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[Acorn]

not out of the imf contribution

Ah of course

 

[CyclopsRock]

IIRC the UK was the single biggest contributor to the Irish bailout, though.

I believe that's right, but I also think we have most of that back now? Maybe. I dunno, I went on a work trip to Dublin back around Christmas and we did our best to boost the Irish economy - specifically around the Temple Bar area of Dublin.

 

[Caipirinha]

Technically speaking, the Troika only demanded a credible proposal from Greece to meet specific budgetary target goals (which they reduced from 3% GDP to 1% GDP over the course of the negotiations). They don't really care about the specifics of that proposal and how that surplus is achieved as long as the proposal is credible.

The problem with Greece's proposals just was that they are not credible. The documents are publicly available to everyone, so everyone can have a look for themselves. The Greek proposal was very unspecific, relied solely on tax increases which they assumed to be collectible (and which they never succeeded to collect in the past) and which they assumed to have no impact on the economy, and in parts on projected tax incomes pulled out of their asses (like 5G license fees).

The troika's proposals were designed to fail themselves, they weren't about Greek recovery they were about maintaining the ideological stance until the bitter end so that Ireland, Portugal, Spain etc. didn't start to think that there could be an alternative. I haven't heard a credible economist suggest there has ever been a way to avoid defaulting for months and months now - this song and dance has been for the benefit of the rest of Europe, not Greece.

I mean there have been demands in the creditors proposals that haven't even related to debt repayment that are simply bullet points of a neo-liberal agenda, and every time the Greeks suggested rises in progressive taxation, the troika simply demanded it be blanket a one instead - absolutely everything must be designed to protect the rich and extort the working class. Cynical disaster capitalism at it's worst, and by capitalism I of course mean not at all capitalism but naked neo-liberalism.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

I believe that's right, but I also think we have most of that back now? Maybe. I dunno, I went on a work trip to Dublin back around Christmas and we did our best to boost the Irish economy - specifically around the Temple Bar area of Dublin.

I think we have most of that back now and are projected to get the rest, yes. We certainly didn't do it from the goodness of our hearts.

 

[ElTorro]

And yes, there are no demands to actually cut pensions in the latest proposal. Look it up, it's not in the document. They mainly demanded to get rid of early retirements, which are mostly just a bandaid for the lack of a real social security net in Greece. Which lack I still cannot understand.

By the way, the Troika even included a specific demand for a social security net to ensure that every Greek unconditionally has enough money for basic needs.

Can anyone explain to me why a left-oriented Government has failed to even design, let alone implement, a social security net? They are not even working on that.

 

[Firemind]

He's a lying sack of shit, just like all corporate ballwashers. The document provided in the link clearly states, in the EuroGroup revised version:

And Varoufakis and co. just walked away without even bothering to negotiate. Then they keep procrastinating. What on earth are they doing?

 

[Machspeed007]

Can anyone explain to me why a left-oriented Government has failed to even design, let alone implement, a social security net? They are not even working on that.

That's because having ~1000 Euros pensions for everyone works out better for them than having social security just for the ones that need it.

 

[CyclopsRock]

By the way, the Troika even included a specific demand for a social security net to ensure that every Greek unconditionally has enough money for basic needs.

Can anyone explain to me why a left-oriented Government has failed to even design, let alone implement, a social security net? They are not even working on that.

Doesn't that just mean that they have different funding sources for different parts of the net? In the UK it used to be like that, a bit - where pensions and sick pay etc were funded from a specific tax (and therefore the size of that fund was limited, in a way, by that tax take). It's not like that anymore (though a bunch of people still seem to think it is) but it's a result of different bits of the welfare state being created at different times and requiring new funding to come into existence.

I'm not sure if that's what that passage is referring to, but I think it is.

 

[operon]

I think we have most of that back now and are projected to get the rest, yes. We certainly didn't do it from the goodness of our hearts.

It thought the UK gave us a overdraft type facilty that Ireland paid for the privilege and didn't draw down on

 

[erale]

That doesn't matter to the general German population.

Don't fear the BILD readers. After two weeks there's something else that's way more important to them. Probably some B-celebs moving into the Australian jungle.

 

[zou]

Technically speaking, the Troika only demanded a credible proposal from Greece to meet specific budgetary target goals (which they reduced from 3% GDP to 1% GDP over the course of the negotiations). They don't really care about the specifics of that proposal and how that surplus is achieved as long as the proposal is credible.

That's funny, because the IMF had the primary surplus of Greece in 2014 at 5% of GDP.

 

[Cromat]

This is hindsight obviously but the best thing for everyone involved was if Greece left the Euro back in 2010/11. I'd be surprised if they ended up staying at this point.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

A social welfare review is not the same as ensuring social welfare, particularly when the review is carried out by a group which has indicated very little interest in social welfare. The likely conclusion would have been "here are things you could do if you had money, but you give it all to us. Heh".

Greece also does have a social security net (see: http://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/progdesc/ssptw/2014-2015/europe/greece.html) ; the main oddity about it being that it remains largely hypothecated. That's definitely something that could do with reform but more for accounting reasons than availability of provision.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

It thought the UK gave us a overdraft type facilty that Ireland paid for the privilege and didn't draw down on

We gave that in addition, but we also gave loans via our contributions to the IMF and EU, to which we were the largest contributor because Ireland is de facto an adjunct of our own economy that we'd quite like to make some profit from. Apologies for my government.

 

[operon]

We gave that in addition, but we also gave loans via our contributions to the IMF and EU, to which we were the largest contributor because Ireland is de facto an adjunct of our own economy that we'd quite like to make some profit from. Apologies for my government.

mind you I live in Northern Ireland now so I want to share in the profit

 

[Nicktendo86]

He's a lying sack of shit, just like all corporate ballwashers. The document provided in the link clearly states, in the EuroGroup revised version:

Hey, be fair to him, he was probably on his second or third taxpayer funded glass of wine by the time he made those comments.

 

[Coriolanus]

Looking at how the markets are reacting, all the ministers that said that there's no risk of contagion are looking quite silly, tbqh.

This is hindsight obviously but the best thing for everyone involved was if Greece left the Euro back in 2010/11. I'd be surprised if they ended up staying at this point.

That would've been the best thing for Greece, yes. Would've destroyed the Euro at the time, however.

 

[Caipirinha]

mind you I live in Northern Ireland now so I want to share in the profit

Northern Ireland / profit

Pick one

 

[Nikodemos]

And Varoufakis and co. just walked away without even bothering to negotiate. Then they keep procrastinating. What on earth are they doing?

I suspect they were fighting a delaying action until the Troika proposed them a solution that (while generally shit, just like all of the Troika's ideas) was more or less usable. When that were to happen, they would call a snap referendum to lock in the programme, so that the Troika would not be able to pull a "I have altered the terms; pray I don't alter them further".

 

[Deleted member 231381]

mind you I live in Northern Ireland now so I want to share in the profit

God bless the Queen etc etc.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

Thought Osborne got us out of that?

Well, yeah. He never struck me as the particularly munificent type. And we're not even in the Euro, so I was kinda hoping we'd kept out of this one.

 

[Coriolanus]

When the full tale of the eurozone crisis is finally written, the last hour deserves a special mention.

Jean-Claude Juncker, president of the European Commission, has made a remarkable intervention into the Greek crisis in what looks like desperate, last-gasp bid to prevent the country ploughing out of the eurozone.

He has effectively told the Greek people that they are choosing between the euro and the exit door on Sunday, that their government has lied to them, and that he has been their friend and ally at the negotiating table.

Underneath it all, the desperate fear that the European project is swerving off course and about to lose its first member.

Juncker confirmed the claim that Greece’s creditors were prepared to discuss debt relief as part of a future aid deal, before Alexis Tsipras shattered hopes of a breakthrough last weekend.

A clearly wounded Juncker spoke of feeling “deeply distressed and saddened by the spectacle that Europe gave last Saturday”.

In a single night, the European conscience has taken a heavy blow. Goodwill has somewhat evaporated.

Crucially, Juncker is not offering a new compromise. Instead, he is arguing that the Commission was making a fair proposal – not “stupid austerity” – for the Greek people.

But his comments on the referendum are jaw-dropping: telling Greeks to vote Yes in Sunday’s referendum is one thing, but warning “not to commit suicide for fear of death” is another level altogether.

And he has raised the stakes in Sunday’s referendum to the highest level possible, by warning that “the whole planet” will see a no vote as a declaration that Greece wants to leave Europe.

From Guardian. Snap coverage.

That suicide over death thing...yikes. Why yes, let us bring up suicides when they've increased dramatically during austerity. What a brilliant idea.

 

[crunozaurus]

Lol, reading about Greece going default or that Deutschebank could go bancrupt is making me paranoid.

I have no real financial knowledge, but is there anything I shoud do with the little money I have (let's say 5k$ in PLN - I live in Poland btw.) saved over the past few months? (recently started working)

Should I converse some of my funds to USD, BTC? Or should I just chill out?

 

[Caipirinha]

From Guardian. Snap coverage.

That suicide over death thing...yikes. Why yes, let us bring up suicides when they've increased dramatically during austerity. What a brilliant idea.

Give the poor guy a break, it's hard not to mince your words after a couple of glasses/bottles of taxpayer-bought wine.

 

[anonymous_abc]

Lol, reading about Greece going default or that Deutschebank could go bancrupt is making me paranoid.

I have no real financial knowledge, but is there anything I shoud do with the little money I have (let's say 5k$ in PLN - I live in Poland btw.) saved over the past few months? (recently started working)

Should I converse some of my funds to USD, BTC? Or should I just chill out?

No, don't worry about it.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Lol, reading about Greece going default or that Deutschebank could go bancrupt is making me paranoid.

I have no real financial knowledge, but is there anything I shoud do with the little money I have (let's say 5k$ in PLN - I live in Poland btw.) saved over the past few months? (recently started working)

Should I converse some of my funds to USD, BTC? Or should I just chill out?

The Eurozone has largely isolated Greece financially, and most of the damage a default could cause was priced in either today or yesterday. I have some friends in financial analytics and all their companies privately view Grexit as at least 90% likely if not more. As such, there's probably no point in doing anything.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

Lol, reading about Greece going default or that Deutschebank could go bancrupt is making me paranoid.

I have no real financial knowledge, but is there anything I shoud do with the little money I have (let's say 5k$ in PLN - I live in Poland btw.) saved over the past few months? (recently started working)

Should I converse some of my funds to USD, BTC? Or should I just chill out?

Put it all into Bitcoins!

Spoiler

Don't actually do that

 

[Theonik]

Put it all into Bitcoins!

Spoiler

Don't actually do that

Yes. Dogecoin is a much better bet.

 

[CyclopsRock]

Looking at how the markets are reacting, all the ministers that said that there's no risk of contagion are looking quite silly, tbqh.

The UK's doing surprisingly well - Lloyds and RBS are down less than 2% each, which is fairly normal. Santander and BNP (the first two I thought to check) are both down over 5%.

Fucking god bless you, John Major.

 

[petran79]

a clarification for the proposed measures:

-cutting military budget from 400 to 200 million Euro

This does not mean the military will get fewer weapons. They'll get the same amount.
It means that half of military personel will have to be fired or else reduced their salary by half.
A collegeue whose husband works in the military explained it to us.

With Turkey as neighbour this amounts to suicide

 

[oti]

Yes. Dogecoin is a much better bet.

amiibo

 

[Nicktendo86]

Fucking god bless you, John Major.

He was the hero we deserved, but no the one we needed in 97.

 

[CyclopsRock]

a clarification for the proposed measures:

-cutting military budget from 400 to 200 million Euro

This does not mean the military will get fewer weapons. They'll get the same amount.
It means that half of military personel will have to be fired or else reduced their salary by half.
A collegeue whose husband works in the military explained it to us.

With Turkey as neighbour this amounts to suicide

Are they dual-wielding or something? Seems like a lowering of personnel would naturally go hand in hand with a lowering of arms, non?

 

[Coriolanus]

Fucking god bless you, John Major.

He's the one that decided that the UK should stay out of the monetary union?

Are they dual-wielding or something? Seems like a lowering of personnel would naturally go hand in hand with a lowering of arms, non?

"More Dakka" is a tried and true military strat.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

Yes. Dogecoin is a much better bet.

 

[Vade]

a clarification for the proposed measures:

-cutting military budget from 400 to 200 million Euro

This does not mean the military will get fewer weapons. They'll get the same amount.
It means that half of military personel will have to be fired or else reduced their salary by half.
A collegeue whose husband works in the military explained it to us.

With Turkey as neighbour this amounts to suicide

If you honestly believe the Turks would throw any remaining ties with Europe and the EU as a whole just to get some land and honor back from the Greeks you are more paranoid than the right-wing parties in the US.

 

[jimi_dini]

By the way, the Troika even included a specific demand for a social security net to ensure that every Greek unconditionally has enough money for basic needs.

It's says "review".
As in "let's look at it. And maybe change something. Maybe not. At some point. Who the fuck cares."

It doesn't say anything like "demand" or "ensure that every Greek unconditionally...". As if they would give a fuck about the regular population. If they would have given fucks, the situation wouldn't be as bad as it currently is.

Do I have to remind you about the explosion of suicide rate in Greek? But nope, let's take away pensions as well, because that will surely solve those issues.
Well it will surely "solve" some of the issues. By getting more people to jump from a bridge.

Troika using the word "fairness", HA. Disgusting pieces of shit.

Can anyone explain to me why a left-oriented Government has failed to even design, let alone implement, a social security net? They are not even working on that.

They got into power last year. What do you expect? There is so much fucked up, so many terrible decisions were made. They can't just snip with their fingers to fix it all.

 

[operon]

a clarification for the proposed measures:

-cutting military budget from 400 to 200 million Euro

This does not mean the military will get fewer weapons. They'll get the same amount.
It means that half of military personel will have to be fired or else reduced their salary by half.
A collegeue whose husband works in the military explained it to us.

With Turkey as neighbour this amounts to suicide

You think Turkey is going to attack another nato member

 

[Kill Your Masters]

They can't just snip with their fingers to fix it all.

Thats how they got their votes though.

a clarification for the proposed measures:

-cutting military budget from 400 to 200 million Euro

This does not mean the military will get fewer weapons. They'll get the same amount.
It means that half of military personel will have to be fired or else reduced their salary by half.
A collegeue whose husband works in the military explained it to us.

With Turkey as neighbour this amounts to suicide

Exactly this kind of thinking is what got Greece where they are regarding overspending on Military.

 

[Coriolanus]

They got into power last year. What do you expect? There is so much fucked up, so many terrible decisions were made. They can't just snip with their fingers to fix it all.

Nope. They got in power five months ago.

 

[anonymous_abc]

You think Turkey is going to attack another nato member

I cannot get over how ridiculous that idea is... As if turkey would just attack Greece or anyone else in NATO for that matter. It's absurd.

 

[jorma]

Are they dual-wielding or something? Seems like a lowering of personnel would naturally go hand in hand with a lowering of arms, non?

Well, Germany doesn't profit from Greece having soldiers on the payroll. They do sell them arms though.

 

[Theonik]

If you honestly believe the Turks would throw any remaining ties with Europe and the EU as a whole just to get some land and honor back from the Greeks you are more paranoid than the right-wing parties in the US.

Reasonably speaking? The chances are quite low. However with regard to public sentiment...
Last time Greece and Turkey were at war was in the 70s. Let that sink for a moment there.
Also there are mock dogfights between Turkish and Greek warplanes over the Aegean near weekly and they have been becoming increasingly more frequent. Back in March Greece had to complain to NATO over Turkey planning militairy exercises over Greek airspaces forcing Turkey to cancel those plans.

 

[operon]

I cannot get over how ridiculous that idea is...

Why would they attack Greece when it would be cheaper to buy up large parts of it

 

[slit]

a clarification for the proposed measures:

-cutting military budget from 400 to 200 million Euro

This does not mean the military will get fewer weapons. They'll get the same amount.
It means that half of military personel will have to be fired or else reduced their salary by half.
A collegeue whose husband works in the military explained it to us.

With Turkey as neighbour this amounts to suicide

LOL, yeah that's a big risk. It's like having NK as a neighbor.

 

[Coriolanus]

In a surprise move the deputy transport minister Christos Spirtzis has decided that all forms of transport across Athens’ transit network will be free until after the referendum is held.

Trams, trolleys, buses and trains are included in the decision and will be running free services until next Monday.

Huh.That's one way to get around fuel stations running outta gas, i guess.

 

[oti]

Don't try to understand the relationship between Greece and Turkey. I've brought up the topic of the Greek army to my family before, big mistake. Some people think Turkey is just waiting for Greece to tone down their army expenses just so they can strike.

It's complicated man. You should also not forget that Greece to this day is calling "the city" (as we call her) Constantinople and not Istanbul. FWIW I'm also for cutting the defense budget.

 

[fanboi]

Wait, people Believe Turkey will attack Greece if they lover the military budget?

Hah ah haha ha ah

hah a









ha

 

[Theonik]

Don't try to understand the relationship between Greece and Turkey. I've brought up the topic of the Greek army to my family before, big mistake. Some people think Turkey is just waiting for Greece to tone down their army expenses just so they can strike.

It's complicated man. You should also not forget that Greece to this day is calling "the city" (as we call her) Constantinople and not Istanbul. FWIW I'm also for cutting the defense budget.

Basically, it would never fly in the Greek parliament. It's a huge red flag topic.

 

[PumpkinSpice]

Huh.That's one way to get around fuel stations running outta gas, i guess.

Really smart move; they should make clear to people that it's their patriotic duty to stay out of their cars as well.