Speaking of hypocrites, do you agree with a third bailout?
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Greece Agreement Reached
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Speaking of hypocrites, do you agree with a third bailout?
Coriolanus
Banned
M°°nblade;171768478 said:
I don't, actually. Who would pay?
Theonik
Member
No it's not. The state buys shares equivalent to the money that is necessary for the bailout in essence re-capitalising the bank. Conversely the elected path here was to lend the necessary money to Greece which are pretty much how much a re-capitalisation would have cost to pay their debts.M°°nblade;171768478 said:
The distinction here isn't strictly cost. Firstly, if you do this, the impact and possible cost of a bailout would be shared depending on who had the most incompetent bankers. Then each state would have to basically admit to this fact which has wider political implications, and would make the Greek Crisis into a European crisis, as it should have been. Of course bailing out the banks in this way also means that the state has tons of stock in these banks to float in the stock market and punishes bankers for being incompetent that is the whole point of this exercise. The state makes its money back.
The other implication is of course selling a bailout for Greece on the grounds of solidarity was considered far less politically toxic at the time than bailing out the banks. (This is 2009/10 the whole evil banker sentiment was at an all time high)
But they've made a MASSIVE blunder. Sure their banks were bailed out, but Greece's debt problem is now still everyone's problem but rather than small scale bank rescues they have a multi-billion Greek bailout to sort, Greece must pay their debts and them paying is now a political issue. The austerity plan fails, but because it's not a private issue anymore it's harder to solve. Furthermore, in Merkel's infinite wisdom they now have the IMF involved which drags in countries outside the Eurozone applying pressure.
The plan as expected fails. And they have to fix it somehow, but they made it even worse now, they throw more money hoping to push it forward or it will go away it doesn't go away. Now they have a massive problem which is nigh unsolvable, their voters are confused, they blame Greece for it, and are stuck into throwing money in a bottomless pit lest someone grows a spine and tries to actually solve it. Letting Greece default and dealing with bank bailouts and then saving Greece would have been much cheaper and probably beneficial for all parties involved with hindsight.
Edit:
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." - Thomas Jefferson.
I am not actually serious on this part but I would not bat an eyelid if he was lynched.
No dude. Germany brought up the ideas of the 50 bn and the temporary Grexit. Former is flat out humiliating and the latter a weapon to threaten Greece.
Most countries were against another bailout and that's fine, that's democracy and there's nothing to critisize here. A Grexit would make economic sense.
Germany's attitude is what shocked me yesterday and I'm kinda heartbroken as dumb as that sounds. I always loved Germany, always defended Germany and always felt like a German (in addition to being a Greek). But after what they've done yesterday I'm not so sure about those things anymore.
petran79
Banned
Also our Eurovision winner of 2005, Elena Paparizou, was born and raised in Sweden! You have our eternal gratitude Swedish denizens! You should have kicked that bastard Georgios Papandreou out of the country though....
Me and a lot of Greeks lost all respect for him when during the voting for the new measures he chose to go for baths at sea instead
I mean UK and Iceland fought over....cod!
Of course Iceland triumphed! That was one of the most humiliating defeats of Great Britain, shunned for generations to come!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cod_Wars
what the hell
Theonik
Member
Which one?
DeFiBkIlLeR
Banned
Good job we never took it seriously...like the Falklands.
Which one?
hahahaha So he has more than one gem?
One about how the deal is harsh because of the "Greek Spring."
if greece wants to stay in the EU: definately. And I don't care if the money gets paid back in 5 or 30 years. Even 1 a month would be enough.
I would also vote for a 4th or 5th bailout if needed because noone should be forced to leave "their home".
Nikodemos
Member
With leaders like these, who needs enemies?
Theonik
Member
This is a very contradictory stance to take as the bailouts are doing just that. Albeit it's because you cannot force someone out of their home you try to make it so he leaves of his own volition.
Well, yeah, because he caved. When you change your position, you can expect people who held your old position to be upset with you.
Greece should have held firm and gone for the default and the Grexit. Would that have been painful? Probably! But staying in the EU under these conditions is almost certainly worse.
I would personally prefer to save expenses as much as possible and rebuild a solid country on this new base instead of letting everything fall apart without any glimmers of hope.
Imho Greece was never "one of us" in central europe but always "that one country somewhere far away". Maybe the only thing on the plus side is that once Greece manages to turn this whole mess around that it will be recognized as "one of us" then. A basic boring country like France, Germany, Spain, Finland and so on.
I mean, it's much more likely to be a basic boring country like Zaire or Cameroon. Greece is going to be bled completely dry with this deal and then sit through three more years of unemployment going up to levels we literally haven't seen since the last world war. It's going to be a colonial possession of the EU, not a charter member.
Theonik
Member
It's a shame economies don't work like that. Explain to me for a start. What do you think a recession is? What do you think hope in this case is hope for what? Rebuild what?
Varoufakis calls the deal 'a new Versailles Treaty'
http://www.abc.net.au/radionational...ew-versailles-treaty-yanis-varoufakis/6616532
http://www.abc.net.au/radionational...ew-versailles-treaty-yanis-varoufakis/6616532
Looks like we're heading for a coalition breakup:
To Potami to the rescue?
http://www.breakingnews.com/item/2015/07/13/greek-governments-junior-coalition-partner-says-i/
To Potami to the rescue?
So, it is a political revenge, no?
At least he is being honest.
That wasn't the bad part of the Versailles treaty
He has referenced Versailles when he got kicked out, too. He compared himself to Keynes.
Coriolanus
Banned
You lost all respect for him because he took steps to abstain from voting on a package that went against what he believed? What?
Can't you abstain while actually doing the job you get paid to do?
Theonik
Member
Better yet he should have just said no.
But the reason to abstain in this manner is that officially abstaining or voting no would have huge political ramifications and would harm the party.
PdotMichael
Banned
Randolph Freelander
Member
So basically Greece is going to be economically crippled and without autonomy for at least several more years. I'm sure this is refreshing for the Greek populace.
Coriolanus
Banned
Not when you're friends with the PM and don't wanna completely shit on the new FinMin, no.
Which is why you then find a convenient excuse to get the fuck outta dodge and let those deluded fools have their dreams crushed.
They are.
https://twitter.com/RT_com/status/620640535619969025
edit: Didn't know this is a banned site. Maybe a tweet is ok since they have the only live coverage I could find.
Greeks really want to stay in the Euro and really want the banks to open so they can leave those fearful weeks behind.
Maybe go all the way and step down from the Parliament as well then?
Coriolanus
Banned
Wouldn't be surprised. Either way he'd have to do so after the vote and you'd still have people bitching that he's only doing that to show off, so w/e.
What exactly are you complaining about now?
Theonik
Member
Again, it jeopardises the government. Unless this is the intended effect then it's not something that is usually done. Of course in this case I think it should be done.
Interesting, Varoufakis confirms that Tiparas wasn't happy with the No vote. Sort of proves he called the referendum to absolve himself of any responsibility of having to agree to the creditors demands.
Ps Varoufakis will go down in the history books as someone who's caused untold damage to the Greek economy
I'd personally just want my elected idealistic firebrand politicians to no flip flop on their ideology when its inconvenient. Up to the Greek people, I guess.
Coriolanus
Banned
No, he won't. Tsipras will, tho.
...why do you think he resigned from the FinMin position? He said he wouldn't sign off on a shit deal. Guess what. He didn't.
jakonovski
Member
Because it's the guy who comes in after half a decade of ruination that's guilty of it all.
So they went through with the assest seizure and all? Yeesh...
Condolences to the Greek people. If they're upset enough at the betrayal of their government and EU to resort to body counts instead of word and deals... cant say Id blame em. After this its probably the only way to make a real change to their living state.
Condolences to the Greek people. If they're upset enough at the betrayal of their government and EU to resort to body counts instead of word and deals... cant say Id blame em. After this its probably the only way to make a real change to their living state.
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