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[oti]

He wasn't the only one saying that. Basically all ministers said that Greece unilaterally and unexpectedly decided to leave the negotiations, that an extension of the bailout beyond the 30th is not on the table, that 'Plan B' (Grexit) is now the 'Plan A'. They all sounded pretty pissed.

I know, I mean this is finally it. No dancing around the decisions anymore. Something must happen now.

 

[TCRS]

a referendum at this time, jesus christ. that happens when you vote in a meme government.

 

[Prime crotch]

Actually, the Greek economy was growing three quarters in a row just before Tsipras took over.

After plummeting further down due to austerity contraction

 

[Xando]

Meeting between Draghi and Greek delegation in Frankfurt today is not happening. Another bad sign.
https://twitter.com/GreekAnalyst/status/614774723273211904

 

[faridmon]

Bloody Hell, as a teacher, one of the main thing I try to explain to my kids is how and why its important to take responsibility, and here you have a country full of irresponsible people.
Basically no one wants to take the bull by its horn and all of them are just dragging this out as they are hoping for an easy ride.

 

[Negotiator]

Greece leaves the euro and adopts the new drachma. The new currency will become 2 or 3 times weaker than the euro (basically on par with the Turkish lira).

ECB has to print 300 billion euros to cover the Greek debt losses. EU taxpayers are gonna be pissed.

The Euro becomes as weak as the Deutsche Mark.

Financial markets will target the next weak link (Spain, Italy, Portugal etc.)

EU countries will be forced to accept a political/fiscal union to save the euro.

This is gonna be fun...

 

[CTLance]

So they/we are doing it. Fuck.

Best of luck to all of us. This will hurt like dickens.

 

[petran79]

How about demanding some real reforms instead of simple budget cuts? For some reason, Tsipras is not going for that either. Only the IMF seems to recognise the need for those at this point.

Trust in the Euro will probably decrease if Greece defaults, and the ECB losses will be immense...

Problem is that this government did nothing to change the current corrupt establishment. In fact it was voted because it had its support. A lot of the elected politicians had their term in the previous corrupted governments. So they did everything to secure the benefits of high profile officials, against the private sector.

they want to turn Greece's wages like in the former socialist Balkan and Eastern European countries. But those countries were the opposite of Greece. Even East Germany. They had to endure 2 decades of hardships after their economic collapse and managed to reach a tolerable state and adjust their earning and prices. East Germany is still helped by West Germany. Greece welcomed them to the EU as well and they did sign in Athens the Treaty of Ascension in 2003.

But Greece entered the Euro with falsified data and had to adjust wages and prices accordingly. Some products and services had doubled in price compared to pre-Euro.
Now they ask to go back to pre-Euro prices, wages and pensions. This does not work that simply.

 

[Prime crotch]

Bloody Hell, as a teacher, one of the main thing I try to explain to my kids is how and why its important to take responsibility, and here you have a country full of irresponsible people.
Basically no one wants to take the bull by its horn and all of them are just dragging this out as they are hoping for an easy ride.

That's some really prosecution there, Greek's have paid their due until it proved to be unbearable, but sure, they're irresponsible.

But Greece entered the Euro with falsified data and had to adjust wages and prices accordingly. Some products and services had doubled in price compared to pre-Euro.
Now they ask to go back to pre-Euro prices, wages and pensions. This does not work that simply.

Greece should have never bet allowed in, but no one cared and can't claim innocence to it. The "system" needed and wanted Greece in to further develop it's incestuous bank bubble

 

[Akyan]

It's looking pretty messy based on the comments from various finance ministers:

Comments from Finland finance minister:

I think there is a clear majority-cum-consensus inside the eurogroup that an extension of the programme is out of the question.
I think that as an avid pro-European, yesterdays announcement of a referendum was an unpleasant surprise, and I feel quite sad about the situation, especially from the perspective of the Greek people

I would argue that Plan B is becoming Plan A.

Stubb (Finland) and Guindos (Spain) both used same expression: 'Plan B' is fast turning into 'Plan A'.

https://twitter.com/LondonerVince/status/614769687675727872

 

[Vlodril]

Greek family and friends are in a really fighty mood today.

"It can't get worse than it is now so let's stir some shit up" seems to be how they see it.

They have absolutely no clue about basic economics obviously.

i really doubt the majority of greeks would actually vote no if it comes to that. i see current things not working so i may vote no myself but i am pretty sure most people will be too scared to make no a passing proposition.

 

[BrokenIcarus]

Oh man should I invest my euros into something?

 

[helloresolven]

It's laughable that Greek government wants to hold a referendum for this. Weren't they elected specifically to negotiate terms?

 

[Akyan]

It's laughable that Greek government wants to hold a referendum for this. Weren't they elected specifically to negotiate terms?

It's got a touch of madness about it... right now their PM is getting a standing ovation at their referendum debate...

 

[oti]

Oh man should I invest my euros into something?

Have you heard of amiibo yet?

 

[BrokenIcarus]

Have you heard of amiibo yet?

They're not available enough for me to buy

 

[Embearded]

Actually, the Greek economy was growing three quarters in a row just before Tsipras took over.

It's not like only the international front that was more concerned about their positions, see Tsipras/Varoufakis and their behaviour in the weeks/months after the election.

Do you actually live in Greece or did you just read that online? because there was no growth here and i live in Greece.


Some of you might have knowledge in economics but you know nothing about the situation here, about people living here and their anxiety. You speak of us just like we speak of Middle East, Sierra Nevada and any other place where bad shit is happening and we see pictures of it. But we know nothing about it....

 

[ICKE]

This is an insane situation.

People have mentioned on this forum that Greece could supposedly recover from a default within 5 years or so, provided they can implement their own currency and so forth.

But Argentina is still a basket case after 15 years. They went through a similar crisis when there was a global economic boom. Greece would have to reform its tax administration, banking sector and also float a worthless currency during a terrible recession without help from organizations such as IMF.

I can't blame people for trying to withdraw money from ATM's. Tsipras, however, is playing a political game. He is trying to distance his coalition from any decision making even though he has been responsible for the ongoing negotiations and everything that happened after the election. The man is a fucking joke, because normal people only have bad options at this point.

Greek family and friends are in a really fighty mood today.

"It can't get worse than it is now so let's stir some shit up" seems to be how they see it.

They have absolutely no clue about basic economics obviously.

The thing is that a lot of people have this mindset but it can get a lot worse. Someone who receives 850 euros as pension and is barely able to make ends meet will be in a much more difficult situation should there be a bank run and an economic collapse of some sort.

 

[Cyd0nia]

I'm sad for Europe and sad for Greece. The EU was trying to foist unnecessary levels of pain upon them, a lot of this mess is down to poor planning ahead of the single currency union, and people who weren't particularly clairvoyant predicted problems like this many many years ago.

Europe's larger powers have had the ability and the time needed to avoid something like this IMO. Now the whole Eurozone will be imperilled, and Greece will be pushed in to the arms of other partners and other ideologies as they recover. The Greeks are between a rock and a hard place, decades of austere servitude to a Europe that doesn't really give two fucks about them, or going it alone and still having to recover from the shock of whatever happens. They are entitled to reject bullying and go their own way if they decide that's what's best for them. In my view, it probably is best for them. Brussels has presided over a low-wage boom, and allowed countries suffering on the fringe to teeter towards problems such as this.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jun/22/greece-eurozone-germans-single-currency

Fitting that the oldest democracy on Earth lets the people decide.

 

[Frankfurter]

Do you actually live in Greece or did you just read that online? because there was no growth here and i live in Greece.


Some of you might have knowledge in economics but you know nothing about the situation here, about people living here and their anxiety. You speak of us just like we speak of Middle East, Sierra Nevada and any other place where bad shit is happening and we see pictures of it. But we know nothing about it....

There WAS growth. Simply look at official statistics that show that the Greek GDP grew by 0.8, 0.3 and 0.7% (non-annualized) respectively from Q1 to Q3 2014.

I didn't claim that I know how you guys feel. I'm pretty sure it's terrible, though. But imo that doesn't change the fact that we need a viable solution and imo Syriza wasn't all that interested in reaching one.
Again: I'm not saying that measures implemented were great or anything. Overall, it was a disaster and part of the blame certainly belongs to the IMF and a couple of the most influential EU members (with Germany being the no. 1 to blame there).

 

[Cyd0nia]

It's laughable that Greek government wants to hold a referendum for this. Weren't they elected specifically to negotiate terms?

To be fair to them, it's probably not that easy. I imagine the negotiations have been something like this:

Eurozone finance ministers and the IMF:
"fire nearly all of your public workforce, cut wages and take a scythe to pensions. Make regular payments that will hinder your recovery and growth. There's no evidence that this will actually help you, but do it anyway. For the next few decades, said payments will keep you chained to such policy, indebted to us, and your people poorer - but its got to be done old boy, we're doing a good job of painting you like a nation of feckless irresponsible cretins. Your children and their children might even still be paying us when you're in the grave."

Greek government:
"Can we reach a reasonable compromise? We were elected on a platform of negotiating a better deal for ordinary Greeks. We already have 20% unemployment. We're being pretty honest here, we can't make the scheduled payments and would like to find a way out of this, obviously"

Eurozone finance ministers and the IMF:
"Fire what's left of your public workforce, cut wages and take a scythe to pensions."


but with more squabbling over economic minutae obviously. All this talk of Plan B and Plan A, I'm not sure the Euro finance ministers were ever doing anything other than buying time to insulate themselves. I don't believe they've had the best interests of Greece at heart at all.

 

[okaay]

To be fair to them, it's probably not that easy. I imagine the negotiations have been something like this:

Eurozone finance ministers and the IMF:
"fire nearly all of your public workforce, cut wages and take a scythe to pensions. Make regular payments that will hinder your recovery and growth. There's no evidence that this will actually help you, but do it anyway. For the next few decades, said payments will keep you chained to such policy, indebted to us, and your people poorer - but its got to be done old boy, we're doing a good job of painting you like a nation of feckless irresponsible cretins. Your children and their children might even still be paying us when you're in the grave."

Greek government:
"Can we reach a reasonable compromise? We were elected on a platform of negotiating a better deal for ordinary Greeks. We already have 20% unemployment. We're being pretty honest here, we can't make the scheduled payments and would like to find a way out of this, obviously"

Eurozone finance ministers and the IMF:
"Fire what's left of your public workforce, cut wages and take a scythe to pensions."


but with more squabbling over economic minutae obviously. All this talk of Plan B and Plan A, I'm not sure the Euro finance ministers were ever doing anything other than buying time to insulate themselves. I don't believe they've had the best interests of Greece at heart at all.

This is getting ridiculous

 

[Wafflecakes]

To be fair to them, it's probably not that easy. I imagine the negotiations have been something like this:

Eurozone finance ministers and the IMF:
"fire nearly all of your public workforce, cut wages and take a scythe to pensions. Make regular payments that will hinder your recovery and growth. There's no evidence that this will actually help you, but do it anyway. For the next few decades, said payments will keep you chained to such policy, indebted to us, and your people poorer - but its got to be done old boy, we're doing a good job of painting you like a nation of feckless irresponsible cretins. Your children and their children might even still be paying us when you're in the grave."

Greek government:
"Can we reach a reasonable compromise? We were elected on a platform of negotiating a better deal for ordinary Greeks. We already have 20% unemployment. We're being pretty honest here, we can't make the scheduled payments and would like to find a way out of this, obviously"

Eurozone finance ministers and the IMF:
"Fire what's left of your public workforce, cut wages and take a scythe to pensions."


but with more squabbling over economic minutae obviously. All this talk of Plan B and Plan A, I'm not sure the Euro finance ministers were ever doing anything other than buying time to insulate themselves. I don't believe they've had the best interests of Greece at heart at all.

Nice strawman.

Both sides are being unreasonable on some level.

 

[wsippel]

It's got a touch of madness about it... right now their PM is getting a standing ovation at their referendum debate...

The Greek government consists of a bunch of incapable lunatics. I remember a few days ago when they explained that they couldn't fight tax evasion because austerity forced them to fire most of the investigators. The rest of Europe rolled their eyes so hard, they almost popped out of their sockets. Nobody told them to do that, it made no fucking sense whatsoever, no sane person would do that - at that point it became pretty clear that they don't really want to fix anything. They seem to actively sabotage Greece for some reason.

 

[Slashlen]

One thing to remember about growth is that it's relative. If it was at shit levels and is now at shit+1, it still pretty much feels like shit.

 

[elrechazado]

There WAS growth. Simply look at official statistics that show that the Greek GDP grew by 0.8, 0.3 and 0.7% (non-annualized) respectively from Q1 to Q3 2014.

I didn't claim that I know how you guys feel. I'm pretty sure it's terrible, though. But imo that doesn't change the fact that we need a viable solution and imo Syriza wasn't all that interested in reaching one.
Again: I'm not saying that measures implemented were great or anything. Overall, it was a disaster and part of the blame certainly belongs to the IMF and a couple of the most influential EU members (with Germany being the no. 1 to blame there).

Your statistics and facts are no match for feelings and anecdotes.

 

[Theonik]

The Greek government consists of a bunch of incapable lunatics. I remember a few days ago when they explained that they couldn't fight tax evasion because austerity forced them to fire most of the investigators. The rest of Europe rolled their eyes so hard, they almost popped out of their sockets. Nobody told them to do that, it made no fucking sense whatsoever, no sane person would do that - at that point it became pretty clear that they don't really want to fix anything. They seem to actively sabotage Greece for some reason.

Part of the demands from their creditors were to drastically reduce the public sector workforce. Or you don't think that includes the tax collection agencies. In essence, the austerity measures put a massive burden on the running of the Greek state to the point the hospitals are about to run out of money and first aid supplies.
"No-one told you to do this!" doesn't quite apply when this is exactly the reforms that are demanded.

 

[wsippel]

Part of the demands from their creditors were to drastically reduce the public sector workforce. Or you don't think that includes the tax collection agencies. In essence, the austerity measures put a massive burden on the running of the Greek state to the point the hospitals are about to run out of money and first aid supplies.
"No-one told you to do this!" doesn't quite apply when this is exactly the reforms that are demanded.

If you have a massive problem with tax evasion (as Greece does) and need money quickly (as Greece does), the one thing you absolutely won't do is to fire investigators (yet that's what Greece did). Because those investigators make you more money than they cost. The Greek government was told to reduce the public sector workforce because it was bloated and a lot of it was just a pointless money sink, but the investigators were actually needed and could have helped fix the shit Greece is in. If anything, Greece needed more investigators. Showing that they crack down on tax evasion would have sent a positive signal to the EU and the IMF too, even if it would have been slightly more expensive in the short term. In fact, dealing with tax evasion was one thing many EU economists and politicians suggested or even demanded. Doing the opposite, then blaming austerity measures and the EU isn't just utterly stupid, it's a slap in the face.

 

[1.21Gigawatts]

Nice strawman.

Both sides are being unreasonable on some level.

I don't think what the EU asks of greece is unreasonable.
I mean, many other countries rightfully stated that they, too had to make significant moves and cutbacks some time ago to get back on their feet and in order to receive financial help.
Now greece has to do the same.

Unfortunately the greek goverment was elected on the promises to avoid these cutbacks and reforms but they apparantly didn't have an alternative.

I think at this point Tsipras realized that he failed and now he wants to hand over resposibility by letting the greek people vote. Very weak, if you ask me.

 

[tokkun]

This is getting ridiculous

It's pretty amazing to see how the tone of discussions on this forum have completely reversed from the early years of the crisis. Back then it seemed like the majority opinion was that Greeks were lazy tax-dodgers. Nowadays the EU are sharks who knew better than to trust hapless Greece, but couldn't resist their chance to take a pound of flesh.

I think it comes down to the fact that austerity has become such an identity politics issue between liberals and conservatives over the intervening years.

 

[Wafflecakes]

I don't think what the EU asks of greece is unreasonable.
I mean, many other countries rightfully stated that they, too had to make significant moves and cutbacks some time ago to get back on their feet and in order to receive financial help.
Now greece has to do the same.

Unfortunately the greek goverment was elected on the promises to avoid these cutbacks and reforms but they apparantly didn't have an alternative.

I think at this point Tsipras realized that he failed and now he wants to hand over resposibility by letting the greek people vote. Very weak, if you ask me.

Fair enough.

By all accounts, Europe should have left Greece to rot from the get go. They got themselves into this mess.

It seems rather pretentious for them to turn around and now blame Europe for not saving their asses generously enough.

 

[Ether_Snake]

Will there even be a referendum if the EU/ECB pulls the last life line? Is this what Tsipras and Co are betting on? "They didn't even let us vote."

It's exactly what the Troika don't want, they don't want people to be involved in the process, because it will tie their hands in the future. So you can be 100% certain that now that Syriza said they will put the proposal to a referendum, the Troika will remove the proposal and say negotiations are over.

I repeat that the true goal for them has been to undermine Syriza and make sure that political parties don't start relying on a democratic process to determine how they will negotiate. They want Syriza to fail, to send a message to all of Europe that the people have no say in any if this. It will do the opposite and break the EU. They are showing their true colors and this will increase support for parties like Syriza.

Watch Spain next.

 

[Embearded]

There WAS growth. Simply look at official statistics that show that the Greek GDP grew by 0.8, 0.3 and 0.7% (non-annualized) respectively from Q1 to Q3 2014.

I didn't claim that I know how you guys feel. I'm pretty sure it's terrible, though. But imo that doesn't change the fact that we need a viable solution and imo Syriza wasn't all that interested in reaching one.
Again: I'm not saying that measures implemented were great or anything. Overall, it was a disaster and part of the blame certainly belongs to the IMF and a couple of the most influential EU members (with Germany being the no. 1 to blame there).

Maybe the numbers show growth but not our lives. There wasn't any sign of growth on the streets and the common people. Day by day it's getting harder to find a job as shops are closing one after the other. There is simply no sign of growth! I don't know how they get those numbers.

If you are referring on the surplus that Samaras and N.D was claiming that our country had, that was a big fat lie. The state owes money to every pharmacy since Samaras was PM. In my neighbourhood only, they owe 300.000€ to the pharmacies and that's insane! The surplus was money they had to give to a certain group of people which was never given.



I know you guys don't like Syriza and the truth is that i didn't like them from the very beginning for many reasons but letting your people choose, even if it is for their ass to get away with it, is the right thing to do with every critical matter.
Right now, most of the people i've talked to, want to vote NO, just because they don't want more austerity and keep living like that until 2050. We keep selling our land and services and nothing changes. Better go default now, and use whatever is still ours, than go default in 10 years when we won't have anything else to sell.

 

[Coriolanus]

Called it

Tomorrow the House of Representatives will be urgently convened to ratify the proposal of the cabinet for a referendum next Sunday, July 5 on the question of the acceptance or the rejection of the proposal of institutions.

Which is how they make the whole thing constitutionally sound, mind. President can't call a referend solo in fiscal matters. Either way, bases are covered.

But Argentina is still a basket case after 15 years. They went through a similar crisis when there was a global economic boom. Greece would have to reform its tax administration, banking sector and also float a worthless currency during a terrible recession without help from organizations such as IMF.

Argentina's been under the rule of the same family for twelve years in a row. Literally husband (which died) and wife. Not a particularly good example.

Your statistics and facts are no match for feelings and anecdotes.

Oh hey, i see someone's trying to trot out the line on greece having a minor growth spurt before Syriza got the jerb. Time to pull out the graphic again.

oh hey, look at that. that growth? when government DIDN'T cut the budget that fiscal year. Whodafucken thunk.

 

[oti]

The thing is that a lot of people have this mindset but it can get a lot worse. Someone who receives 850 euros as pension and is barely able to make ends meet will be in a much more difficult situation should there be a bank run and an economic collapse of some sort.

I know, but they don't. For most of the people I know this has become an "us against them, they want to humiliate Greece and buy all it's assets" kinda deal. I don't even try to explain them some basic economic ideas anymore. They've decided the real story goes like this and that's it.

 

[Prime crotch]

Your statistics and facts are no match for feelings and anecdotes.

Or maybe read statistics better, a growth in relation to a vertiginous drop is not "growth"

 

[Xando]

I know you guys don't like Syriza and the truth is that i didn't like them from the very beginning for many reasons but letting your people choose, even if it is for their ass to get away with it, is the right thing to do with every critical matter.
Right now, most of the people i've talked to, want to vote NO, just because they don't want more austerity and keep living like that until 2050. We keep selling our land and services and nothing changes. Better go default now, and use whatever is still ours, than go default in 10 years when we won't have anything else to sell.

So what do you think will happen when greeks vote no and you guys default? If there is a default it will get much worse.

 

[Theonik]

Fair enough.

By all accounts, Europe should have left Greece to rot from the get go. They got themselves into this mess.

But they never would have done that for as long as their banks were deep into this mess so that decision was not really that simple.

If you have a massive problem with tax evasion (as Greece does) and need money quickly (as Greece does), the one thing you absolutely won't do is to fire investigators (yet that's what Greece did). Because those investigators make you more money than they cost. The Greek government was told to reduce the public sector workforce because it was bloated and a lot of it was just a pointless money sink, but the investigators were actually needed and could have helped fix the shit Greece is in. If anything, Greece needed more investigators. Showing that they crack down on tax evasion would have sent a positive signal to the EU and the IMF too, even if it would have been slightly more expensive in the short term. In fact, dealing with tax evasion was one thing many EU economists and politicians suggested or even demanded. Doing the opposite, then blaming austerity measures and the EU isn't just utterly stupid, it's a slap in the face.

There is a lot more to it than that. In the first place, the greatest part of the Greek public sector bloat was in the tax system, it was intentionally ineffective and adding more resources to the problem proved largely fruitless and was done without much forethought leading to big deficits in other parts that you also need to run a country. In the first place you are completely failing to address the root problems that Greece faces.

 

[Coriolanus]

So what do you think will happen when greeks vote no and you guys default? If there is a default it will get much worse.

Should be also pointed out that if there isn't, they've five years worth of data to prove that it'll also get plenty worse.

 

[wsippel]

There is a lot more to it than that. In the first place, the greatest part of the Greek public sector bloat was in the tax system, it was intentionally ineffective and adding more resources to the problem proved largely fruitless and was done without much forethought leading to big deficits in other parts that you also need to run a country. In the first place you are completely failing to address the root problems that Greece faces.

That's one thing the Greek government and I have in common then, apparently.

 

[Xando]

Should be also pointed out that if there isn't, they've five years worth of data to prove that it'll also get plenty worse.

Where is greece supposed to get funding from if there is no deal?

Please don't say Russia.

 

[Coriolanus]

Where is greece supposed to get funding from if there is no deal?

Please don't say Russia.

So glad that you know it.

Either way, once theyre back to their own currency, they`ll devalue the fuck outta it and you should be able to get a very nice vacation there, mate. Win win.

If you have a massive problem with tax evasion (as Greece does) and need money quickly (as Greece does), the one thing you absolutely won't do is to fire investigators (yet that's what Greece did). Because those investigators make you more money than they cost. The Greek government was told to reduce the public sector workforce because it was bloated and a lot of it was just a pointless money sink, but the investigators were actually needed and could have helped fix the shit Greece is in. If anything, Greece needed more investigators. Showing that they crack down on tax evasion would have sent a positive signal to the EU and the IMF too, even if it would have been slightly more expensive in the short term. In fact, dealing with tax evasion was one thing many EU economists and politicians suggested or even demanded. Doing the opposite, then blaming austerity measures and the EU isn't just utterly stupid, it's a slap in the face.

Mind linking the source on that? Google isn't being kind to me today.

 

[Theonik]

That's one thing the Greek government and I have in common then, apparently.

I meant in terms of tax collection in particular. Increasing auditing doesn't help in the situation that Greece is in. The mass hysteria that has happened in these past months have done much more damage to the Greek banking sector and tax collection.

Where is greece supposed to get funding from if there is no deal?

Please don't say Russia.

Kickstarter.

 

[Embearded]

So what do you think will happen when greeks vote no and you guys default? If there is a default it will get much worse.

Things will be extremely tough with hunger and poverty, at least for a large number of people for many years. But the land will be ours, so will be everything else that hasn't been sold to the opportunists and the crows.
I fully understand the struggle that we will have to go through and i welcome it, if my other option is to sell out, what others have fought and died for 70 years ago.

 

[Wafflecakes]

Things will be extremely tough with hunger and poverty, at least for a large number of people for many years. But the land will be ours, so will be everything else that hasn't been sold to the opportunists and the crows.
I fully understand the struggle that we will have to go through and i welcome it, if my other option is to sell out, what others have fought and died for 70 years ago.

I suppose it is your choice if you want to cut off your nose to spite your face...

 

[wsippel]

Mind linking the source on that? Google isn't being kind to me today.

I couldn't find it using Google either, there have simply been too many articles about tax investigation in Greece in recent years. It was on TV, ZDF news I believe. A couple of weeks ago.

Now, one problem is that Greek tax investigators were apparently not very efficient and quite often corrupt, so if the system itself is flawed, it would have needed a complete overhaul or even a replacement. I remember that Schäuble offered to send 500 German tax investigators to help out earlier this year, but I don't think those plans came to fruition.

 

[Sephiroth503]

Has there been any indication at all that Greece is going to reform its tax system?

Surely even if they default, systemic problems like their taxation needs to be addressed in any future version of the country.

 

[Coriolanus]

I couldn't find it using Google either, there have simply been too many articles about tax investigation in Greece in recent years. It was on TV, ZDF news I believe. A couple of weeks ago.

Now, one problem is that Greek tax investigators were apparently not very efficient and quite often corrupt, so if the system itself is flawed, it would have needed a complete overhaul or even a replacement. I remember that Schäuble offered to send 500 German tax investigators to help out earlier this year, but I don't think those plans came to fruition.

I also failed to find those news, soo... might wanna avoid repeating that until a proper source is found. Tax evasion on greece is no doubt a serious problem, mind, but the bit about firing tax investigators? doesn't pan out.

And yeah, schauble offered that. Which was quite the silly offer. Greece already sees Germany (and particularly Schauble) as an antagonist, and you'd have german investigators going into greek companies looking for crimes? How well do you think that would've gone? Dudes would have to be borderline suicidal to take that job.

Has there been any indication at all that Greece is going to reform its tax system?

Surely even if they default, systemic problems like their taxation needs to be addressed in any future version of the country.

Well, syriza did run on tax evasion reform, going after the big fishes and whatnot. One could point out that they've done very little in that regard so far, but one can also point out that they've been in power for a very short while with quite a few bigger immediate problems to solve, so.... eh.

 

[Embearded]

I suppose it is your choice if you want to cut off your nose to spite your face...

Well if the other choice would be to sell my face to you so i can repay your for the money that you lend me so i will be on your debt in the first place, yeah hand me the knife.

And yeah, schauble offered that. Which was quite the silly offer. Greece already sees Germany (and particularly Schauble) as an antagonist, and you'd have german investigators going into greek companies looking for crimes? How well do you think that would've gone? Dudes would have to be borderline suicidal to take that job.
.

Politicians didn't want them, but we, the people have been asking for something like that for years. Of course it never happened as those in power will be found guilty for all their frauds.

 

[SnakeXs]

I suppose it is your choice if you want to cut off your nose to spite your face...

As a Greek American who has been living here for a few months, there's currently no hope. The act of struggling, which is abundant to say the least, I'd much easier when you know it's for the better. The sense I get is that people just want to feel like the suffering is for something better. Currently it's just the new normal with absolutely no light at the end of the tunnel. A default, as hard and complicated a pill as that is to swallow, has hope after done expected, and honestly accepted, hardship.