he needed Renly's men. That was the easiest solution to both. If he had had an overwhelming army at that point I don't think he would have had any issues rolling over Renly on the battlefield and slaughtering his men.
Stannis didn't get Renly's men, the Lannisters did
call_kotaku
Member
Can someone make a gif of Jorah's roll stab overlaid with the Dark Souls UI? That looked hilarious
CMojicaAce
Member
Fuck man, Stannis why 
What a heartbreaking scene.
The final fight scene was great. Though, I was expecting Drogon to appear.
What a heartbreaking scene.The final fight scene was great. Though, I was expecting Drogon to appear.
ComputerBlue
Member
The best is when people say, fuck this show it's so predictable I just know nothing good will happen, I don't know why I keep watching when I know the ones who deserve to survive end up dying.
Followed by, man fuck this show the writing is all about shock value....Even though I just totally said I expect all these deaths, lol.
BananasWithGuns
Member
You sure?
I just checked the wiki and it says most of Renly's men submitted to Stannis after he was assassinated.
Think about it from the Starks' point of view.
Everyone knows that those are not Robert Baratheon's children.
Robb Stark knows that they conspired against his father, King of the North, King's Hand, and murdered him on trumped up charges.
That left one clear objective: justice.
He didn't kill thousands of innocents. He fought a successful war (up until the betrayal) in that name.
There have been few characters fighting for a truly good cause in this show, and Robb was definitely one of them.
Nameless
Member
Yup. He didn't entertain the idea until the way was completely lost.
Personally I blame Sansa. She played to Ramsay's insecurities over his position and the new baby which no doubt influenced his decision to gather 20 men and prove himself to daddy.
People calling for Stannis's head must really have jumped to team White Walker because he's the only Southern Lord worried about the threat. Nevermind he has a Flame Priestess, an island full of Dragon Glass, and will replenish the Night's Watch with enough men to become a true force once again. Right now Stannis as King is the only person who'd be in a position to rally the Kingdoms against the Dead -- everyone else with influence will continue to dismiss the White Walkers as myth until it's too late.
The Baratheon bannermen followed Stannis after Renly's death, and then the Tyrells allied with the Lannisters later on. So it's more half and half I'd say.
VaultBoy101
Member
Pretty much exactly what I was going to say, especially the bolded part. People clutching their pearls in shock and horror at this show seem a little disingenuous at this point, to be honest.
GotchaForce
Member
I sat up when Jorah tossed the spear. Who else thought he had nailed the pretty bodyguard dude?
Yeah that's right, the Tyrells forces went to the King, and the Baratheon bannermen went to Stannis, my bad
Arguments like this make no sense to me. Showing that he actually loved his daughter BUILT his character and makes the sacrifice that much more important. He believes that he had to do it to save the world.
Psychoward
Banned
Not necessarily, I remember several of the characters saying that he lacked the experience and mindset of a king, but I guess we'll never know
The Wheel of Fortune
Member
And yet, Cersei has always been worse than the three of them. Glad to see her where she belongs, and can't wait for her trial.
Sometimes I feel bad because I'm actually okay with Ramsay... although, to be honest, it's probably thanks to my dislike of Theon. I really don't want Ramsay to die next episode, even though he's just as bad or worse than Stannis.
Because that was character building for the Lannister siblings and foreshadowing for what they were to do, not shock value.
Not being the rightful descendant is a pretty small crime when the king only held that title by conquest. Ned should have taken the L, but instead he didn't give in until it was too late. Robb was fighting well beyond the name of justice.
At this point I have to believe fairweather/casual fans of the show just subject themselves to the "shocking" parts of the show for the sake of it and tune out when it's two or three people talking in a room, because apparently their attachment to the show was predicated on being told CRAZY STUFF HAPPENS ALL THE TIME ON GAME OF THRONES.
The Wheel of Fortune
Member
Oh, me. I thought either Daario or the "king" guy was a goner. It was a nice surprise; I definitely wasn't expecting the harpies to appear in this episode.
BananasWithGuns
Member
Not necessarily, I remember several of the characters saying that he lacked the experience and mindset of a king, but I guess we'll never know
I was mostly messing around but I really did like Renly as a character. One of the more kind-hearted people in the world.
Would be interesting to see where he would have ended up if not for Stannis' intervention.
It's been shown that the Starks are people of honor, tradition, and justice. Eddard's actions were just. He was murdered pursuing what was right (placing a true heir on the throne). Robb was out for justice for the crime of murder upon his father, a king no less, which in this world means almost everything (unless you're Little Finger).
Unless I am forgetting previous seasons I have not watched in a long time, Robb wasn't fighting for a claim to the throne - he was merely fighting for the right his father uncovered and to bring justice to his murderers. Right? Or am I mistaken?
The Lannister's got the Tyrell support, but they explicitly said most of Renly's army was changing banners and joining Stannis.
ReturnOfTheRAT
Member
Her sucking dirty water off the ground is one of the better moments in seeing her get her comeuppance. I don't think that moment gets called out enough to be honest.
Because of Oberyn i was worried Jorah would get done in by the guy being stood up by his sword. I mean, he let his guard down to preen for his Queen, if a swerve was coming that guy could have stabbed Jorah while he stood right next to him.
VaultBoy101
Member
Hindsight is 20/20. Someone who had only seen the first episode of the first season could very well cry "shock value" at the fact that it ended on that note.
This was clearly character building for Stannis, as several other posters have pointed out already. The ripple effects of this act will likely be incredibly important to his character arc going forward, not to mention Davos.
As Roose said in the show, Robb lost the war the moment he married Talisa.
You are correct. Robb wanted justice for his father's wrongful death. He was by far the player with the most clear cut intentions.
Tchu-Espresso
likes mayo on everthing and can't dance
How is this shock value? They have shown that the Lord of Light has real power when royal blood is sacrificed. Stannis is known for burning people alive for the Lord of Light, even his own family. This God is behind him being the one true King, and he's been told repeatedly by Melisandre that he is the only one who can lead Westeros during the winter. Stannis' entire story arc has revolved around all this. It fits in his character and makes sense considering the circumstances. I get that it was hard to watch, but good lord try to look at the big picture here.
CountAntonius
Member
Jaime who is the King's Guard leader is coming back with Bron, The Prince of Dorne and probably a boatload of elite Dornish soldiers. Unlike Tommen Jaime has gonna the balls to go crazy on the fanatics and free the love of his life and give her a nice reunion with her daughter. I think the Lannisters will live another season for us to hate them.
Tchu-Espresso
likes mayo on everthing and can't dance
Loved the Drogon scene. For a moment there I thought he was going to die when he was getting hammered with spears. Dany climbing on top was a legit "Holy shit" moment for me. The show has never done anything like that'll date.
I hope we can get some swooping attacking ala LOTR style from Drogon later on, wiping entire groups of guys of their feet.
I hope we can get some swooping attacking ala LOTR style from Drogon later on, wiping entire groups of guys of their feet.
So was it right when Ned ignored Mycah's death (the butcher's boy) and the events leading up to it? Or did he at that time realize that sometimes you have to do something that's wrong in the name of preserving the peace?
Yup. Just cause or not, that was a terrible choice and certainly not honorable.
Apparently, it was GRRM's idea, judging from the latest "Inside the Episode" on Youtube.
Sure, but the big picture should include his core motivations and beliefs - outside of Lord of Light stuff - which he has shown to be hesitant of and hasn't assisted him much to this point. I'm suggesting that he threw all of that away rather suddenly.
Forceatowulf
G***n S**n*bi
Yeah that was Robb's one major flaw; he was a god damn hypocrite. And he paid for it big time...
Nameless
Member
Melisandre's conversation with Stannis after his defeat at Blackwater:
https://youtu.be/0sx8Yu_n23c
"Thousands will die under your command. You will betray the men serving you. You will betray your family. You will be betray all that you once held dear"
She then shows him a "great battle in the snow" in the flames.
Stannis has gone further and further from the man he was in order to become the man he believes he's meant to be. That's sorta the point.
Honestly thought this show was running a little low on villains.
The Lannister's have mostly been de-fanged. Jamie and Tommen aren't bad people (at least right now) and Cersei has taken a fall. The Tyrell's and Littlefinger might be long-term dangers, but right now they're just schemers. So that left us with, what? Ramsay and Roose, who are comfortable where they are in Winterfell? Now we can safely add Stannis to the list.
We need plenty of shitty people for Jon and Dany to oppose when it comes to that.
The Lannister's have mostly been de-fanged. Jamie and Tommen aren't bad people (at least right now) and Cersei has taken a fall. The Tyrell's and Littlefinger might be long-term dangers, but right now they're just schemers. So that left us with, what? Ramsay and Roose, who are comfortable where they are in Winterfell? Now we can safely add Stannis to the list.
We need plenty of shitty people for Jon and Dany to oppose when it comes to that.
One might call it a fatal flaw. (;
From his perspective, did he know? Could he have known?
jediyoshi
Member
Because the situation he was in 4 episodes ago was the situation he was in in this one. Fuck context!
He could have trusted his daughter and/or done some digging.
Vulcano's assistant
Banned
Doran is the FDR of the GoT universe, the ruler we deserve.
Actually, yes, fuck the context. You don't need it.
He was introduced as a bad guy, not good enough to rule the realm. He wasn't like "fuck off" when Melisandre asked him to burn the girl, he was conflicted and pained. It's absolutely in his character to sacrifice everything to satiate his greed for power.
Hmm good point. Been a while since I watched previous seasons.
Well, he did completely dismiss the idea and told her to get out when she first brought up the idea. Stannis just got really desperate as they continued to march.
CountAntonius
Member
Is it power he's after or does he really believe he is the only one who can save humanity from the white walkers. He has always said what is the life of one person versus thousands. He applied that line of thinking towards his own daughter vs the good of the realm. Not saying it isn't completely fucked up but I think he did in his mind to save humanity.
ErinIsADrunk
Member
I find it weird that people are saying they only sacrificed her for shock value. What he did is completely in line with his character. He has killed kin before and believes in risking it all to defend his claim to the throne. He will do ANYTHING to sit on that throne.
General rule of storytelling: When a dude assassinates his morally-superior brother, burns his daughter alive and generally sells his soul to an evil fire god - that dude is not doing it to be a mensch for the realm.
If he survives against the Bolton's, he's totally going to run up against Jon.
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