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Greece Agreement Reached
- Thread starter Syriel
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If by any chance the greek would've voted yes then the government would have some cover when austerity further wreck the economy.
In this world?
Democratic countries make decisions that impact other countries all the fucking time.
In a system where you obviously can get in, but never get out.
And it's nice nothing has happened to Gold-Sachs for helping in hiding the debt.
Yippie.
Or the utter failure of the Euro watchdogs.
Nope, all the fault of the common Greek man.
If that was really Tsipras' intention, then he would not have rallied so hard for 'No'.
Theonik
Member
Living beyond their means and all that.
Coriolanus
Banned
Not even remotely true. They should, however, be willing to face the consequences of not following through on agreements.
I think he rallied hard for the no vote to get leverage in negotiations. He may have overestimated that amount of leverage it gave though.
jakonovski
Member
The True Finns have started trolling in earnest: Finland will not accept bridge funding for Greece.
Nikodemos
Member
The final figure of which looks like 0, given the latest news.
This makes a lot more sense. If they are willing to break agreements, then they must face the consequences, if any.
I am honestly surprised they took the deal (so far) vs. stepping out. It'll be an interesting couple of days in the Greek legislature. And it turns out the referendum and all that jazz was nothing but a stall tactic with no bargaining power gained.
I'm currently looking for articles that explain why Greece's politicians seemingly always wait until it's too late to act. Handing in their proposals at the very last minute, leaving it open if they're going to pay at the end of the month, looking for a quick solution when banks are already running out of money and not beforehand and so on. I'm not sure if you know what I mean but there must be an explanation for that.
Theonik
Member
The funny part about this is that Greece has put more money into the ESM that Finland.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Checking post #337 of this thread is a nice place to start.
In one where you have a fucking union with those other countries?
Jesus.
No wonder the Euro is a disaster...
#FEXIT / FIXIT (those words exist since 3 years or so)
afaik the quota each country has to put in is only bound to the population and Greece has twice as many citizens as Finland.
PdotMichael
Banned
Show me a referendum that forced 18 other states to do something without that the population in those countries weren given the same rights. And how they could sell it as democratic.
So keeping your word is trolling now?
Theonik
Member
France, EU constitution.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_European_Constitution_referendum,_2005#Consequences
Actually there is some interesting comparisons to make here
jakonovski
Member
It is when you enter negotiations when in fact you have no intention of negotiating. Finland should just say we're being held hostage by Timo Soini, plz understand.
Although the real punchline will come when he turns his coat.
Theonik
Member
The fact that they voted no on the referendum obviously means it is not at all costs. It is their governments that are complete tools.
Nikodemos
Member
What colour do you expect its underside to be?
PdotMichael
Banned
Is that a countetargument? The EU constitution is a prime example how an European or several other countries can't force something on another country.
A referendum in Germany is not binding for Greece or Spain or Great Britain or any other country that isn't Germany.
jakonovski
Member
Varoufakis was the only one with any sort of spine, that much is clear now. He should've stayed.
jakonovski
Member
Political and personal expediency yellow (DIN504674)
So much for what the people wanted, aye? That referendum was nothing but political theater and what the people voted for has been completely ignored. At least they could have failed now and restarted with dignity and sovereignty, but now they are just being sold out further and will have an even bigger collapse down the road.
Theonik
Member
The EU amended the agreement in accordance to the wishes of the French people.
What do you mean "force them to do something"?
The greek voted on what Greece will do, specifically about whether or not they accept the bailout terms.
Yes, decisions made by countries often impact other countries, but that's not really unusual.
Nikodemos
Member
That's probably precisely why they wanted him out.
They made a few changes to the contents, but the biggest one was to convert the document from a constitutional treaty into a simple one (what ended up as the Lisbon Treaty), thereby sidestepping the need for a new referendum on its adoption. And the consitutional treaty is a special case, since its enactment required unanimous approval via referendum in all member states (they sort of stopped trying to do this with other treaties after its resounding failure).
PdotMichael
Banned
The post string is pretty clear. The referendum in Greece a national limited poll and it doesn't have any binding power outside of Greece.
Claiming the EU isn't democratic because it didn't follow the referendum is nonsense.
It doesn't need to have binding power outside of Greece, it talks about what Greece does, not other countries.
Or do you think that Greece must accept any bailout offer with whatever terms that is put forward by the ECB?
Because that would indeed be undemocratic.
The referendum was sold as a means of getting a better deal without a grexit; which wasn't possible. Not a grexit.
In afraid you don't understand the Greek banks situation. As soon as possible for them means "yesterday". That's how bad it is. If they linked bank recapitalisation to this fund, the fund needs to be created now. Now meaning as soon as they can put it in place technically.
I explained you twice why it's a fire sale, even if it would to be done in 2-3 years, which it most probably won't.
Your only argument is that there is no clear deadline in the press releases. You don't need a clear deadline when you have a clear conditionality linked to it.
It's setup for a midterm to long term range because it was officially stated that they want / need to avoid dumping prices (which they would get right now).
Right, while we have no timeline for the sales, we know they're linked to bank recap so some of the assets need to be sold in a pretty timely fashion.
PdotMichael
Banned
If Tsipras decides to ignore the referendum although it was his idea and even wanted a no then he acts undemocratic but not the EU. The referendum was never binding for other eurostates.
That is the thing: That the Greeks were actually told again and again and again by Syriza that defaulting would be easy, that they could default on their debt yet stay inside the Euro, thus, having the best of both worlds. Which is, simply put, a lie.
And yes, I also believe that a Grexit would be the best thing for both parts involved in the long term, but it will surely bring a huge amount of pain in the short term, specially for the Greeks theirselves. And they must be ready to endure it, because the other option (kicking the can further down the road, keep doing the whole "austerity in exchange for loans") is only going to make things worse in the long run. However, noone is having the political courage to do it. It is disheartening.
See what I mean? *sigh* Varoufakis is right, you can't do this half-assed.
Because we put more weight on the total sum of the citizenry rather than on that arbitrary, outdated construct that we call "nations"?
jakonovski
Member
The eurogroup is acting undemocratically because as part of the deal they want Greece to surrender their sovereignty to the Troika. That's pure tyranny and punishment for being a failure.
Guys, leave the referendum alone, it's no longer relevant. We're way pass that point.
We have a third possible bailout for Greece that supposed to work better than the first 2 under tougher conditions. 86 billions. Think about it. Everybody who was complaining about Greeks last week is on this train now. Isn't it insane?
Do the same thing, under the same conditions, expect a different result. WTF?
We have a third possible bailout for Greece that supposed to work better than the first 2 under tougher conditions. 86 billions. Think about it. Everybody who was complaining about Greeks last week is on this train now. Isn't it insane?
Do the same thing, under the same conditions, expect a different result. WTF?
Ether_Snake
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The so-called debt cut Tsipras referred to is this: Germany agrees to discuss the debt so that they can impose more austerity and privatization, and if Greece doesn't accept then every other EZ member will bully them. The stakes would be extremely high if they discuss debt cutting measures because it would imply doing the same for other countries.
Tsipras is probably hoping that he'll beavle to create a further rift when these negotiations come, while Germany sees it as another opportunity to eat more of the pie.
Tsipras is probably hoping that he'll beavle to create a further rift when these negotiations come, while Germany sees it as another opportunity to eat more of the pie.
Nikodemos
Member
As I have stated on a similar occasion, it's called the definition of insanity.
Lol nationalising a bank in order to save it is even more expensive. Who will pay? You know the answer.
it is not just Germany... most of EU countries did not want to let Greece go do its greek thing.
Why? Because in many EU states, there are less social benefits, pensions and more taxes than Greece will have under this agreement. Most newer EU members had to privatize their state owned monopolies in order to join EU in the first place.
Varoufakis was an actual economist, bruxelles never listened to him. They just wanted political decisions that would give more money to the usual suspects, megacorps and whatsnot. Sell all national assets, privatize everything, them sell them backs to the citizens at twice the cost.
Good fucking democracy. Our computer overlords can't come soon enough. Humanity is trash.
Good fucking democracy. Our computer overlords can't come soon enough. Humanity is trash.
QuicheFontaine
Member
Fucking hell. Dark, mate.
Some guys in the older thread called Tsipras the greates greek politican in decades.
The same guys now tell him to f**** off.
Also the EZ had to break at least 2 of its fundamental rules to offer Greece a bailout programme and against the very will of some of its members.
This thread is full of hypocrites
The same guys now tell him to f**** off.
Also the EZ had to break at least 2 of its fundamental rules to offer Greece a bailout programme and against the very will of some of its members.
This thread is full of hypocrites
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