PdotMichael
Banned
Can't read the second link because the website wants my money for it.
And the two proposals wouldn't improve the flawed tax system in any way.
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Greece has no money to pay the IMF, default imminent
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Can't read the second link because the website wants my money for it.
And the two proposals wouldn't improve the flawed tax system in any way.
It's basically on life support already. Only thing keeping it alive is the ELA cap being highered every few days.
foxuzamaki
Doesn't read OPs, especially not his own
Is the whole world going broke
exmachina64
Banned
It's a complex answer.
Objectively, no, because money isn't real.
Subjectively, yes, because we're psychologically confused about concepts like economies and nations.
Those are two separate onions to peel, and the second one is where the mess is.
FlyingSaucer
Banned
The whole world is already broke, we are just trying to keep on partying a little while longer.
TheLaughingStock
Member
Sorry folks I typed 0 on the PC and there's nothing left. If there's a recession, natural disaster, or a financial crisis I just can't afford to do anything about it. I even got rid of all the money printers when I upgraded the PCs to Windows 10 for free.
The interesting thing to follow is Target2 & ELA, NCBs on the hook for the money. Bundesbank et al are basically financing a bank run. Have no idea how this plays out. Greece can literally destroy it's NCB and say hey we have a new one, what happens to the Target2 obligations? Greece creates bad NCB?
Funny how for people who don't seem to want the Euro, will gladly hoard it and stuff it under their beds.
CyclopsRock
Member
Ludicrous comment.
Ugh
People have withdrawn billions of euros in the past few days. But, Greek people have no money?
Yeah because people going through hardships need all your condescented judgement.
Where the fuck has our socialist spirit gone europe? Everything i've seen lately is servitude toward banks and corps. Plz prove me wrong.
jakonovski
Member
I owe no allegiance to Europeans from other nations. Complete strangers as far as I'm concerned.
PdotMichael
Banned
You can blame them, because not the average Greece is doing that but all the riches who want to get their tax free money out of Greece.
Yeah man, glory to the corporate master race. There's plenty of blame to share all around, especially on EU and the failed austerity, however the Greece government reps have acted like spoiled children throwing tantrums and have pissed away all my sympathy. And guess who voted those in power based on promises they could never keep?
So, you admit that austerity was a disaster, but have no pity for Greece's government who was forced to take that austerity, but has finally pushed back against it? You have no sympathy for Greeks who finally voted a government who is against the failed policies of austerity in the hopes of turning their economically ravaged country because their reps have complained that austerity is a disaster? How the hell does that make any sense?
PdotMichael
Banned
Well, I would claim that voting corrupt and incompetent politicans the past decades had some negative effects as well.
But yeah, the evil foreign nations and banks are killing Greece right now.
A Fish Aficionado
I am going to make it through this year if it kills me
Do you have any source for the "don't seem to want the Euro" claim? What I have read lately says surveys show most Greeks still want the euro currency.
The Greeks overwhelmingly want to stay in the Euro.
I do not, because the promises the current party made were completely unrealistic and most of their blame started shifting outside Greece, since it seems to be easier to rally the voting base against an outside enemy. When the ruling party actually carries out effective reforms and effects start to show, I will reconsider my position.
It's a half-joke, half-venting post, but despite what they kept saying, their action were contrary to that in a sense.
I think most of us know what it's about by now. Plenty of blame to go all around.
Coriolanus
Banned
Theyve been carrying out the troika's reforms for five years, mate. All theyve to show for it is a bigger hole.
Which, funny you should mention it, is why the new government wants to carry ouy effective reforms. And is being cockblocked.
Greece debt talks: Crisis deepens amid deadlock
Greece and its international creditors remain in deadlock over its debt crisis despite a series of top-level meetings.
Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras failed to reach a deal with Greece's lenders, then a meeting of European finance ministers broke up without progress.
BBC
Only few days left to find a compromise.
Ether_Snake
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I think no compromise will take place. No politician wants to look like they lost in this, so both sides will look for and agreement neither side will accept.
Of course, I think this is really the EU's problem more than Greece's on the long term.
Of course, I think this is really the EU's problem more than Greece's on the long term.
That's sound logic, but somehow that same sound logic has been failing for years with all the "extend and pretend" that has been taking place!
I wouldn't bet on it either way...
Earthstrike
Member
Idono, the flip side is the EU wants to avoid the euro plummeting in value and will do anything at the last second to preserve the union.
Ether_Snake
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But the Troika wants to punish Syriza, which I think they see as more important than keeping Greece in. They thought Tsipras would lose support but he won't in any meaningful way during the negotiations. What the Troika is afraid of is a deal that allows Tsipras and Syriza to come out of this claiming victory, because then it will send the signal to the rest of southern Europe that such parties don't spell doom for them but are instead the only parties standing up to protect people and their services, pensions, etc.
What the Troika is looking for is shaming Syriza and other such parties, and I think they are stupid enough to let Greece go and then try to spin the next few years to make it look like it was a horrible idea for Greece to not accept their proposal.
They are that stupid. But if Greece stays or leaves, it will lead to the same surge of support for the political parties the Troika wishes to undermine, no matter what happens in Greece after, people will blame the Troika for sending everyone who doesn't capitulate to their doom and they'll want protection from them, not bow down in fear of being the next Greece.
There's also very little being done to change the way Greek people think about taxes (they are for suckers) and the way Greece enables tax avoidance through dumb loopholes (not finishing your building properly to avoid incurring property tax) - there needs to be a cultural shift to match the economic one and I don't see it being talked about.
Prime crotch
Banned
Culture shifts rarely work and or take too long, the best way is to do what every other first world country did, improve it's economy by banking it with long term loans. That tends to change culture real fast.
PdotMichael
Banned
It says a lot when a left-wing goverment doesn't even try to change suchs things. Greek ship companies own 15% of the maritime trade but the country gets nothing.
cyberheater
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There is no way they will allow Greece to default and leave the EU.
They will write off the dept if needed to keep the Eurozone intact.
They will write off the dept if needed to keep the Eurozone intact.
PumpkinSpice
Banned
They should have done this a long time ago.
There's been plenty of talk about it, but talk means very little. They're proposing a VAT increase to 23% for food industry, up from the 6 or so percent. Hotels/tourist industry will take it on the chin, they've been coasting for years. It's hard to enact change when shit is so up side down, but I don't think the resistance is what it used to be.
Greeks realize they have to pay taxes, need to stem corruption, enforce laws and make it easier for people to do business in Greece. Problem is they don't have jobs/income and they're being taxed at higher rates then they were in the past. Hard to get everything changed so quickly, at least for this regime. It's a tough situation for all parties.
Saddest shit was this Greek Ex-pat I talked to a couple of weeks ago. Played HS ball with him, excellent player but he moved to Greece after HS only to come back a few months ago. Guy tells me he was embarrassed to tell others that he had a job, he didn't want his neighbors to feel bad. Ashamed to have a job, that's insane.
Country is bleeding talent, some youth have lost almost a decade of earning potential, those that can bail the fuck out.
I'm planning on going in early August, I'm concerned to be honest because I don't want to be there if they pull the plug, but we should have a better idea in the coming days.
PdotMichael
Banned
Working on a stab-in-the-back myth?
http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/soziales/griechenland-die-verhandlungen-sind-vorbei-a-1040726.html
Syriza wanted to increase the sales tax for energy but got told from the other Eurostates that it would be a bullshit idea because it hits the poor people the most.
Syriza is just another party which wants to protect the greek elite.
Souldestroyer Reborn
Banned
For Greece the best thing for them is to probably default otherwise it's a never ending circle.
EU wants them to increase austerity, increasing austerity does not work as has been proven many times before, even by the IMF, who are still pushing for Greece to increase austerity. Wat?
It would be interesting to see what would happen with the EU if Greece did default. At the end of the day, ultimately everyone shares a blame in this.
EU wants them to increase austerity, increasing austerity does not work as has been proven many times before, even by the IMF, who are still pushing for Greece to increase austerity. Wat?
It would be interesting to see what would happen with the EU if Greece did default. At the end of the day, ultimately everyone shares a blame in this.
Are you're extrapolating that from a single proposal of a government that needs to run surpluses to please creditors?
Indeed!
If a bank lends money to someone with poor finances and no job, I blame both the bank and the person who took the loan. In fact I might blame the bank even more, because they are professionals in that field.
The situation with institutions who lent money to Greece is exactly the same. Both the lenders (including banks, other European countries and the IMF) and Greece are to blame for the situation.
PdotMichael
Banned
A primary budget surplus - Greece and a real surplus are two different worlds.
I know what it is. Would you say it's actually the creditors that are looking out for the poor as opposed to Syriza?
PdotMichael
Banned
Based of the information from the Spiegel (which are pro-Greece and completly against kicking them out of the Euro etc.), yes.
I get the point that getting tax money from the average Greek is more likely than from the rich ones who would just leave the country or already moved their money somewhere else.
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