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Greece Agreement Reached

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U

uuaschbaer

Banned
Concerning the politicians resigning because they feel they cannot vote in favour of the deal, isn't it their job to vote against it then?
 
A

AndyD

aka andydumi
uuaschbaer said:
Concerning the politicians resigning because they feel they cannot vote in favour of the deal, isn't it their job to vote against it then?
Click to expand...

I don't think they want it to sink, but they also don't want to be on record as having voted for it.
 
A

aeolist

Banned
uuaschbaer said:
Concerning the politicians resigning because they feel they cannot vote in favour of the deal, isn't it their job to vote against it then?
Click to expand...

i believe they're resigning their ministerial positions and not their membership in parliament. they can still vote against the deal.
 
F

Fenderputty

Banned
EloKa said:
historical speaking: you could say that the US are / were both.

if the US is still a monatery union it would include stuff like that every state is a totally different and indepent own country.
Imho Kansas or Nebraska are only parts of the USA and not countries on their own like France or Germany.
And Obama would be the counterpart to our non-existing EU president who has the power to rule over independent countries for some reason.
Click to expand...

How is the USA not both?
 
Nydius

Nydius

Member
Fenderputty said:
How is the USA not both?
Click to expand...

Kansas and Nebraska aren't sovereign countries with their own independent financial establishments. All financial establishments are governed on the Federal Level. Whereas in the Eurozone, the ECB sets policies but each country's banks remain largely independent.

An article on Vox.com some time ago explained this part better than I could, so I'll just c/p the relevant portion of it:

A common currency needs shared economic institutions

At this point, you're probably wondering why this same problem doesn't plague the United States. Mississippi and Massachusetts have very different economies, yet the Federal Reserve has never faced a situation where the Massachusetts economy was booming while Mississippi was in a deep depression.

I asked Joe Gagnon, an economist at the Peterson Institute for International Economics, why the US doesn't suffer from the kind of problems plaguing the Eurozone right now. He argues that the United States has several economic institutions that help keep the economies of the 50 states in sync with each other.

Common banking policies. US banks are regulated at the federal level, and the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation guarantees banks in all 50 states. And Gagnon says American regulators don't allow a bank in one state to hold too much of that state's debt. As a result, American states aren't vulnerable to local bank failures the way European countries are. A string of bank failures in Texas would mostly be a problem for the US government, not the government of Texas. Conversely, if an American state has a fiscal crisis, consumers don't need to worry that this will imperil the soundness of local banks.

Common fiscal policies. In the United States, the federal government is responsible for a large share of overall government spending. That's not true in Europe, where the European Union's budget is much smaller than the combined budgets of EU member nations. This means that states are not as vulnerable to macroeconomic swings as European nations are.

"Retirees in Florida are paid out of the US Social Security system, not the Florida social security system," Gagnon says. "So if Florida gets into trouble, the retirees won't lose their benefits."

America's common tax and spending policies help to even out differences in states' economies. When a state is booming, the federal government collects more tax revenue from residents and businesses there. At the same time, demand for some government benefits declines. When a state's economy does poorly, the opposite occurs: tax revenue falls and federal benefit payments increase. These financial flows help to prevent the kind of extreme economic divergence we see in Europe right now.

A common labor market: When some parts of the US have higher unemployment rates than others, people move to states where opportunities are better. Once again, this prevents extreme differences between state unemployment rates, contributing to an integrated national economy.

In theory, all those unemployed Greek people could move to Germany in search of work. But language and cultural barriers make that difficult in practice, and few Greek people have done so.
Click to expand...
 
F

Fenderputty

Banned
Captiosus said:
Kansas and Nebraska aren't sovereign countries with their own independent financial establishments. All financial establishments are governed on the Federal Level. Whereas in the Eurozone, the ECB sets policies but each country's banks remain largely independent.

An article on Vox.com some time ago explained this part better than I could, so I'll just c/p the relevant portion of it:
Click to expand...

Wouldn't the bolded be our fiscal union? The feds are what tie our monetary union together. They're in charge or transfer credits (like the one greece needs from the EU). California for example get less than a dollar back from the feds for every dollar taxed where Kansas gets more than a dollar per dollar taxed.
 
P

pigeon

Banned
Captiosus said:
Kansas and Nebraska aren't sovereign countries with their own independent financial establishments. All financial establishments are governed on the Federal Level. Whereas in the Eurozone, the ECB sets policies but each country's banks remain largely independent.

An article on Vox.com some time ago explained this part better than I could, so I'll just c/p the relevant portion of it:
Click to expand...

You are describing why America IS both a fiscal union and a monetary union. But the post you're responding to is questioning a claim that America is NOT both.
 
E

ElTorro

I wanted to dominate the living room. Then I took an ESRAM in the knee.
Coriolanus said:
Why would they?
Click to expand...

To add to the hilarity of everything that has happened so far.

I am also just looking for something that might still stop this pre-deal, since all it will achieve, is that we'll have the same situation, only worse, in a few months or, at best, years.
 
F

Fenderputty

Banned
pigeon said:
You are describing why America IS both a fiscal union and a monetary union. But the post you're responding to is questioning a claim that America is NOT both.
Click to expand...

Yeah I was confused there. I read the article and thought ... did he just post something that supports my position?
 
Nydius

Nydius

Member
pigeon said:
You are describing why America IS both a fiscal union and a monetary union. But the post you're responding to is questioning a claim that America is NOT both.
Click to expand...

You're right. I completely misread and thought the claim being made was the other way around.

My mistake.
 
M

My words exactly!

Member
That Shauble quote was... again unfortunate.
Anyways,
arkas-neo1.jpg

''There are 2 things a representative cannot give: his position and a lesson in ethics ''

Today's photos from Greek Parliament:
Varoufakis with leader of Left Platform:
vouli11.jpg

Tsakalotos
tsakalotos3.jpg

tsakalotos4.jpg

The pics speak for themselves
 
O

oti

Banned
maquiladora said:
I am only surprised that it has taken this long until the people's anger manifested into something physical.

New elections when.
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I don't know. Rallies have all been peaceful until the anarchists showed up. Most protestors are sick of violence and fear and just want things to get back to normal.
 
M

My words exactly!

Member
A couple of interesting tables about the greek debt:

Greece
- paid 664 billion € for interests & loans between 1991 and 2011
qRmNswq.png

- paid 88 billion € for interests & loans in 2012
48XLBZS.png

- will have to pay 320 billion € for interests & loans between 2014 and 2030
iyliS5n.png



That's more than a trillion € in 40 years, just for interest payments.
 
J

Joni

Member
That is indeed the problem you have once your debt is too high, you have to spend all your money just paying back interests.
 
M

My words exactly!

Member
I can only find from 2010 till today, about 349 billion € from the euro bailouts [110 in 2010 + 109 in 2011 + 130 in 2012 (+ 86 for the next 3 years?)]
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-17373216

And some info on loans since the greek state formed after the War of Independence:
http://greece.greekreporter.com/2014/01/26/born-in-debt-greeces-history-of-borrowing/
http://qz.com/440058/the-complete-history-of-the-greek-debt-drama-in-charts/


Btw, seems Shauble's privatization plan was fostered a long time ago:
Germany's "Euruka" plan for Greece, from 2011:
http://www.latribune.fr/actualites/...an-secret-allemand-pour-sauver-la-grece-.html
 
Theonik

Theonik

Member
Greek Private media strikes again:
http://info-war.gr/2015/07/χυδαία-επίθεση-ant1-σε-όσους-αμφισβητούν/
The header is "Day of Crisis" this is the text in each picture:
"The merciless conspirator of the drachma"
"Break-in into the mint was planned by orchestrators of Stalinist totalitarianism"
"Coalition of mutiny - Anarchists and Public Sector union workers protesting at Syntagma square"
"The country is in danger of bankruptcy and Zoi… is smoking the good shit"

michael92 said:
The chat is golden, tsip rekt, dongs etc... It's like watching twitch.
Click to expand...
Kappa.
 
Nydius

Nydius

Member
Reinhard Bütikofer
@bueti

Theodorakis first speaker to adress young people, asking them not to leave country. - Just heard from friend: "My daughter leaves now, too."
Click to expand...

Keeping the young adults around is going to be a hard sell. Youth unemployment is over 50% last I checked and these measures aren't really going to help them any. At best, it will preserve the status quo for a prolonged period; at worst, it will cause youth unemployment to get worse.

I don't know if the drachma would have been better but I don't think it would have been much worse. The migration of the younger generation and subsequent "brain drain" from Greece is one of the most distressing aspects of this entire situation IMO. With the future of the country effectively being pushed out to find a living elsewhere, Greece is losing a good portion of a future workforce that will be needed for long term recovery.
 
M

My words exactly!

Member
Theonik said:
Greek Private media strikes again:
http://info-war.gr/2015/07/χυδαία-επίθεση-ant1-σε-όσους-αμφισβητούν/
The header is "Day of Crisis" this is the text in each picture:
"The merciless conspirator of the drachma"
"Break-in into the mint was planned by orchestrators of Stalinist totalitarianism"
"Coalition of mutiny - Anarchists and Public Sector union workers protesting at Syntagma square"
"The country is in danger of bankruptcy and Zoi… is smoking the good shit"
Kappa.
Click to expand...
Well we already talkied about the hyper corrupted greek private media in the referendum thread, but ANT1 is extremely salty about this too:
http://www.koutipandoras.gr/article/146034/i-lista-keelpno-i-alitheia-kai-ta-mygiasmata
TL,DR: Yesterday, Minister of Defence Kammenos publicized a list with illegal transfers and donations from the former greek governments towards media during the H1N1 vacination campaign. ANT1 was on top of the list, with more than 1 million € received.
Ι am still waiting to see if Tsipras dares to go after the big fish. If he does not he is totally finished.


Coriolanus said:
Oh lawd, ND and Pasok aren't even waiting until this crap is passed to start shitting on Tsipras.
Click to expand...

Fun fact: 2 ND representatives came to Brussels the previous weekend, to meet with Yuncher. One of them was a prominent name in the infamous "Lagard list" (that pighead Benizelos of PASOK hid from greek justice).
 
L

LJ11

Member
Captiosus said:
Keeping the young adults around is going to be a hard sell. Youth unemployment is over 50% last I checked and these measures aren't really going to help them any. At best, it will preserve the status quo for a prolonged period; at worst, it will cause youth unemployment to get worse.

I don't know if the drachma would have been better but I don't think it would have been much worse. The migration of the younger generation and subsequent "brain drain" from Greece is one of the most distressing aspects of this entire situation IMO. With the future of the country effectively being pushed out to find a living elsewhere, Greece is losing a good portion of a future workforce that will be needed for long term recovery.
Click to expand...

That's the sad part, talent drain will kill the country, demo will be even more lopsided.
 
E

ElTorro

I wanted to dominate the living room. Then I took an ESRAM in the knee.
Super random OT question watching that stream: If I were to learn ancient Greek, would I be able to understand some contemporary Greek too?
 
M

My words exactly!

Member
LJ11 said:
That's the sad part, talent drain will kill the country, demo will be even more lopsided.
Click to expand...
Yep. Coupled with illegal immigration that makes an explosive mix for greek demographics.
Anyway, about the brain drain, almost every medical student seminar i attended last year had representatives from nothern countries (england, germany, etc) looking to interview and poach interested students or post graduates to work on health departments in their respective countries.

G.Varoufakis: "Carcinogenic part of society the media as it is now"
http://www.defencenet.gr/defence/it...3;ναι-τώρα
["They will blame me for the battle of Navarino, on the Asia Minor disaster. It is incredible. No one is without sin and no surefire. Of course there were mistakes. I'll give you a list of thirty my own mistakes, but I was high priest lobby of the drachma when all my political and academic career based on the assumption that the exit from the euro would be catastrophic and have damaged relations with comrades told me come on, to tell me that I wanted to get out of the euro, it touches me. They are so foolish.

The bankruptcy was made in 2010, did not Varoufakis. The IOUs of thinking just because ... you know, a few days ago they closed banks. Then they said that they will increase the ELA, yet they call some time there would be no paper money and then what do you do to stay in the eurozone when no paper money? The fact that I went bankrupt Greece is the oxymoron ,, when Greece went bankrupt in 2010. The IOUs that are part of the draft Varoufakis to get out of the EU, it is the exact opposite. If you want to diavaleis someone reverses what it says and presents it in exactly the opposite way and continue to say.

I was proposed for another ministry, but my goal is to be a financial minister. Since 2009 when I saw the problem coming, with the financial meltdown, I felt enormous anxiety about Greece and Europe as a whole, as my thought is always European, since I sleep, I wake up, I think, I live daily the parameters, variables primary surpluses, debt, its restructuring, that without restructuring the Greek private sector will never be able to breathe, everything, VAT, taxation, these are my agony. I would not like to have another ministry and to think them.

I do not aim to become party leader. All I want is to protect and safeguard, through my words, what matters now, the preservation of Tsipras. The support of 61.5% of the people voted no to stay in Europe, despite the terror remained loyal to an independent policy, in order to stay in Greece in the euro. I say the same thing for six years. It may be nonsense for some, but it is the same.

That not Sunday 5 July, the serve and day - night. There is no chance that I presented to come into conflict with my critics, with all the thieves who shout to scare the householder, those who brought the country there brought it today, with all who saw memorandum, you know with all those if we did not sign us egkalousan if we sign will accuse us that we brought memorandum, is something that I look forward with great joy and agony to deal in any league in any court, in any forum, would dare to antagonize Me?

They lie to those who say them. There was no deceit in my deeds and actions.
There was leisure trip to Aegina. In my house I went. Simply there was no bridge. If there was a bridge would be otherwise. Because it was the ferry issue. I gave my full support to the three who went to Brussels to give battle on behalf of us all, I tried to point out some issues in the texts that I had ought to watch, not to be tripping, staring eyes told all Members that I support absolutely Euclid Tsakalotos, John Dragasaki, and Alexis Tsipras, especially Euclid, who go through this furnace and asked by everyone to empower and support this effort. At the end I said I would send you a letter confirming what I say, because it is a night that should see my daughter after leaving is 11 years, no problem. I send my letter ... apparently I did something bad. The declared it is all about ensuring the letter I sent, I'm part of a declared, I authorize and vote positively.

The maliciousness has entered the red and whatever I do, it turns into a scandal and inexpressible magnitude is given by January 25. Know our principles, that I have obligations to a 11 year old girl, who came to spend a weekend in Greece, talked to Tsakalotos and with Tsipras, and from there the maliciousness of SMEs, the paint maliciousness them does not pass to the people. I assure you that the world comes out and tells me ... do not confuse the media with public opinion. Remember what you told the media before the referendum and voted that the Greek people.
The media are a carcinogen part of society as it has evolved in Greece, they are part of the triangle of sin. On the one hand we have the banking system, on the other hand we have the government procurement system and on the other we have the media.
I did not say that there is not any good. I said that on the whole the media system unfortunately is through mass terror and misinformation here in Greece. The more a country is bankrupt ... I talked about the system, not its employees. Its employees strive to the best of their abilities. Unfortunately you a piece bankrupt system and interests, which unfortunately are more in line with the extension of the bankruptcy of Greece in the future, despite the reorganization and recovery of the Greek economy.

I have not taken a single penny from my lectures and I will not get a single penny. The MP'm not going to have another occupation. As should be the case for everyone. But right now I have something better to do. To study the bills. The reason I was a candidate with SYRIZA, he was because I was asked. If i am asked again, obviously I will be a candidate. I did not come for me to leave. "
Click to expand...
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
ElTorro said:
Super random OT question watching that stream: If I were to learn ancient Greek, would I be able to understand some contemporary Greek too?
Click to expand...

That's more or less how I did it. Well, it doesn't really help understand contemporary Greek in and of itself, but it makes picking it up much faster. Same way that if you know Latin most of the Romance languages become easy mode.

EDIT: my Greek is pigeon Greek tho, I can't proper conversations or anything, just get around, find out where stuff is, etc.
 
O

oti

Banned
ND guy makes pointless speech.
Thanks for letting us wait, dude.


I guess the guy wants to position himself as a potential presidential candidate for the next elections.
 
YourMaster

YourMaster

Member
ElTorro said:
Super random OT question watching that stream: If I were to learn ancient Greek, would I be able to understand some contemporary Greek too?
Click to expand...
Why don't you read this old English poem while you think it over.
Hwæt, ic swefna cyst secgan wylle,
hwæt me gemætte to midre nihte
siþþan reordberend reste wunedon.
þuhte me þæt ic gesawe syllicre treow
on lyft lædan leohte bewunden,
beama beorhtost. Eall þæt beacen wæs
begoten mid golde; gimmas stodon
fægere æt foldan sceatum,
swylce þær fife wæron
uppe on þæm eaxlegespanne.
Beheoldon þær engeldryhta fela
fægere þurh forþgesceaft;
ne wæs þær huru fracodes gealga,
ac hine þær beheoldon halige gastas,
men ofer moldan,
and eall þeos mære gesceaft.
Click to expand...

This English text is not as old as ancient Greek by the way.
 
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