Support NeoGAF

[Hunnybun]

Not when details and animations are not on par, it still looks like a super fake videogame scene when in movement, lights and shadows are tertiary when details and how characters move are still way behind.

I always make the example of real life, nobody is gonna notice light or shadows being inaccurate but you are gonna immediately notice someone moving wrong or not looking "detailed" enough.

Animations in tlou2 are more noticeably advanced and "unique" than anything in that pic.

And that's why a lot of games have rtx, and like almost no game has tlou2 animations except maybe rdr2.

I always think the sort of things done on or reliant on the CPU are really underrated in terms of their visual impact.

Destruction, fluids, animation, weather effects, physics in general, responsive foliage etc, they all look fantastic when done right. They're all so underrated.

The weather effects in Gears 4 are some of the most impressive graphics of the whole last generation. Driveclub is still the best looking racer almost entirely because of the weather systems.

I remember watching the Uncharted 4 demo in 2015 and a lot of the most impressive parts were just the destruction and the way objects went flying everywhere. It improves realism dramatically.

That's why I have to laugh at DF et al creaming themselves over Forza. Fucking RT reflections? Who gives a shit?! Cars in racing games have basically looked good for like 15 years now. Anything else is marginal. Racing games will look more realistic when lighting goes full RT next gen, but also with good weather, smoke etc, destruction, more lively environments.

Tbf Forza is doing some of that, but it's also eating huge amounts of power on that RT. It's a real shame.

 

[MidGenRefresh]

And people think that we reached diminishing returns when even a relatively cheap show on netflix blast out of the moon any real time graphic we have now, lmao.

There are diminishing returns

How someone can look at TLOU II and be like "yeah, this is real life, how are they going to top it?"?

 

[rofif]

How someone can look at TLOU II and be like "yeah, this is real life, how are they going to top it?"?

How can someone look at tlou2 and see CLEAR ways to improve? We are clearly hitting diminishing returns.
There will not be another as big of a jump as it was from tlou1 to tlou2. Tlou3 would have to look like cgi in order to look better.
You can improve many things but it will not change the overal look of tlou2 engine

 

[Hunnybun]

How can someone look at tlou2 and see CLEAR ways to improve? We are clearly hitting diminishing returns.
There will not be another as big of a jump as it was from tlou1 to tlou2. Tlou3 would have to look like cgi in order to look better.
You can improve many things but it will not change the overal look of tlou2 engine

Wtf?

TLOU2 isn't even close to photorealism.

Look at that Unreal 5 demo of the rundown looking station. That's possible on consoles, presumably, and looks like real life. And it instantly look WAY better than TLOU2's attempts at similar environments.

 

[MadPanda]

I have to disagree…these machines are capable of sooooo much more….TLOU II was done on 1.84 TFLOPS with GCN architecture… PS5 is 10 TFLOPS with Navi architecture…meaning 14 GCN TFLOPS or more…its the lazy devs, last gen engines, greedy execs, cross gen games holding these next gen systems back…notice how a NEXT GEN ENGINE LIKE UE5 makes games look NEXT GEN…The Matrix Awakens, HellBlade 2 etc… The Matrix Awakens legit looks like CGI…I even got confused by parts of it looking like the Blu Ray movie and mistaking it for the movie…Aloys character model from Horizon Forbidden West Legit looks CGI quality with SSS and hair on her face…and thats a CROSS GEN game

Tlou2 was made at the end of last gen. It's not realistic to expect exponential jumps two years later. Wait for five years more and then compare tlou2 with games from that time. You guys just have unrealistic expectations on so many levels.

 

[rofif]

Wtf?

TLOU2 isn't even close to photorealism.

Look at that Unreal 5 demo of the rundown looking station. That's possible on consoles, presumably, and looks like real life. And it instantly look WAY better than TLOU2's attempts at similar environments.

"isn't even close to photorealism" is a bit of overstatement.
It is quite close. It's just not photorealism yet

 

[Hunnybun]

"isn't even close to photorealism" is a bit of overstatement.
It is quite close. It's just not photorealism yet

It's honestly not close.

It's one of the better attempts from last gen and some scenes are better than others (the horse ride through the forest is probably the high point), but everything I've seen on Unreal 5 so far blows it away, frankly. Just a gulf in fidelity.

 

[MidGenRefresh]

This is clearly a video game:

This is real life Freeway Park in Seattle:

We have a long way to go boys and girls.

 

[Sosokrates]

How can someone look at tlou2 and see CLEAR ways to improve? We are clearly hitting diminishing returns.
There will not be another as big of a jump as it was from tlou1 to tlou2. Tlou3 would have to look like cgi in order to look better.
You can improve many things but it will not change the overal look of tlou2 engine

A TLOU using the kind of advances UE5 has will be a significant improvement. I agree though the leap wont be as big as TLOU1 to TLOU2.

 

[Hunnybun]

A TLOU using the kind of advances UE5 has will be a significant improvement. I agree though the leap wont be as big as TLOU1 to TLOU2.

IMO the difference between TLOU2 and the sort of static environments possible in UE5 is actually bigger than TLOU and TLOU2. It's a huge leap.

But whether the same sort of advance is possible for dynamic assets like foliage is extremely doubtful. Improbable, really.

 

[Sosokrates]

IMO the difference between TLOU2 and the sort of static environments possible in UE5 is actually bigger than TLOU and TLOU2. It's a huge leap.

But whether the same sort of advance is possible for dynamic assets like foliage is extremely doubtful. Improbable, really.

 

[GymWolf]

How can someone look at tlou2 and see CLEAR ways to improve? We are clearly hitting diminishing returns.
There will not be another as big of a jump as it was from tlou1 to tlou2. Tlou3 would have to look like cgi in order to look better.
You can improve many things but it will not change the overal look of tlou2 engine

Last gen or not is just a terminology.
There is some limit how good things can look. They will polish it a bit but what else? It won’t look more real than real. There are diminishing returns

Real life is the limit, what you see now is a power limit.

When you watch movies in a theater, many scene that you think are real, are really cg, entire scenes...

There are even documentaries on how cg is soo good nowadays that show these particular scenes because 99% of people can't notice them to save their life.

Tlou2 even on his best cutscene with the perfect light, shadow and camera cut still look like a damn videogame unless you semi-close your eyes or your sight is absolute shit.


And if you think we are close with human models (we are not, especially during gameplay) we are still 50 years away from realistic looking physics etc, go watch some real life physics simulation and what is needed to run (and they are still simulation, not the real thing)

Like i said, diminishing returns my ass.

 

[rofif]

It's honestly not close.

It's one of the better attempts from last gen and some scenes are better than others (the horse ride through the forest is probably the high point), but everything I've seen on Unreal 5 so far blows it away, frankly. Just a gulf in fidelity.

This is clearly a video game:

This is real life Freeway Park in Seattle:

We have a long way to go boys and girls.

Real life is the limit, what you see now is a power limit.

When you watch movies in a theater, many scene that you think are real, are really cg, entire scenes...

There are even documentaries on how cg is soo good nowadays that show these particular scenes because 99% of people can't notice them to save their life.

Tlou2 even on his best cutscene with the perfect light, shadow and camera cut still look like a damn videogame unless you semi-close your eyes or your sight is absolute shit.


And if you think we are close with human models (we are not, especially during gameplay) we are still 50 years away from realistic looking physics etc, go watch some real life physics simulation and what is needed to run (and they are still simulation, not the real thing)

Like i said, diminishing returns my ass.

I am not saying we are there. I never said that !
But to say we are not somewhat close or getting there is such a way to undersell the achievements.
I am 100% betting that none of your mothers would be able to tell this are from a video game. Especially ps4 video game...
I don't have very good screenshots at hand... only some old ps4 stuff. But have you seen Death Stranding characters?
Not even mentioning the matrix.. it looks straight up movie at first glance.
WE ARE CLOSE/GETTING THERES.

 

[GymWolf]

I am not saying we are there. I never said that !
But to say we are not somewhat close or getting there is such a way to undersell the achievements.
I am 100% betting that none of your mothers would be able to tell this are from a video game. Especially ps4 video game...
I don't have very good screenshots at hand... only some old ps4 stuff. But have you seen Death Stranding characters?
Not even mentioning the matrix.. it looks straight up movie at first glance.
WE ARE CLOSE/GETTING THERES.

Of course we are getting close with each gen, but we are still not there, especially during pure gameplay.

Human (and cars) models and faces are probably the most advance piece of graphic tech we have nowadays in games and those screen are super cherry picked, and yet we are still way far when you see them in motion.

 

[Hunnybun]

It's a fair point that a typical mother wouldn't be able to tell the difference lol.

I made my mum try RE7 in VR (nothing too scary lol) and she saw the bit where Mia is in the cell and then gets up etc. Well my mother thought it was a real person, she said it looked exactly like a real girl.

To us the imperfections are obvious.

So from that point of view, yes we're definitely getting diminishing returns.

But as a gamer I'm not really experiencing that. That Ratchet & Clank SOP they did showing Nefarious City absolutely blew me away. It was as impressive a new gen demo as I'd seen for a long time - perhaps since PGR3 on the 360.

So to some extent it's a question of how much knowledge of the subject you have. What I'm sure of is that for at least 2 more generations there'll be advances that look incredible to people who are actually familiar with games.

 

[AeonGaidenRaiden]

TLOU 2 looks amazing but its not that close to photo realism. Flight Simulator 22 is photo realistic. Gran Turismo 7 in replay mode is photo realistic. Photo realistic means its almost a 1-1 to real life that for a second your brain can think its real when its actually a game. TLOU 2 as someone already said looks like a game, nothing about it is photo realistic. Same for Death Stranding. Great, clean graphics but I havent watched a trailer of either and went...wait....holy shit that was gameplay and not real life??!!

 

[ResetEraVetVIP]

Tlou2 was made at the end of last gen. It's not realistic to expect exponential jumps two years later. Wait for five years more and then compare tlou2 with games from that time. You guys just have unrealistic expectations on so many levels.

First off…I know how tech works..this is my thread lol (also check out the Reeeeeeset Era Thread with devs from the industry)…also I know what to expect…and these consoles are capable of much more…year one had Ratchet and Clank and the Matrix Awakens and year two Horizon Forbidden West… I agree with you kind of but it shouldn’t take 5 years for a big leap…

 

[ResetEraVetVIP]

TLOU 2 looks amazing but its not that close to photo realism. Flight Simulator 22 is photo realistic. Gran Turismo 7 in replay mode is photo realistic. Photo realistic means its almost a 1-1 to real life that for a second your brain can think its real when its actually a game. TLOU 2 as someone already said looks like a game, nothing about it is photo realistic. Same for Death Stranding. Great, clean graphics but I havent watched a trailer of either and went...wait....holy shit that was gameplay and not real life??!!

Who claimed TLOU II was photo realistic?

 

[Feel Like I'm On 42]

Tlou2 was made at the end of last gen. It's not realistic to expect exponential jumps two years later. Wait for five years more and then compare tlou2 with games from that time. You guys just have unrealistic expectations on so many levels.

Tlou2 was made for ps4/pro hardware. We're on ps5 now yet we've only seen a generational leap in like ...3 or 4 games with only 2 games actually blowing me away: Ratchet and Matrix Demo.

Just having ray traced GI alone would boost lou2 visuals through the roof. They were ableto get rt GI work8ng in Metro Exodus and it makes that game look incredible! The Last of Us 1 Remake is very disappointing in that it looks the same as lou2 but is on entirely new hardware. Imagine if Naughty Dog wasn't so lazy lately and got RT GI working in this Last of Us Remake...No other games lighting can touch Exodus. The lighting is truly dynamic, alive, reacting and bouncing off objects. If they got it working in Exodus then they should be able to get it working in other games. Naughty Dog has been resting on their laurels post ps5 and so have many other devs.

 

[ResetEraVetVIP]

Last gen or not is just a terminology.
There is some limit how good things can look. They will polish it a bit but what else? It won’t look more real than real. There are diminishing returns

 

[Dust-by-Monday]

A bad texture? Look at the first picture in full screen. Distance objects look like LEGO blocks. Foliage and trees look like in MSFS when you get too close to the ground. It's impressive that it runs on a hardware from 2013 and that's it.

Not only that, but some textures refuse to load or take literally minutes to load (yes even on PS5).

 

[hello505]

The last of us 2 or remake do not look like current gen games.

 

[ResetEraVetVIP]

The last of us 2 or remake do not look like current gen games.

True, they look better than alot of them.

 

[sendit]

And people think that we reached diminishing returns when even a relatively cheap show on netflix blast out of the moon any real time graphic we have now, lmao.

Agreed. Anyone thinking we have reached diminishing returns clearly needs to get their eyes checked. Without photo-realism being the goal. Real time graphics still have a long ways to go.

 

[sendit]

The last of us 2 or remake do not look like current gen games.

Whats your graphical bar for a current gen game that is currently out?

 

[ResetEraVetVIP]

 

[TheGecko]

All the last of us 2 creamers are weird as fuck man. The so called game is garbage, the graphics are average at best.

 

[Shmunter]

All the last of us 2 creamers are weird as fuck man. The so called game is garbage, the graphics are average at best.

Stevie Wonder ladies and gentlemen….

 

[sinnergy]

Agreed. Anyone thinking we have reached diminishing returns clearly needs to get their eyes checked. Without photo-realism being the goal. Real time graphics still have a long ways to go.

I’ll just let people here talk when they say RT is a feature that we can miss that’s why all the people in CGI and architectures and movie making are using it more than 12 years .. that and high polygon models .. that’s why UE5 is a game changer . It’s not for nothing that a Sony Movie Studio used it for their prerendered short.

 

[TheGecko]

Stevie Wonder ladies and gentlemen….

Listen here you simple minded fraud, I play games to have fun, graphics creamers are the reason 99.9% of games are total shit.

 

[sinnergy]

Listen here you simple minded fraud, I play games to have fun, graphics creamers are the reason 99.9% of games are total shit.

Games are for fun , but are also about coming close to reality .. from the time electronic tv games are conceived in the 1950s - 60s, good thing that there are enough games for everyone! With enough art styles and all types of gameplay to enjoy .

 

[Shmunter]

Listen here you simple minded fraud, I play games to have fun, graphics creamers are the reason 99.9% of games are total shit.

I'm not sure it's possible for you to have fun. Certainly not for those around you

 

[ZywyPL]

Listen here you simple minded fraud, I play games to have fun, graphics creamers are the reason 99.9% of games are total shit.

So you've entered a thread that's taking discussion specifically about graphics...

 

[GymWolf]

 

[TheGecko]

So you've entered a thread that's taking discussion specifically about graphics...

I don't live in an echo chamber, you stay in your lane though.

 

[ResetEraVetVIP]

All the last of us 2 creamers are weird as fuck man. The so called game is garbage, the graphics are average at best.

So why are you here in my thread with toxic opinions…please don’t derail this thread. Thanks…also TLOU II has the most awards in history.

 

[SlimySnake]

Listen here you simple minded fraud, I play games to have fun, graphics creamers are the reason 99.9% of games are total shit.

Read the thread title.

 

[ResetEraVetVIP]

So you've entered a thread that's taking discussion specifically about graphics...

Exactly…

 

[Putonahappyface]

Listen here you simple minded fraud, I play games to have fun, graphics creamers are the reason 99.9% of games are total shit.

 

[ChiefDada]

Photo realistic means its almost a 1-1 to real life that for a second your brain can think its real when its actually a game. TLOU 2 as someone already said looks like a game, nothing about it is photo realistic.

TLOU2 does achieve photorealism in certain instances. I just played the intro Seattle horse ride through the forest and the cars/highway overpass. If you remove the characters from the scene, I would've thought it was from a movie. Shame on me for misremembering how this game looks.

 

[elbourreau]

I posted this on the UE5 thread, but you can't imagine how easy it is right now. I just modelled a head sculpt, UE5 did everything else. What can take days or week to do is now 5min.



I'm thrilled to see what AAA UE5 games will look. Could be insane!

 

[Arioco]

I posted this on the UE5 thread, but you can't imagine how easy it is right now. I just modelled a head sculpt, UE5 did everything else. What can take days or week to do is now 5min.



I'm thrilled to see what AAA UE5 games will look. Could be insane!

5 minutes? That's really impressive. UE5 seems to focus on making developers happy and save a ton of time and effort. I like that.

 

[elbourreau]

5 minutes? That's really impressive. UE5 seems to focus on making developers happy and save a ton of time and effort. I like that.

When I say 5min, it's 5min in UE5, I don't count the time I spent on sculpting the head. But YES, when you have your head model, the whole process takes 5min.

 

[Rivet]

And people think that we reached diminishing returns when even a relatively cheap show on netflix blast out of the moon any real time graphic we have now, lmao.

You don't understand what diminishing returns mean. It means with the same relative gains in processing power, over time you get less and less impressive gains on graphics. You can't "reach" diminishing returns, we reached them day one with the first consoles...

There's no debate about diminishing returns if you understand what it means, they've been there since day one of video games. They'll always be there.

If people still have a doubt, look at the huge graphical difference between Atari VCS 2600 games and NES / Sega Master System games, then look at the comparatively very small difference between last gen and current gen games... That's what diminishing returns are and they can't be more obvious if you're old enough and you know about the first consoles.

Ultimately, graphics will be so close to photorealism you won't be able to tell if it's gen Y or gen Y+1. Actually that's sometimes already the case between PS4 and PS5 versions, but it would never have happened between a VCS 2600 game and a NES game, the difference was that huge. Hence... diminishing returns.

It doesn't mean you won't get better graphics obviously.

 

[Shmunter]

You don't understand what diminishing returns mean. It means with the same relative gains in processing power, over time you get less and less impressive gains on graphics. You can't "reach" diminishing returns, we reached them day one with the first consoles...

There's no debate about diminishing returns if you understand what it means, they've been here since day one of video games. They'll always be there.

If people still have a doubt, look at the huge graphical difference between Atari VCS 2600 games and NES / Sega Master System games, then look at the comparatively very small difference between last gen and current gen games... That's what diminishing returns are and they can't be more obvious if you're old enough and you know about the first consoles.

Ultimately, graphics will be so close to photorealism you won't be able to tell if it's gen Y or gen Y+1. Actually that's sometimes already the case between PS4 and PS5 versions, but it would never have happened between a VCS 2600 game and a NES game, the difference was that hudge. Hence... diminishing returns.

It doesn't mean you won't get better graphics obviously.

Indeed, also can be within a games gfx settings. Shadows that take 20% more rendering time but look barely different than a more efficient lower setting is diminishing returns as an example.

 

[Esppiral]

I am not saying we are there. I never said that !
But to say we are not somewhat close or getting there is such a way to undersell the achievements.
I am 100% betting that none of your mothers would be able to tell this are from a video game. Especially ps4 video game...
I don't have very good screenshots at hand... only some old ps4 stuff. But have you seen Death Stranding characters?
Not even mentioning the matrix.. it looks straight up movie at first glance.
WE ARE CLOSE/GETTING THERES.

The first my father saw me playing Shenmue he thought I was watching a movie, parents are easy to fool.

 

[SlimySnake]

When I say 5min, it's 5min in UE5, I don't count the time I spent on sculpting the head. But YES, when you have your head model, the whole process takes 5min.

really puts into perspective how some last gen games take 5 years to make. yes, games have gotten bigger, but these last gen engines clearly arent helping.

 

[ChiefDada]

I mean, with exception of lighting, this isn't far off from how TLOU2 looks. I would expect a hypothetical native PS5 version to easily surpass this.

The first my father saw me playing Shenmue he thought I was watching a movie, parents are easy to fool.

Photorealism isn't an all or nothing type of deal, it's pretty relative. They just detected aspects of the game that did a decent job off mimicking reality, as perceived by people who don't play video games or keep up with the latest Marvel movies.

 

[ResetEraVetVIP]

The first my father saw me playing Shenmue he thought I was watching a movie, parents are easy to fool.

Lmao.

 

[64bitmodels]

but are also about coming close to reality

...No? Isn't the whole point of video games (and all entertainment in general) an escape FROM reality? If you really wanted to come close to reality, you'd just... Turn the monitor off and get up.
Also, i think we're still a ways away from photorealism. The sad truth is that even the prettiest games on consoles can have really bad looking textures, or low poly assets you can see that completely removes you from the immersion and reminds you that YES, this is a video game and not a live action movie.
Until we get to a point where the textures have 0 blur and the polygons cannot be seen, we won't be photorealistic. Because realism does not have polygons, and realism does not have blurry floors and walls (unless you've got bad eyesight, in which case that's sort of a you problem) neither does it have any sharp points on your fingers. If life looked like TLOU2 and was rendered real time on a PS4, there would be something very, very off about how everything looks, even if it does look very realistic