Ether_Snake
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Varoufakis acted correctly all along, it isn't he who will get tge blame, wishful thinkers. It will be the Troika and Tsipras.
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Greece Agreement Reached
- Thread starter Syriel
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So go all the way and either vote against it in the parliament or resign all the way, no need to half-ass it.
What a ridiculous agreement we saw today. If I was greek I would be pissed off after voting No to the previous agreement and having now this one that is way worse than the other. We are facing crucial times in Europe and many people have no idea of how big of a deal this is. I worry that the nazis over there will start gaining momentum...
petran79
Banned
He could just be in parlament voting either "no" or "present"
He chose to be absent, like the other 6 SYRIZA members.
The issue is he did not said he was absent due to disagreeing with the new measures
He just cited family reasons
The other 4 members who werent present cited the did this because they disagreed with voting such measures
He supported the referendum, that alone is enough to hold him partially responsible.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...ng-treated-like-a-hostile-occupied-state.html
Besides the opinionated conclusions, the article goes into the depth of most important proposed measures and their most probable outcome.
Besides the opinionated conclusions, the article goes into the depth of most important proposed measures and their most probable outcome.
Palette Swap
Member
I'm still reeling but I feel uneasy about the whole deal TBH.
This will be used as an example of sovereignty loss by eurosceptics everywhere and they won't be wrong.
This will be used as an example of sovereignty loss by eurosceptics everywhere and they won't be wrong.
Prime crotch
Banned
It's an experience to come back from a long weekend with no connection to the outside world and find out everything has gone to shit in more ways than one.
Good job, Europe! At least back when we warring against one another we were honest about our intentions
86 whole billions to invest on greek economy and economical reforms that will fuel the economy back on it's feet I'm sure!
Good job, Europe! At least back when we warring against one another we were honest about our intentions
86 whole billions to invest on greek economy and economical reforms that will fuel the economy back on it's feet I'm sure!
Still better than Versailles. Not good at all, but Versailles is a bit off.
Coriolanus
Banned
Both of you are essentially complaining about Yanis not being endowed with the political acumen of a flower pot.
Problem wasnt holding the referendum so much as failing to capitalize on its result. And the refusal to do that rests on the shoulders of another man.
Absolutely not. The movie about this situation will paint him as the tragic figure trying to do the right thing amidst a sea of idiots.
Varoufakis has made plenty of mistakes throughout, he deserves his share of the blame. Last couple of weeks were disgraceful, outright lies. Yanis loves to write and talk, that's what he does best, and he'll get his story out there for all to see, even though he was involved in 5 months of bickering that ultimately culminated with the longest bank holiday in modern history.
You could tell when Yani or Costa Lapavitsas were leaking shit to the media, they use the same conduits to get info out there.
Edit: Honestly, it's hard to see through the smoke. What a wild time, who knows what's what.
You could tell when Yani or Costa Lapavitsas were leaking shit to the media, they use the same conduits to get info out there.
Edit: Honestly, it's hard to see through the smoke. What a wild time, who knows what's what.
petran79
Banned
yeah, he's like a rose surrounded by venus flytraps....
Gurgelhals
Member
Indeed.
This is exactly how I've imagined all these talks to have gone down. An economist with an academic background questioning the rule book and trying to have a debate on principles vs. a group of lawyers, technocrats and accountants firmly insisting on sticking to the rules and contractual obligations. Situations like these are hopeless, they might as well have talked to each other in two different languages.
The sad thing is that Varoufakis' analysis of the entire mess probably was and still is correct, but he was absolutely in over his head as a politician and a diplomat.
My words exactly!
Member
Don't confuse German people with German politicians, they' re better than this, i mean it's not like they know our situation from the inside. If i had to rely only on media as well, i could have their distorted perspective as well. Shauble's machiavellianism and his lackies' offences do not reflect the whole mindshare.
You could say the same about us and the governments of the last 40 years.
Anyway, what is true, is that this is the first time that Germany's external affairs policy on the euro has been openly called out by numerous sides all over the world. This goes against the "lazy greeks" narrative that was prevalent till now.
rimshot
Not really, it's just what our pro YES media would have you believe.
http://www.zougla.gr/apopseis/article/gia-des-re-pi-tin-peftoun-ston-varoufaki
Wrong
BTW anyone curious about the ESM should see this short video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6jeIwFld3Q
This really is war, except with banks instead of tanks
Coriolanus
Banned
The main thing that i took from that whole interview is that those meetings should be openly televised asap. Fuck waiting for a joint statement and leaks. It's transparency or bust.
Ok the most amount of damage for such a short period of time!
That's a terrible misreading of the situation.
In terms of the loss of sovereignty, or fiscal sovereignty, and the control Europe has now over Greece's budgets, is this much the same as Ireland had? I remember for some time everything budgets had to be approved by Europe.
It's no less debatable an issue, but is this a ground breaking thing? Or are the powers over budgets stronger in Greece's case than they were in Ireland's?
It's no less debatable an issue, but is this a ground breaking thing? Or are the powers over budgets stronger in Greece's case than they were in Ireland's?
He certainly tried to play the role of politician the last week or so, especially after the ref was announced. Was telling outright lies, he knew better than anyone that banks weren't opening any time soon, or that a deal wasn't even remotely ready, etc. But you know what, it was the circumstance of it all. You're not going to run out and tell people, "well, no matter how you vote the banks won't open and a deal isn't anywhere near ready!" Wish he would of just kept quiet.
Check the article that I linked before, it's talking about the loss of sovereignty.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...ng-treated-like-a-hostile-occupied-state.html
Too late, even BBC quoted him.
He already is that in my mind. Media trying to ridicule him only strengthen that view.
Coriolanus
Banned
Damn near more reporters than protesters in that thing.
Which is kind of a shame, tbf
Those 130% were after the IMF intervention, not before like Greece.
Theonik
Member
When this happens the EU states will just roll in their armies in defence of democracy.
petran79
Banned
that reporter there is not the best way to defend him. anyway, I accept he does not want to be a politician....
Hari Seldon
Member
I'd like to see the shitshow of the EU conducting any military operation without the US or UK.
witchedwiz
Member
Correct me if i'm wrong..
Greece goes kaboom...
Europe tries to impose austerity measures..
Greece says no thank you, but let us make the citizens decide..
Citizens decide no..
Euro zone forces the hand an pass an EVEN WORSE deal
Greece accept
Uhm... Say what? If i was a greece i'd be pissed since as a greek i've just demostrated how my sovereignity has gone out in the cesspool, but on the top of that i even get the short end of the stick?
That's some cool shit..
Greece goes kaboom...
Europe tries to impose austerity measures..
Greece says no thank you, but let us make the citizens decide..
Citizens decide no..
Euro zone forces the hand an pass an EVEN WORSE deal
Greece accept
Uhm... Say what? If i was a greece i'd be pissed since as a greek i've just demostrated how my sovereignity has gone out in the cesspool, but on the top of that i even get the short end of the stick?
That's some cool shit..
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Greece's wasn't 130% before the crisis. At the end of 2007 (last year before the crisis hit) it was at 107.4% [Eurostat]. That includes retrospective adjustments, too, so that's not a fudged figure. Portugal will almost certainly do a Greece when we hit the next recession.
The Economist has also an opinion article on the negotiation outcome:
http://www.economist.com/news/europ...start-greece-greece-signs-painful-humiliating
If that makes you feel somehow better, fine with me.
http://www.economist.com/news/europ...start-greece-greece-signs-painful-humiliating
If that makes you feel somehow better, fine with me.
Theonik
Member
The average Greek is still doomed because he still can't understand why the Euro is a TERRIBLE idea. I hope the recent experience will perhaps teach them.
Sadly it also means that Golden Dawn being the only party actually promising to end this madness will be the go-to option.
That's what I (and many more portuguese people here) are worried about. What is happening in Greece might and will probably happen here as well if we follow the politics we are following right now. Austerity didn't help us in anything at all. I agre that we should cut costs in some areas but this is to much. This just shrinks our economy and fattens others. Today we witnessed a serious message from Germany to every other country in the EU that we should follow the rules or we will be crushed...
Zaraki_Kenpachi
Member
So I couldn't find details before but why even do this? Every site seems to be saying the new measures will be super harsh and guaranteed another recession for Greece. What exactly is the upside?
My words exactly!
Member
Indeed, they would be butchered.
Well, hopefully there are 2 solutions till next elections (whenever those happen)
1) A new truly (meaning it does what it says on the tin) anti-austerity and grexit party takes shape, including people from all political sides like Varoufakis, Kammenos, Lapavitsas, etc. If they can amass a good amount of voters they can have a say in what goes down next.
2) Now is the best chance for Tsipras to really go all out on the big fishes that tax evade and have tens of billions stashed in Swiss banks, the need for state influx is critical, no one will object him on the contrary, he will gain public support. People like Zoe Konstantopoulou can help with that (btw Benizelos and other EU lapdogs are asking for her resign, after they got Varoufakis out of the picture. We' ll see how it goes)
petran79
Banned
Things were shit for Greece prior to SYRIZA election
Difference is that the previous governments and their backed media did their secret dealings and hid from Greeks the seriousness of the situation, while accepting everything from the Troika. This government presented to us how things really are and what happens if you try to resist. It took a lot of shock from the hits and may not survive. Greece alone would never be able to change the way the EU works anyway. They said it openly, Greece had no other choice but to accept. But it is a small step forward. Now wages in Greece and quality of life will fall down even more.
Coriolanus
Banned
fix'd
For the other countries
1. looting what they can
2. surviving their own electorate.
For greece:
1. stay in the Euro
2. bank runs
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Greece isn't sufficiently prepared to launch their own currency. They're at least 3 months away. That means Greece would have essentially no liquidity [or electronic only] for 3 months, which is a desperately difficult situation to be in. The other reason is just uncertainty. Nobody really knows what a Grexit would entail for sure. The oldest and strongest emotion of mankind is fear, and the oldest and strongest fear is the fear of the unknown.
I think that's the idea.
And it was also a warning sign to several to shore up economies and spending/debt now before the next recession rather than think a country can live on the brink and then get bailed out when things go south. Not a bad lesson in theory, but a costly one for those involved.
Zaraki_Kenpachi
Member
Are either of those actually positives for Greece?
Yeah, I guess I can get that. It's just that every place seems to be painting this austerity in such a negative light that it's getting hard to see the upside.
Theonik
Member
The problem is that there is a huge logistical challenge to preparing a new currency which can be overcome, but is not easy to overcome in secret which any such backup plan would require. Any attempt to switch to a new currency would go public and cause huge disruptions in this climate. The EU will take advantage of this to sabotage the move.
Then again the Greek government was able to construct 155km of fortifications in the 1930s in absolute secrecy.
Machspeed007
Member
No Twitter in 1930..
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