Alright. Just watched the season finale. Eh. Same with the many people on this thread, we knew something was going to happen to Jon Snow just because he's a "hero."
Not sure how different everything is from the books, but this shit is kinda annoying by now. "Oh, look, there's a hero that you might like?" -- Kill 'em off! It's gotten so that you know it's going to happen. Yes, we get it, GoT isn't for happy ending folk and whatnot, but you need a central character people can related to (and want to relate) to for the "hook."
Assuming Snow doesn't come back (I admit, Melissandre immediately sprung to mind on doing her fire voodoo -- convenient she's back there, no), who have we got left? Jaimie?
Arya is blind, Sansa is still a sacking, whiny sack of nothing, Bran is going to some weird magical thing with Hodor and who else? Gendry? Yeah, show him not rowing and we might have something.
We don't have anyone left, really. Daenrys getting abducted is the plot moving backwards (I think), but I'll reserve judgement until I see it. You'd think Drogon would do something but NOOO. Save your dragon mother from an army of weirdos, but leave the savages to corner her. And I honestly think this doesn't happen, but what's the over and under of Dany getting raped? Clearly worked when they did it for Sansa (ratings!!!), right?
The episode after that had a million less viewers so claiming they did it for ratings is pretty funny. But I get it. People feel the need to ascribe nefarious motives to the show runners when something bad happens to a character they like. It's a way of coping.
Calling Sansa a whiny sack of nothing after she escaped her smaller prison, defiantly stared death in the face, then escaped her larger prison is cringeworthy.
This is my main issue with it all. Every time the show seems to be making some progress story wise, they kill somebody off.
Stannis having a massive army, destroying the army North of the wall, time to fuck shit up, just to die off like this.
Jon battling the Walkers, showing what a great leader he is, making steps to battle the Walkers in the future and maybe we'll finally learn something about his past. Dead.
Kelly-C ruling a city, with the help from Tyrion, having her dragon back just to fly off and get lost and captured by some Dorthraki.
We're walking in circles here. One step forward, two steps back every single fucking time.
The only issue I have with Dany is that we have two seasons left.
Okay, she's captured. How long will that plot line be? Let's be generous and assume she's back in the saddle (so to speak) in five episodes. That leaves her a season and a half to get to westeros and establish herself.
There just isn't much time left. A lot of other plot lines feel like they're clearly winding towards conclusion within 2 more seasons, but not hers.
It will be like a reunion, a little self indulgent nostalgia on the first season -- I fear it might be a bit too cloying, with the "Look how far Dany has come since season 1" mentality -- but I believe the end game of this will be, "Daenerys now has an entire Dothraki Khalasar to finally take Westoros -- now that she has Tyrion, Varys, and Jorah, alongside Missandei, Grey Worm, and Dario." Intersperse that with Tyrion's half of the story of the story as he takes care of the Sons of the Harpy plot, and a few little Dario/Jorah scenes, similar in banter and tone to the first few Bronn/Jamie Dorne scenes (pre-capture and fight with sand snakes scene).
Then why edit the scene like that. That just seem's like a bad call. Don't show Stannis die up close, don't make it too gratuitous -- but shoot it really wide, so you can see alot of ground (with corpses) in the foreground, the top of the shot as high as the trees, and the center/right of the frame have Brienne cleave off Stannis' head, and have her wipe her sword, sheathe it and walk (Or have Pod take it from her as they leave), then just hold the shot on the stillness of the battlefield with Stannis corpse among his many dead comrades -- Completely still, It would have been very haunting, It would have been a tad like when Ned decapitated the deserter in the pilot, except without cutting to a closeup of Bran. Hold that still shot for like 10 seconds, then cut to the Ramsey scene. I think that simple change (If Stannis is dead) would have made the seen better, because otherwise I'm extremely unsatisfied with how the wrapped up the arc.
Hardly first off screen death. It's their direction, he's a broken wounded man breathing his last breath beside a tree. Hound was same, he sure won't come back so was Syrio's death. I agree it was a poor death scene and Stannis deserved a better service here than those two but yeah he's finished.
Hardly first off screen death. It's their direction, he's a broken wounded man breathing his last breath beside a tree. Hound was same, he sure won't come back so was Syrio's death. I agree it was a poor death scene and Stannis deserved a better service here than those two but yeah he's finished.
I get The Hound death (albeit it that being ambiguous to a certain extent). But it's also a bad example (sorry, don't mean to offend, just very passionate about the subject), Arya is our point of view in that scene, are we supposed to have a smash cut to still dead Hound in darkness (implying time passed), it's just not as effective, him being left desperate and unresolved in not being simply killed was kind of the point. It's definitive, but it's far too, "audience -- here's exposition so you're 100% clear that he isn't potentially alive somewhere". There wouldn't be any art to it -- and there isn't any art to the editing of that scene (more specifically the transition); unless Stannis is alive, at which point I still think they should have resolved it in episode, but still, it would lessen the disappointment.
There's a difference in off screen (not shown, but explicitly heard, witnessed, or confirmed) and literally off screen (Syrio style, although that could be justified by citing Arya's POV example). No other significant off screen deaths come to mind, at least none that weren't definitively resolved.
Why do all of you think that Targaryens are immune to fire? My impression was that Daenerys survived being burned because of blood magic. Khal Drogo was a king of sorts and we know that there is power in a king's blood.
Viserys died by being burned by molten gold. Aemon Targaryen was cremated after he passed on. The Mad King planned on committing suicide (or literally becoming a dragon) by burning King's Landing. Indeed, in the scene below Joffrey even mentions to Margery that Aerion Brightflame died after drinking wildfire:
I think it's just another lesson and a part of her training. She struggles with letting go of Arya Stark and becoming a faceless assassin, if she cant see herself, she will let go of Arya.
The death of Ned, Robb, and Catelyn seemed to me to drive the story forward. The same was true for Oberyn. The death of Jon, on the other hand, stops it in its tracks.
I'm willing to bet a lot of money on his return (in some form) before the series is over. Seriously, a lot of money.
Unlike most, I'm still happy with the direction the show is heading.
However, if there are only two seasons left, it feels like they need to start addressing the bigger picture soon to do it right in 20 episodes. By that I mean Dany trying to take Westeros and the White Walker attack.
Those are pretty much the two "main" threads from my perspective. I'd expect the focus to heavily shift towards that in the next season.
The good thing about most characters being dead now means you can focus on that as there are less minor threads to deal with.
Thing is, by killing so many...how many people are left that viewers actually care about wanting to stay alive? Tyrion? Jorah?(who's in a death sentence anyway) Davos? Sansa? Arya? Bran? Varys? Bronn? Dany?(although that could depend on some people...) Everybody else are just jerks.
By the time the White Walkers reach King Landing, there will be no one left in Westeros to root for. Those in Essos right now(which is like half the people i mentioned) should just stay there if they value their life.
Yes, I agree with those who say the most significant issue created by Jon's potential death is story progression.
Okay, let's say Jon is dead. Who will we follow on the wall in his stead? Sam isn't on the wall. Aemon is dead. There is no member of the night's watch left that we could feasibly have a story told from their perspective.
So the options are, to me, that Davos sticks around there for reasons, or that Jon is not dead, or that the Night's Watch just sort of disappears from the story, the last of which would really surprise me because the White Walkers have just become so central.
This is a serious question, just in case I'm missing someone: from whose perspective would the Wall segments be told from now?
It's possible that the wall just falls early next season. The assumption that the white walkers will be defeated somehow may be erroneous. The main theme of GoT other than good guys lose, is that the infighting and fighting for power weakens us. Shireen even talked about it from a book she read.
Maybe davos and melisandre are their just to escape with the knowledge that the whitewalkers are coming.
Thing is, by killing so many...how many people are left that viewers actually care about wanting to stay alive? Tyrion? Jorah?(who's in a death sentence anyway) Davos? Sansa? Arya? Bran? Varys? Bronn? Dany?(although that could depend on some people...) Everybody else are just jerks.
By the time the White Walkers reach King Landing, there will be no one left in Westeros to root for. Those in Essos right now(which is like half the people i mentioned) should just stay there if they value their life.
I could see White Walkers taking Westeros next season, then Dany and Co mounting an attack to take it back in the final season. That'd be pretty cool.
To be honest even though there are a lot less characters, and arguably almost all of the best are gone, I don't feel like that's too big of an issue. Every character that's left I'm still interested in, minus Sansa.
This series should be named the Dirge of the Starks. Just when one of them rises to a position of influence, or they're doing well for themselves, something awful happens to them. And by awful I mean brutally horrible, degrading, terrible, and often times fatal. Even unborn Starks suffer from the same fate (Red Wedding).
I want to see some Stark payback. Hopefully Jon gets revived, says fuck off to his Nightwatch vows (why wouldn't he?), and leads a combined army of destruction. Maybe the survivng Starks can ally with the Night King and just burn down Westeros.
This series should be named the Dirge of the Starks. Just when one of them rises to a position of influence, or they're doing well for themselves, something awful happens to them. And by awful I mean brutally horrible, degrading, terrible, and often times fatal. Even unborn Starks suffer from the same fate (Red Wedding).
I want to see some Stark payback. Hopefully Jon gets revived, says fuck off to his Nightwatch vows (why wouldn't he?), and leads a combined army of destruction. Maybe the survivng Starks can ally with the Night King and just burn down Westeros.
Kit said he's dead. However, I'm one of those people who doesn't trust those words as he would HAVE to always confirm Jon is dead.. He can't say anything else without the risk of spoiling shit. HBO wouldn't have it any other way than for Kit to keep up appearances.
The death of Ned, Robb, and Catelyn seemed to me to drive the story forward. The same was true for Oberyn. The death of Jon, on the other hand, stops it in its tracks.
I'm willing to bet a lot of money on his return (in some form) before the series is over. Seriously, a lot of money.
Kit said that he's dead and not coming back next season in an EW interview. But it doesn't really mean a thing otherwise they would be spoiling what could happen, even if it's just a one episode appearance to burn his body they still wouldn't say.
The Lord of Light has a lot of bark but not much bite. After Shireen's sacrifice, he couldn't even give Stannis victory over the Boltons. Only thawing of the ice.
Might as well had gone back to using the leeches, MelMel. at least they worked Joff off the stage. :> The red witch looking so stupid right now :>
So after reading an interview about the death of Jon Snow, the showrunners talked about how important it is for the audience to actually see the characters die, like Ned and Jon, to eliminate any ambiguity that you might get in a book. However, we never actually saw the Hound, or Stannis die on screen, so does that mean one or both could still be alive?
Kit said he's dead. However, I'm one of those people who doesn't trust those words as he would HAVE to always confirm Jon is dead.. He can't say anything else without the risk of spoiling shit. HBO wouldn't have it any other way than for Kit to keep up appearances.
So after reading an interview about the death of Jon Snow, the showrunners talked about how important it is for the audience to actually see the characters die, like Ned and Jon, to eliminate any ambiguity that you might get in a book. However, we never actually saw the Hound, or Stannis die on screen, so does that mean one or both could still be alive?
Sweet zombie Stannis I just thought of something while talking to a good friend of mine and then rewatched it.
I was firmly in the camp that Stannis dies until this conversation. I don't think not showing it is some definitive proof he's not dead, either. If you think about his last words, though, and then rewatch the scene something makes more sense. He tells Brienne to do her duty. You know what her duty is? Saving Sansa. Yeah, the Sansa that they deliberately showed lighting the candle in the window that episode. So, what if Brienne hears that and then just can't do it. She can't kill him. She turns and sees the candle in the window and just leaves him to rescue Sansa?
On re-watch the angle of her sword was nowhere near cutting Stannis's head off levels. It's swinging down for one. I could attribute that to the directors wanting better angles to cut away rather than actually going for the physics of the act, but I just don't know. His words combined with Sansa actually putting the candle in the window seems like it fits too well.
So what does Stannis do now? As I said, I was just conversing with a friend and here's what we think would be the most badass route for him: He's lost everything in the world and that'd due to Melisandre. So what if he heads to the wall to exact revenge. He kills her and then perhaps takes the black. Then, being a seasoned commander, he leads them in battle against the white walkers... thus fulfilling her actual prophecy of a great battle in the snow.
Honestly that would be the coolest Stannis arc possible through the whole series, to set out to be king and have all this told to him, lose everything and get his revenge on the woman who prophecied his future only to then fulfill that future because of all that madness.
Why would Brianne not kill Stannis when she's on top of his bloody body? Ok so she realizes her actual duty is Sansa and that she fucked up. What's it take ... 2 seconds to swipe his head off?
They had better explain her change of mind better than just, ohh shit I forgot I'm supposed to be taking care of Sansa.
Oddly enough, I would be ok if both Jon and Stannis are dead. Would be interested to see the approach taken in the rest of the story. After all, the author is involved on that process.
Jon Snow
The directors have confirmed multiple times that he is dead, they might have even said as much to the actor. That however does not mean that he can't be revived. I mean, we witnessed the resurrection of Beric from Thoros for a reason.
Otherwise, the whole "Brotherhood without banners" storyline would be meaningless, and the directors would have likely skipped it altogether. Same with his whole lineage story, the sword (which clearly is for a Stark), Ghost, etc. On the other hand, we would still have Ser Davos as POV. He basically was the true power behind Stannis, and is a terrific character. Furthermore, possible major spoiler in real life:
GRRM apparently already told the actor the future of his character in the series. Which would be interesting, if so.
Stannis
He likely is not dead, as you can argue that Pod would intertwine if he is around. And we haven't even seen where Roose is. He might capture them instead. Anyway, Brianne is no longer the person she was when serving Renly. Her time with Catherine, Jaime and Pod have made her view of life less rigid or black/white. She would put Sansa's rescue as higher priority, and so capturing Stannis alive would be a huge opportunity from her POV. I mean, as long she is alive, she can still fulfill his oath anyway. Perhaps she is the one that will put down Melissandre instead. Who knows?
But even if Stannis is done, that's fine. I started to like him the moment he sacrificed Shireen. Because my take was, that he was truly committed to "save the world" not because he wanted, but because it was his duty as the (allegedly) true heir. From that perspective, the sacrifice was truly worthy and he kept stoically going on even when everyone abandoned him.
On the other hand, the directors have confirmed multiple times that Stannis major drive was ambition. So, him losing everything for nothing is -I guess- a proper ending. A cautionary tale for those that choose to diligently follow their destiny, rather than create their own (which is what Daenerys is all about).
Sweet zombie Stannis I just thought of something while talking to a good friend of mine and then rewatched it.
I was firmly in the camp that Stannis dies until this conversation. I don't think not showing it is some definitive proof he's not dead, either. If you think about his last words, though, and then rewatch the scene something makes more sense. He tells Brienne to do her duty. You know what her duty is? Saving Sansa. Yeah, the Sansa that they deliberately showed lighting the candle in the window that episode. So, what if Brienne hears that and then just can't do it. She can't kill him. She turns and sees the candle in the window and just leaves him to rescue Sansa?
On re-watch the angle of her sword was nowhere near cutting Stannis's head off levels. It's swinging down for one. I could attribute that to the directors wanting better angles to cut away rather than actually going for the physics of the act, but I just don't know. His words combined with Sansa actually putting the candle in the window seems like it fits too well.
So what does Stannis do now? As I said, I was just conversing with a friend and here's what we think would be the most badass route for him: He's lost everything in the world and that'd due to Melisandre. So what if he heads to the wall to exact revenge. He kills her and then perhaps takes the black. Then, being a seasoned commander, he leads them in battle against the white walkers... thus fulfilling her actual prophecy of a great battle in the snow.
Honestly that would be the coolest Stannis arc possible through the whole series, to set out to be king and have all this told to him, lose everything and get his revenge on the woman who prophecied his future only to then fulfill that future because of all that madness.
Why would Brianne not kill Stannis when she's on top of his bloody body? Ok so she realizes her actual duty is Sansa and that she fucked up. What's it take ... 2 seconds to swipe his head off?
They had better explain her change of mind better than just, ohh shit I forgot I'm supposed to be taking care of Sansa.
I could see some dumb situation where Brienne thinks she can use Stannis as leverage with the Bolton's to get into Winterfell but it's a massive stretch.
Why would Brianne not kill Stannis when she's on top of his bloody body? Ok so she realizes her actual duty is Sansa and that she fucked up. What's it take ... 2 seconds to swipe his head off?
They had better explain her change of mind better than just, ohh shit I forgot I'm supposed to be taking care of Sansa.
It still takes a lot of willpower to actually kill someone. The scream she lets out on re-watch is more of an "I can't do this" than a scream of... well... actually doing it.
I'm not sure the reason, honestly. I tend to analyze some of these things with broader writing implications rather than some of the more macro decisions. So when I was thinking up what I typed up there the broader Stannis arc would be much more amazing to me if he lived and did that than if he died and this was the end of his arc. That and I tend to look at more reasons for connecting scenes. In a series where every scene is needed, the scene of Sansa finally lighting the candle isn't really needed unless it's going to pull together to another point. I think it's a fine scene if Stannis dies, it's just it gathers a bit extra if he doesn't, and I kind of think they might have been going in that direction. Not sure.
), HBO would like 8.
