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Greece to hold referendum on austerity measures 5 July

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M

My words exactly!

Member
^^^^ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqvKjsIxT_8

Ether_Snake said:
No one would win the elections if they were to be held, it would be worst. Voting no is really the best outcome.
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Having the Potami as a trojan horse in a new government with a much reduced Syriza forced to ally with them and remnants of ND/PASOK zombies, and ousting Independent Greeks from the current government is imho the EU officials' wet dream for our country colony.
 
O

oti

Banned
Sister has decided to vote for no. Can't blame her. She doesn't really know what a no means in this case (= what consequencs might follow) and she doesn't want to. Ok I guess.

In the meantime one of my uncles declared that all of this is just propaganda and that the USA will safe Greece and is secretly controlling all of this. I have no idea. He's always like that.

So yeah, can't wait to see what tomorrow brings. I should write a book about my life I think. Crazy times.
 
C

Coriolanus

Banned
My words exactly! said:
^^^^ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqvKjsIxT_8
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240p? What are we, savages?

Might as well just link to Mark Blyth. That he's funny also helps.

My words exactly! said:
Having the Potami as a trojan horse in a new government with a much reduced Syriza forced to ally with them and remnants of ND/PASOK zombies, and ousting Independent Greeks from the current government is imho the EU officials' wet dream for our country colony.
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Would be particularly hilarious if the population ended up flocking to Antarsya. "Oh, so you thought syriza were far left, eh?".
 
P

PumpkinSpice

Banned
bigmit3737 said:
I just went to this site to learn the basics of what's going on.

http://fusion.net/story/157749/i-havent-been-paying-attention-whats-going-on-in-greece/

Really simple to understand. I just hope it's all accurate.


So according to the site, the US also borrows a ton of money, like trillions of dollars and then borrows more money to repay the previous borrowed money.
Is there a country that doesn't borrow money?! Where is everyone borrowing money from?
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Bonds; how do they work?
 
S

spindoctor

Member
Another question. If Greece votes yes and the current government resigns... Will the ruling party contest in the next elections? Because they clearly had majority support as of a few months ago. If they don't contest, the Greek population has to choose a party which doesn't actually have the most support. And if they do, and they win, well... Wouldn't that be awkward next time negotiations start?

"Hi guys, we're back"
 
C

Coriolanus

Banned
spindoctor said:
Another question. If Greece votes yes and the current government resigns... Will the ruling party contest in the next elections? Because they clearly had majority support as of a few months ago. If they don't contest, the Greek population had to choose a party which doesn't actually have the most support. And if they do, and they win, well... Wouldn't that be awkward next time negotiations start?

"Hi guys, we're back"
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Syriza will most likely fracture if that happens, and the way the parliamentary system in Greece is set up, even if you've only the tinyest of margins when #1, you get a lot of extra seats.
 
S

Syriel

Member
bigmit3737 said:
So according to the site, the US also borrows a ton of money, like trillions of dollars and then borrows more money to repay the previous borrowed money.
Is there a country that doesn't borrow money?! Where is everyone borrowing money from?
Click to expand...

US sells bonds to people, countries, etc. with a promise of interest+principal paid back over time.

People buy the bonds as safe investments because the know the US will pay them as promised.

Since the US has great credit (and is low risk) people keep buying.

Greece is seen as having bad credit (and is high risk) so no one wants to buy their bonds.

At a high level, it's the same with credit cards and loans on a personal level.

If you have good credit, you can get super cheap loans at low interest rates.

If you have poor credit, you're stuck paying the payday lender 40% interest on a $500 loan.
 
C

Coriolanus

Banned
To add to that, US bonds are held in dollars, so the US will *always* be able to pay them. Greek bonds are held in euros, which they can't simply print to pay, thus adding to risk.
 
N

NonexistentK

Member
Turkey can undertake Greece’s 1.6 billion euro debt, provide zero interest loan: Turkish opposition deputy.

"Turkey can undertake 1.6 billion euro debt that Greece needs to pay. It is the biggest help that Turkey can do for its neighbor when times are tough. In exchange, it will earn the friendship of Greek people; turn the Aegean Sea into a sea of peace," Kürkçü said in a press conference held in Turkey's Parliament.

Kürkçü stated that Germany, the European Central Bank (ECB) and International Monetary Fund (IMF) pressures the Syriza government to protect the interests of money, not Greece itself. Kürkçü added that this approach is against the principles of the European Union."
 
S

Souldestroyer Reborn

Banned
The thing is, that 1.6billion isn't a big deal in the grand scheme of things. The IMF isn't going to be smashing Greek doors down to get it back, usually in regards to the IMF you can go into arrears for up to 2 years before they start looking for the money back.

The real problem is the 3.5 and 3.2 billion payments to the ECB in July/Aug because the ECB aren't as friendly as the IMF.
 
H

Hammer24

Banned
EuropeOG said:
Finance GAF when should I exchange some Pounds to Euros?
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Wait what happens on July 8th, that's the really important date for the markets.

Souldestroyer Reborn said:
The thing is, that 1.6billion isn't a big deal in the grand scheme of things. The IMF isn't going to be smashing Greek doors down to get it back, usually in regards to the IMF you can go into arrears for up to 2 years before they start looking for the money back.

The real problem is the 3.5 and 3.2 billion payments to the ECB in July/Aug because the ECB aren't as friendly as the IMF.
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Neither is a problem in reality.
Not paying the IMF today starts a process that by the statutes of the IMF takes at least 6 months, until they can really do something about it.
Right now it only means Greece is officially cut off from IMF funds, which they are anyway.
The other payments to the ECB are not really a problem either. Both DO NOT mean Greece defaults.

The real problem starts on July 8th, when the first larger chunk of privately held bonds becomes due. If Greece can´t/won´t pay those, then they are defaulting (SD).
And right now nobody, and I guess not even the clowns in the Greek government themselves, know how many money Greece has left, if they would be even able to pay those bonds.
No matter how the referendum goes, that's the date to watch.
 
A

alexandros

Banned
nature boy said:
Reports saying that Greece is reconsidering Juncker's offer.

Seriously, this is getting ridiculous.
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There are some reports that a counter offer is being drafted. I think it is absolutely logical that both parties will try and find a last-minute solution. Despite statements to the contrary, noone really wants a break-up.
 
O

Osiris

I permanently banned my 6 year old daughter from using the PS4 for mistakenly sending grief reports as it's too hard to watch or talk to her
The Guardian is reporting that some in Syriza are imploring Tsipras to accept a deal before the deadline tonight:

Guardian Live Blog said:
...
Several cadres in Tsipras’ governing far left Syriza party, have reportedly been hitting the phones to implore Tsipras to accept the latest offer proposed by creditors.

“Developments are fast moving and they are happening right now,” the newsite said.

“According to [our] information, a serious plan is being organised by several sides so that an agreement can be reached by midnight.
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They will have their work cut out, accepting a deal today would expose what a sham move the referendum was not just to the wider world, but to the Greeks too, not sure Tsipras / Syriza could survive the fallout of reaching a deal now before the referendum.
 
A

alexandros

Banned
Osiris said:
They will have their work cut out, accepting a deal today would expose what a sham move the referendum was not just to the wider world, but to the Greeks to, not sure Tsipras / Syriza could survive the fallout of reaching a deal now before the referendum.
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Eh, they'll present it as a victory even if they basically get the same deal as before.
 
N

nature boy

Member
alexandros said:
There are some reports that a counter offer is being drafted. I think it is absolutely logical that both parties will try and find a last-minute solution. Despite statements to the contrary, noone really wants a break-up.
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Based on yesterday, I don't think the creditors will bulge.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
I'm not sure why that's surprising? The referendum was basically Tsipras entrenching his position and indicating to the troika they'd have to give a better offer. They are, behinds the scenes, apparently panicking a bit and talking about the prospect of just that. Tsipras is having a referendum because he was elected to be an anti-austerity prime minister and the current deal doesn't allow him to do that. If the troika give him an eleventh hour offer with more leeway, then why wouldn't he accept it instead of continuing with the referendum? Better for everyone that way.
 
E

EloKa

Member
there is also this rumour that Tsipras came back and wants to re-negotiate behind the scenes. And if there will be a new propsal it has to be handed out by the creditors, even if the proposal was made and signed by Tsipras because no matter what he is not willed to hand out a proposal on his own (even if it was his own).

It's a shame that a single person can gamble with the future of a whole nation just because of political ideologies or false pride
 
O

Osiris

I permanently banned my 6 year old daughter from using the PS4 for mistakenly sending grief reports as it's too hard to watch or talk to her
EloKa said:
there is also this rumour that Tsipras came back and wants to re-negotiate behind the scenes. And if there will be a new propsal it has to be handed out by the creditors, even if the proposal was made and signed by Tsipras because no matter what he is not willed to hand out a proposal on his own (even if it was his own).

It's a shame that a single person can gamble with the future of a whole nation just because of political ideologies or false pride
Click to expand...

The deal they have to make will break the election promises made by Syriza, there has never been any doubt about that, as they were always undeliverable.

So it was obvious that Tsipras would need something such as the above for political cover.

The referendum was just a cover move, made in haste and panic, he cares more about keeping Syriza in power post-deal than he cares about Greece, IMHO.
 
T

Ted Striker

Neo Member
Osiris said:
The deal they have to make will break the election promises made by Syriza, there has never been any doubt about that, as they were always undeliverable.

So it was obvious that Tsipras would need something such as the above for political cover.

The referendum was just a cover move, made in haste and panic, he cares more about keeping Syriza in power post-deal than he cares about Greece, IMHO.
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Keeping with greek politics tradition.
 
I

ICKE

Banned
Russia dismisses talk of lending money to Greece

The Kremlin has brushed off speculation that it could lend money to Greece.

Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras has visited Russia twice since April, stoking speculation that Athens could be seeking financial aid from Moscow which is eager to leverage the pro-Russian stance of the new Greek government.

But Dmitry Peskov, spokesman for President Vladimir Putin, insisted that financial help is not on the agenda. Peskov said in comments carried by Russia news agencies that providing financial assistance to Greece "is a matter .... between Greece and its creditors and not ours."

Yahoo/AP
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There is also a scathing piece from Daniel Howden on TheGuardian :

The collapse of Greece’s corrupt political centre was marked earlier this year by the election of the left coalition, Syriza. Its success was built on the lie that it could deliver the same financial aid with fewer of the austere strings than its predecessors. Now that this lie has run it course, Syriza has abdicated responsibility for its own failure.

The result will be a referendum this Sunday with a crudely designed ballot in which the “no” box is given top billing and the question is framed in almost meaningless bureaucratic language. Greece’s prime minister, Alexis Tsipras, who has gone into full obfuscation mode, will push for a “no” vote without any discussion of what that would mean. In other words, the Greek government will now campaign to have its own failure at the negotiating table endorsed by the very people it will hurt the most. And there is every chance this deception will succeed.
 
Chittagong

Chittagong

Gold Member
EuropeOG said:
Finance GAF when should I exchange some Pounds to Euros?
Click to expand...

wth man, that would be insane in my opinion. Literally the only upside I can see for EUR against GBP is a small sense of relief if we see that grexit wasn't the apocalypse we were led to believe. But the downsides are way bigger - much bigger uncertainty, other troubled economies in Europe following suit, Euro credibility evaporating... GBP, on the other hand, is much more contained to UK where the latest growth figures released today are looking better than expected.

In my opinion.
 
O

Osiris

I permanently banned my 6 year old daughter from using the PS4 for mistakenly sending grief reports as it's too hard to watch or talk to her
ICKE said:
There is also a scathing piece from Daniel Howden on TheGuardian :

The collapse of Greece’s corrupt political centre was marked earlier this year by the election of the left coalition, Syriza. Its success was built on the lie that it could deliver the same financial aid with fewer of the austere strings than its predecessors. Now that this lie has run it course, Syriza has abdicated responsibility for its own failure.

The result will be a referendum this Sunday with a crudely designed ballot in which the “no” box is given top billing and the question is framed in almost meaningless bureaucratic language. Greece’s prime minister, Alexis Tsipras, who has gone into full obfuscation mode, will push for a “no” vote without any discussion of what that would mean. In other words, the Greek government will now campaign to have its own failure at the negotiating table endorsed by the very people it will hurt the most. And there is every chance this deception will succeed.
Click to expand...

Who takes a right-wing rag like The Guardian seriously though? ;) :p
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
Osiris said:
Who takes a right-wing rag like The Guardian seriously though? ;) :p
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Howden's piece is Comment, not editorial, and doesn't (necessarily) reflect the Guardian's views.
 
F

Firemind

Member
So now they're thinking about going to court if they get kicked out of the Euro zone? Don't you have more urgent matters that requires your immediate attention?
 
O

Osiris

I permanently banned my 6 year old daughter from using the PS4 for mistakenly sending grief reports as it's too hard to watch or talk to her
Man, two smileys and calling the Guardian "right-wing" and you still missed the joke? Really?

lmao.
 
J

jakonovski

Member
What on earth does anyone think a deal will accomplish? Just kick the can forward a bit, nothing resolved, Greek people continuing to suffer.
 
Theonik

Theonik

Member
Osiris said:
Man, two smileys and calling the Guardian "right-wing" and you still missed the joke? Really?

lmao.
Click to expand...
This is the internet.

jakonovski said:
What on earth does anyone think a deal will accomplish? Just kick the can forward a bit, nothing resolved, Greek people continuing to suffer.
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Papandreou sort of let the moment to end this back in 2010 slip. Now he teaches in Harvard after basically fucking the country for the rest of eternity.
 
G

goomba

Banned
Syriza are doing the right thing by putting this to a referendum, either way they will have the will of the greek people behind them and that will likely keep them in power. Amazes me how many are against democracy.
 
T

Ted Striker

Neo Member
goomba said:
Syriza are doing the right thing by putting this to a referendum, either way they will have the will of the greek people behind them and that will likely keep them in power. Amazes me how many are against democracy.
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I am all for democracy, but a referendum for an informal proposal that is no longer valid is a mighty stupid idea.
 
F

F1Fan

Banned
goomba said:
Syriza are doing the right thing by putting this to a referendum, either way they will have the will of the greek people behind them and that will likely keep them in power. Amazes me how many are against democracy.
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They were elected like 5 months ago to represent the will of the greek people. It's completely pointless having a false referendum with only 1 selectable option. The Yes option won't exist from today onwards.

This referendum shows exact reason why Greece is always in dept and the reason why they have defaulted 6 times in the last 189 years. Holding a pointless referendum 5 days after the financial deadline, when they had 5 month time to prepare a referendum. It's only going to cost them millions upon millions which then don't have, on a stupid pointless vote. The referendum is only being held to cover the government ass, on their completely failed attempts that they promised 5 months ago. They were elected based on a lie, which they could never deliver.
 
H

Hammer24

Banned
Firemind said:
So now they're thinking about going to court if they get kicked out of the Euro zone?
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Just another smoke screen.
Of course they can´t be kicked out of the Eurozone, there is no law making this even possible.
They would be forced to leave on their own account, simply when the money runs out in a literal sense. If the ECB is not providing them with Euros anymore, they have to hand out something to pay pensions and the like. Even if they are debt certificates denominated in Euro, they´d for all practically be a second currency, as they would be traded against cash.
 
M

maquiladora

Member
Giving people just a few days to make an informed decision seems very unfair. I cannot imagine any other country in the world holding such an important referendum at such short notice. It's not good for either side of the line because there is going to be a hell of a lot of confused people.
 
Theonik

Theonik

Member
F1Fan said:
Not really, when you default once every 31 years. That is simply not normal.
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The majority of Greece's defaults were in their early history, and directly related to their war of independence and having to modernise their country.
 
O

oti

Banned
Theonik said:
The majority of Greece's defaults were in their early history, and directly related to their war of independence and having to modernise their country.
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Right. Some people really don't know what Greece has gone through in its past. Other nations would break apart but not Greece.
 
O

Osiris

I permanently banned my 6 year old daughter from using the PS4 for mistakenly sending grief reports as it's too hard to watch or talk to her
maquiladora said:
Giving people just a few days to make an informed decision seems very unfair. I cannot imagine any other country in the world holding such an important referendum at such short notice. It's not good for either side of the line because there is going to be a hell of a lot of confused people.
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The Greek government doesn't want them to make an informed decision.

It was never about "democracy", it was about trying to move from negotiations to blackmail because they cannot get the deal they want and about passing the buck for responsibility from Syriza to the Greek people in general.
 
C

Coriolanus

Banned
Osiris said:
It was never about "democracy", it was about trying to move from negotiations to blackmail because they cannot get the deal they want and about passing the buck for responsibility from Syriza to the Greek people in general.
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Eh, sorta. When the proposed package will also fail, it's blackmail on all sides, you're just choosing which flavour your prefer.
 
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