Vlodril
Member
It doesn't help when you see things like this:
When they could be looking for jobs instead.
is that a serious post?
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Greece to hold referendum on austerity measures 5 July
- Thread starter Coriolanus
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is that a serious post?
Theonik
Member
Huh, where is the source for that. Tsipras has refrained to answer that question.
Jobs? In Greece? ahaahahahahahahahaah
Fenderputty
Banned
A seriously shitty post
Is that seriously your take on this? More like "if the country's will is the complete opposite of my view someone else should get the job".
It doesn't help when you see things like this:
When they could be looking for jobs instead.
Yeah, why don't they strap on their job helmet and squeeze down into a job cannon and fire off into job land, where jobs grow on little jobbies?
Ted Striker
Neo Member
It doesn't help when you see things like this:
When they could be looking for jobs instead.
One man burns a flag , 11 million are called lazy slackers. I approve this.
spindoctor
Member
So if yes wins and the government resigns, it's just understood that the EU will continue to foot the bill until another election is held and a new government is sworn in?
jakonovski
Member
That's how democracies work.
ClosingADoor
Member
No, it is not. As far as I know they are not getting any more money after tomorrow.
The ECB will keep funding their banks until the 90 billion runs out they have set aside for them. Don't know how much they have used of that.
Vade
Member
I really hope for the big, fat NO. Which will let the Euro appreciate to where it should be rather than be pinned down by the terrible Greek Economy and thus German and French exports will no longer be criminally low because of the Euro. Anything that helps US firms from this high dollar is welcomed.
Germany is actually being ridiculous for a few cents they throw at the Greeks they gain so much for having the weak Greek machine pull the Euro down.
Germany is actually being ridiculous for a few cents they throw at the Greeks they gain so much for having the weak Greek machine pull the Euro down.
videogamer
Banned
As EU citizens, they are tremendously privileged. Economic migrants the world over don't have the benefits that the Greeks do. You see people willing to give up everything to migrate thousands of miles to the US, Australia, Europe... and this guy burns a flag instead.
I was referring to the perception of Greek people. This guy isn't helping.
Tell that to the people stating syriza will accept a yes vote and implement the programm immediately earlier in this thread.
Yeah, tell his kids how lucky they are when they're burning their tables to heat the house during the winter.
jakonovski
Member
Why should we be worried about the perception idiots have of things they don't understand?
Theonik
Member
I saw. I was watching the same interview. Am I missing something. Maybe I wasn't paying attention?
Fenderputty
Banned
None of this has anything to do with what you posted. Which was a rediculous comment about getting a job.
True Savior
Member
Vote NO for a future.
Fuck the Eurogroup. Fuck my country who , instead of fighting next to Greece knowing fully well how disastrous this austerity has been to ourselves prefers to stay under merkel skirts because of political allegiances instead of its commitement to the people , Fuck the International Monetary Fund and Fuck the inapt that is Claude Juncker.
I don't tell merkel to go fuck herself because i'm a gentleman. Fuck schäuble instead.
Krugman wrote a great article today. Probably postead already but i didnt saw the whole thread
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/29/opinion/paul-krugman-greece-over-the-brink.html
Fuck the Eurogroup. Fuck my country who , instead of fighting next to Greece knowing fully well how disastrous this austerity has been to ourselves prefers to stay under merkel skirts because of political allegiances instead of its commitement to the people , Fuck the International Monetary Fund and Fuck the inapt that is Claude Juncker.
I don't tell merkel to go fuck herself because i'm a gentleman. Fuck schäuble instead.
Krugman wrote a great article today. Probably postead already but i didnt saw the whole thread
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/29/opinion/paul-krugman-greece-over-the-brink.html
videogamer
Banned
And yet they are still better off than many people suffering more around the world.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/30/w...ttle-sympathy-from-poorer-neighbors.html?_r=0
Fenderputty
Banned
So what? Be happy with depression and shitty economic policy?
Ted Striker
Neo Member
Which country are you from? so i can find a picture of an idiot and make the same generalization about you and your countrymen.
It doesn't help when you see things like this:
When they could be looking for jobs instead.
See, the solution here isn't to free Greece from their huge, economy-crushing debt obligations! We just need to send those lazy Greeks a huge shipment of bootstraps, and the jobs will surely flow then.
Hint: 60% of youths in Greece aren't unemployed due to laziness.
Ted Striker
Neo Member
What's the cost of living in those countries relative to the wages and pensions?
videogamer
Banned
PdotMichael
Banned
The cost of living in Lithuania isn't 1/3 of the Greece one. The Baltic states are plain poor than Greece.
Fenderputty
Banned
The argument of "well other people have it worse" is so shitty I'm surprised anyone is even responding.
Coriolanus
Banned
Had to move to something else after the "lazy greek flagburner" bit failed.
Theonik
Member
Which is why the comparison makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
As someone who lived through the bad times in Ireland (still not fully gone but greatly relieved), I deeply sympathise with the Greek people. The effect of austerity is harsh enough, but it's only multiplied when it's applied upon multiple inefficient and corrupt governments who don't understand how to deal with it, and only exacerbate the problems. Whatever the choice is made on Sunday, I hope it's whatever is best for Greece, since whatever is best for Greece is best for Europe as a whole. While both sides can make their arguments, there's no way of knowing which vote will bring the best resolution. It's a fool's vote: both lead to an uncertain future. Hopefully, over the developments of the week, the best option becomes clear.
videogamer
Banned
I'm not trying to argue.
Theonik
Member
So you're just shitposting then.
PdotMichael
Banned
Well, it make sense because the Baltic states must greenlight any proposals as well.
Also poverty is relative. Dropping from a golden time with bloaded budgets to reality hurts more than staying on the same level.
Frankfurter
Member
So Tsipras will call for elections if yes wins? This leaves me even more puzzled. Basically the Eurozone now has two shitty options: Greece votes no, in which it'll most likely leave the Eurozone. Greeces votes yes, which means that it'll take 3 months (?) until a new government is elected, has the time to get into the whole numbers-negotiatins thing and maybe cooks out a deal.
What kind of perspective is that and how on earth does Tsipras believe Greece is still gonna have money through all that time if yes wins?
What kind of perspective is that and how on earth does Tsipras believe Greece is still gonna have money through all that time if yes wins?
Fenderputty
Banned
What are you doing then?
videogamer
Banned
Just stating my opinion, it is fine if you don't have a high opinion of them. I don't accuse other people of "shitposting".
Fenderputty
Banned
We're responding to your opinion. This is the flow of discourse. You've not responded well to our criticisms of your opinion.
EDIT: nevermind lol
It doesn't help when you see things like this:
When they could be looking for jobs instead.
That's the worst post in this thread. Congratulations.
Theonik
Member
No. Saying people in a country with a 60% youth unemployment should be looking for jobs isn't just an opinion. It is downright insulting to the idea of intelligent thought.
Edit: Well that's that.
This is true. But is a completely unproductive line of thinking for the Eurozone as a whole.
Greece 'going back to reality' would have been if they had told the Euro to fuck off and went back to their own currency in 2010. They did not however and now they are in a worse position than they have been even before.
Coriolanus
Banned
It isn't unprecedented. Syriza came to power after Pasok called for snap elections after securing a short-term bailout package.
Of course, back then pasok was trying to consolidate its power base and ended up getting rekt, but them's the breaks. Probably part of the reason why they stole everything that wasn't nailed down on the way out.
BronzeWolf
Banned
It seems to me that Greece's governments have been consistently shitty throughout all this ordeal./
Ted Striker
Neo Member
Quite frankly i don't think there ever was a greek government that wasn't shitty the last 30 years.
diffusionx
Gold Member
But wasn't Syriza put into power explicitly to oppose austerity? Syriza's mandate was to do exactly what it has been doing.
PdotMichael
Banned
There were no easy solution because the mind set is still that Greece's baseline is the boom time of the early 2000's.
ClosingADoor
Member
True, and they should resign if the people vote to accept a deal with the Eurogroup. But this should all have been done weeks and weeks ago, instead of surprising everyone at the last minute when the money has already run out.
Those times are not coming back anytime soon. No matter what happens, Greece will stay a poor country for the foreseeable future.
A new election is a terrible waste of time and money right now, but I guess that's something we shouldn't be concerned.
uuaschbaer
Banned
Very much not an expert, but having read in this thread that defaults are not uncommon (for Greece and other countries as well), and that they are not the end of the world, it seems to me a bad idea to do what the EU* wants (privatization under these conditions, refraining from trade with Russia), or to hand them so much power (the ability to black mail which strengthens as the situation worsens for Greece).
So I would vote "No."
*European commission, Eurogroup, whatever.
So I would vote "No."
*European commission, Eurogroup, whatever.
That's kinda the point. A 'Yes' vote is a vote against Syriza's mandate that won them the election. Tsipras has already stated that his government won't support austerity measures, so even if he'd promise to implement them, he should not be trusted with it. Nobody can implement difficult measures if he is not completely supportive of them.
Additionally, the incompetent and/or shady behavior of his government during the negotiations over the last months has destroyed all mutual trust between Greece and the rest of the Eurozone. They just can't cooperate efficiently anymore.
I guess that he is saying this upfront to generate some pressure. The voters know that there are not many Alternatives to Syriza if you don't want to reelect one of the two other major parties that got Greece into this mess in the first place.
Coriolanus
Banned
Pish posh, there's Golden Dawn aaand the communists! Ample choice!
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
I mean, it wasn't necessarily insane at foundation. The hope was that countries would adapt to the Euro and create closer markets on account of it existing. Unfortunately, a few key countries (particularly but not exclusively Germany) have basically frozen development of the Eurozone since that date. I do not think history will remember Merkel kindly.
An attitude like that only harms the country.
If Greeks think their government is corrupt, they need to act and replace the corrupt members.
If Greeks think their laws need to be changed, then they need to act and change the laws.
Simply refusing to pay taxes helps no one. And it's not a very liberal stance. What you're describing sounds like ultra right wing sovereign citizen nonsense.
If a country can't print its own money, there is a very real possibility that the money can run out. Banks only work if people keep deposits in them. If there is a run on the banks, the banks fail.
It all comes back to having a single currency for multiple countries. If a country can't manipulate its own currency, then it is at the mercy of whatever the market says the value of the currency is at.
A very strong argument indeed. You invalidated all my arguments. Give this man the Bundesverdienstkreuz.
You'd never dare ask yourself, what was first: Corruption or the black market? If your people go lengths not to pay taxes, with methods that would be so fucking easy to uncover, you as a government have a fucking problem and you should solve it. And again, because of the corruption, nobody fucking cared.
Governing a state is to a certain degree mass psychology. If your base has serious trust issues, you have to combat them.
By the way, seeing as you speak in absolutes, so there's no excuse for not paying taxes? Let's assume your tax money would be used to kill, say, palestinians, would you be thrilled to pay taxes? I wouldn't.
But of course, the miracle answer from Germans for this crisis is "the greeks are lazy and sleazy and have my money and I hate everything"
No one is ever "thrilled to pay taxes." And most people have some portion of their taxes paying for things they don't personally agree with.
When you are a citizen of a country though, you don't get the option of picking and choosing where your individual tax dollars go. That's why you elect leaders. If your elected leaders don't do what you want, you either vote them out or you realize that, hey, you're in the minority and have been out voted.
That's democracy.
The EU was never going to see that sort of redistribution so long as each country remains sovereign and refuses to give up control to a central government.
The only reason it works in the US is because the individual states aren't sovereign countries. If the US was like the EU, there is no way CA would be subsidizing other states.
At its core, the EU States are all about themselves first because they are all individual units.
These two have it right. If the EU were a single country, with a single central government, it would be amazingly powerful both politically and economically. But that requires the painful choice of giving up control to a central government which most EU citizens would never allow.
Drug costs would have gone down. Tourism exceptions to the VAT would have been eliminated (mostly due to the fraud they allowed), but they would have been standardized with other EU nations.
Not sure how that is excessive. It sounds more like bringing things into alignment with the rest of the EU.
Or, Greece could have put forth a usable proposal itself. Instead it didn't put offers on the table when it was supposed to, choosing to miss deadlines and delay the whole processes.
If you don't like the terms offered, you put forth your own. That is how an honest negotiation works. You don't just sit there and ignore the other side until the last minute.
Not in the least. Turkey is a member of NATO and wants to join the EU. Yes, Turkey is going to protest Greece's attempts to increase its maritime borders unilaterally, but it's not about to attack an EU stats and NATO member. To do so would mean no possibility of EU membership and a good chance of getting kicked out of NATO, not to mention fighting NATO forces.
From Turkey's perspective, Greece's actions are more like China's in the South China Sea.
Emotions are not a good way to run a country. Especially such a small country like Greece.
From a purely numbers perspective, Greece could never hope to compete with another country's armed forces. The entire population of Greece is less than that of Chicago and New York City combined.
The government needs to tackle problems rationally and look for practical solutions (such as defense treaties) rather than just throwing more money at the military when it doesn't have the economy (or the population) to support it.
Of course, the whole invasion of Cyprus didn't happen until AFTER the Greek government sponsored a military coup on Cyprus and attempted to kill the leader.
It's not like Greece is totally innocent there.
If the EU wants to survive in the long term it will either have to move to a Canada/UK/US/former USSR style government, where the individual States cede power to a central government and the EU becomes one unified country with states instead of States.
That is something that most Europeans probably aren't willing to give up though, as it means putting the interest of the greater group ahead of individual self interest.
This is a failure of both the government and the citizenry. If the citizens of a country allow such corruption (and exploit it) they are complicit in it.
And again, Greece is a SMALL country. Small enough where direct democracy is viable.
If the government sucks, vote in one that doesn't suck.
Which boils down to Greece wanting to extend territorial boundaries from the existing 6 miles (which were recognized by both countries) to 10 or 12 miles (which would put most of the Aegean Sea under Greek sovereignty rather than international waters).
Turkey doesn't have a history of encroaching on the Greek 6 mile limit. It does refuse to accept the expansion of Greek territory though.
It's another Greek delay tactic.
Because once the deadline expires, the Troika has no mandate to spend the funds. The Troika would have to go back to the individual countries for a vote for authorization to proceed. And it is quite possible that the governments of those countries would vote differently than they did in the past if they didn't see Greece as a willing partner due to the actions of Syriza in running the government.
You can't demand that the Greek people get a vote (after the mandate period has expired) and then deny that same right to other countries.
During the specified times, the Troika had legal permission to make a deal. It didn't have to go back to anyone for permission. The same was true of Syriza, since they ARE the current Greek government.
The Troika wanted to get a deal done within the timeframe because that's what it had authorization to do. That is rational.
Greece decided to delay until after the authorization had expired. Now everyone has to get permission to move forward and there is no way of telling how the individual actors will play out.
If the Troika didn't want a referendum, then why did it suggest on a month ago?
Your arguments aren't making any sense. You are literally saying "THEY DIDN'T WANT THIS THING SO THEY SUGGESTED THAT GREEK DO THIS THING!"
If anyone is being two-faced here it is you.
Greece said it wasn't going to hold a referendum. There was a negotiation deadline, so of course parties kept negotiating up until the last minute. That's standard in negotiation as you're always trying to get the best deal.
If Greece had wanted a referendum, it should have said so last month and planned for the time to hold it. Instead, this seems like something that the Greek government decided to pull out at the last second because Syriza's members were too cowardly to make the hard decisions that they were elected to make.
In short, they're not doing their job.
That's standard in a negotiation. You keep going up until the deadline in an attempt to get the best deal. If Greece wanted to have a referendum, it should have said that last month when the idea was mentioned by Germany so that there would have been time for it to happen. Instead, Syriza shot that idea down (likely because it didn't want to risk being seen as being overruled by the Greek populace and thinking it could do better). When Syriza's delaying tactics didn't work, the Greek leaders punted the ball rather than do their jobs so that they could blame whatever happens on "someone else."
If the EU was a USoE it would be an instant superpower. When the EU was originally announced, a lot of people in the US thought that what you describe would eventually happen and that the single currency was just the first step.
Instead, that ended up being pretty much the only step. Europe, united as a single country, would rival both the US and China and would have nothing to fear from Russia.
Seriously, it's like Europe as a whole is afraid of becoming a superpower in the world.
Of course, since the mandate period is over, the Troika can't accept without getting permission from the other governments.
Unless you think that democracy is just for Greece and the citizens of other countries shouldn't have the right to vote.
The rest of the EU can't just "kick them out." Greece can choose to leave.
If it doesn't get the loans though and it doesn't leave, Greece will effectively run out of money as citizens pull cash out of banks and move it out of the country.
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