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[oti]

CSU being CSU

 

[ElTorro]

It's not just about the Greek people. Taxpayers of the other countries are the ones paying that money if it doesn't get paid back.

Yeah, I don't understand why so many people assume that the popular vote in Greece will have much influence on the other states. They don't answer to the people of Greece, they answer to their own people. And many of these people still believe that they should get their billions back. The tabloids in those countries would have a field day with a full scale debt relief, even though Greece just cannot pay the debts back.

 

[PdotMichael]

The unwillingness to give somebody money on their terms instead of your own is now an active act of pushing somebody out? If Europe wanted to push Greece out, they could have done that much earlier before they gave Greece hundreds of billions of Euros, the equivalent of many, many Marshall plans.

It's fair to say that Europe's plans over the last five years haven't worked out, at least not in Greece, but demonizing the other members of the Eurozone as being unwilling to help is unwarranted.

The narration about the importance of Greece as part of the EU zone changed alot in the past months and the last week.

I wouldn't be surprised that everything will end in a debt cut and a new currency and then call it a day.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

I get a bit of his criticism.
If we don't consider the part were the topic of the referendum is a joke itself, if you're going to put up a referendum where the people have to decide, there should be no influence from the government.

You mean like all these refererendums in Europe where people were choosing to accept the Euro or not, and the local goverments were actively pushing for a "Yes".

Ah! I get it!, Double standards, don't worry is common practice in the core of the EU these days.

 

[Condom]

In particular because the bailouts are very unpopular in the participating Euro countries. Troika, too, has a mandate.

Europe is very unpopular too. There is a mandate against the troika itself.

 

[KHlover]

Good luck to Greece I guess. Back to negotiations, but now with no money in the bank.


I don't see that as very obvious. The Greeks might be for that, but the other Euro countries need to explain that somehow to their populations. Won't be easy.


It's not just about the Greek people. Taxpayers of the other countries are the ones paying that money if it doesn't get paid back.

I know, don't think there's a day where this is not discussed here in Germany

 

[Stinkles]

CSU being CSU

Translation? Something something tsipiras' dirt.

 

[Ether_Snake]

https://twitter.com/henrikenderlein/status/617760238008180736


https://twitter.com/noahbarkin/status/617757793337143296


https://twitter.com/matinastevis/status/617761774230745089

Funny; before a No vote meant "Grexit", now it means "They want to negotiate more than ever, but we won't".

 

[ElTorro]

As long as it is clear that said hundreds of billions were not poured into the greek economy or used to help those who were suffering. They were used to pay out external loans and effectively bail out banks and other private creditors. It is a big help, no doubt, but let's not present it as if all that money was given directly to Greece.

Paying back credits to private creditors like banks is a necessity if you want Greece to be able again to get money from the international markets. Their disability to do so is what ignited this crisis in the first place. Greece could have defaulted on these bank loans at any point in time, but that would have destroyed their ability to lend money for a long, long time.

I agree with you that the banks had the responsibility to eat up their own losses. They decided on their own to lend Greece money anyway. But that doesn't mean that this would have been a good thing for Greece.

 

[Xando]

I wonder how Tsipras will legitimate negotiating with EZ countries after calling them liars, blackmailers and terrorists last week.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Of course they most likely won't agree to it, but the thing is I doubt the Troika's offer would be much different either way, they know the most meaningful move they can make it debt cut. So it's that or Drachma really. The Euro would probably not rise if Greece drops the Euro, because it would not increase confidence in the currency since it would set quite a precedent, so I think it's the most likely outcome for the near term. Germany should be happy with that in the end since the currency would stay low, or lower.

Debt cut would help and I am actually for doing that partially. Or maybe push back interest payment like 10 years so Greece doesn't need to sink money in that while its economy is so bad.

If the popular vote in Greece is for dropping the Euro, I feel they should work for a plan to do that. Big problem then is that the debt is still in Euro, so relative to the new currency they would get it would get even bigger.

 

[-duskdoll-]

here's how

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-bUDtTT__U

lol perfect

 

[Ether_Snake]

Debt cut would help and I am actually for doing that partially. Or maybe push back interest payment like 10 years so Greece doesn't need to sink money in that while its economy is so bad.

If the popular vote in Greece is for dropping the Euro, I feel they should work for a plan to do that. Big problem then is that the debt is still in Euro, so relative to the new currency they would get it would get even bigger.

Well obviously they would also default if they go with the Drachma.

 

[erale]

As long as it is clear that said hundreds of billions were not poured into the greek economy or used to help those who were suffering. They were used to pay out external loans and effectively bail out banks and other private creditors. It is a big help, no doubt, but let's not present it as if all that money was given directly to Greece.

Sure some of that money had to be used to pay the DEPTS. Seriously, nobody is denying that. And that's common sense that someone (a person or country) that get's a loan has to pay it back (including interest). That's not something the other evil euro-countries invented just for Greece.

But what's with that for example:

It is easy to see how these assertions miss the point just
by considering the relationship between Greek public
and private consumption on the one hand, and net na-
tional income on the other, as shown in Figure 5.
While the ratio in countries like Germany, France or
the Netherlands, to take just three examples, hovered
around 90%, in Greece it climbed from around 95% in
the years following adoption of the euro to more than
110%, where it has stayed until now. In 2014, aggre-
gate consumption reached 113.7% of net national in-
come, by far the highest value of all euro countries. In
view of the fact that an economy normally cannot
consume more than its net national income without
running its reserves to the ground,
this remarkable development can
hardly be reconciled with the “hu-
manitarian catastrophe” thesis.

I guess that's also the fault of the EU right?

 

[Man God]

Probably because a Eurozone country can't been seen to fail.



Didn't they just vote not to have this done to them?

They're going to do it to themselves by defaulting. It was coming either way, they feel at least this way they have some agency in the whole matter.

 

[Condom]

I wonder how Tsipras will legitimate negotiating with EZ countries after calling them liars, blackmailers and terrorists last week.

?

This is politics. Calling others liars and having a deal the next day with the same liars is normal.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Well obviously they would also default if they go with the Drachma.

And where do you get your money then? Euro countries will certainly not lend it and private investors will charge enormous interest rates if they are willing at all.

Default could work, but it won't be any prettier then what is going on right now. I guess Greece has more of a say in their own country then again, but the next 10 years or so are going to suck whatever happens.

 

[Rourkey]

So if Greece defaults are the tax payers in other countries who will lose their money be happy with EU funds being spent in Greece? Will Germans be happy holidaying there? Such a mess!

 

[LJ11]

It was not, and it was a big giant mistake. Those banks should have taken the loss or worked out some other solution. But that doesn't change where the money came from and who is paying for it.

Unfortunately, that probably would have made things much worse for the whole of Europe.

 

[Buzzati]

The "No" decision always frames the aftermath in a painful short-term.

There's a widespread view among analysts that the eurozone would not collapse in the short term if Greece left. There would be turmoil. Stocks would fall. Borrowing costs for the weaker eurozone members, such as Portugal or Italy, might rise for a while.

What if Greece votes no? This will lead to scary, unknown terrain. Greece might well leave the euro, which would be hugely disruptive in the short run. But it will also offer Greece itself a chance for real recovery. And it will serve as a salutary shock to the complacency of Europe’s elites.

Specifically how short-term are we talking?

 

[Purkake4]

Yeah, I don't understand why so many people assume that the popular vote in Greece will have much influence on the other states. They don't answer to the people of Greece, they answer to their own people. And many of these people still believe that they should get their billions back. The tabloids in those countries would have a field day with a full scale debt relief, even though Greece just cannot pay the debts back.

Finland's going to be mad.

 

[wsippel]

The narration about the importance of Greece as part of the EU zone changed alot in the past months and the last week.

I wouldn't be surprised that everything will end in a debt cut and a new currency and then call it a day.

I guess that's a possibility. EMU might offer a (partial) cut if Greece agrees to leave the EU. I don't think just leaving the Euro would be enough at this point. And that would probably be for the best, all things considered.

 

[Lucumo]

Well, hopefully they finally kick Greece out after they manipulated numbers to get in in the first place.

 

[oti]

Translation? Something something tsipiras' dirt.

Good night, Greece. Dark times ahead of you.
Tsipras and the left government lied to the people, he said they'd get money without change. We have to act calmly.

The left blackmailers and liars like Tsipras can't get away with this.

 

[Xando]

?

This is politics. Calling others liars and having a deal the next day with the same liars is normal.

Don't know how it is in other countries but i've never heard any politician calling their allies terrorists.

 

[Tugatrix]

Good night, Greece. Dark times ahead of you.
Tsipras and the left government lied to the people, he said they'd get money without change. We have to act calmly.

The left blackmailers and liars like Tsipras can't get away with this.

Disgusting

 

[Succinct Verbosity]

I fear for how Britain views this more than what Greece does. With a referendum in two years, Britain pulling out would be a far bigger blow to the global economy than this.

 

[wsippel]

?

This is politics. Calling others liars and having a deal the next day with the same liars is normal.

Usually. But nobody wants to deal with Tsipras anymore not just because of his rhetoric, but also because nobody trusts him and his government anymore. Negotiations are considered a waste of time. Doesn't get much worse than that.

 

[alexandros]

Paying back credits to private creditors like banks is a necessity if you want Greece to be able again to get money from the international markets. Their disability to do so is what ignited this crisis in the first place. Greece could have defaulted on these bank loans at any point in time, but that would have destroyed their ability to lend money for a long, long time.

Agreed. It doesn't change the fact that zero money made it to the hands of those Greeks who really needed it.

 

[PodcastFips]

Translation? Something something tsipiras' dirt.

Good night, Greece. You will be having a hard time now.

"Tsipras and his government lied to their nation and tricked them into thinking Greece would receive more money without new reforms by voting 'no'. We need to react calmly now."

 

[Coriolanus]

Specifically how short-term are we talking?

Comparing to other recent cases of default, 1-2 years.

Usually. But nobody wants to deal with Tsipras anymore not just because of his rhetoric, but also because nobody trusts him and his government anymore. Negotiations are considered a waste of time. Doesn't get much worse than that.

Whaddaya mean "anymore"? They never did.

 

[Savitar]

So what does Greece do if they get no deal now.

I mean, what can they do?

And what happens when those who thought they would get a deal suddenly realize the train is dead.

 

[KHlover]

Translation? Something something tsipiras' dirt.

"Good night Greece, you're walking down a difficult road now. Tsipras and his leftist government lied to their people, feigning there'd be Euros without reforms. We have to react calmly now."

Picture: The leftist extortionists and weasels betraying their country like Tsipras mustn't get away with their dirty methods/act.

Not the best translation, but it should do the job. Some pretty hard to translate idioms in there.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

Well, hopefully they finally kick Greece out after they manipulated numbers to get in in the first place.

You will be a fool, if you truly believe EU didn't really know about these numbers, but a new EU member is good for a good number of reasons and they allow it anyway. Of course the great financial crisis fucked up EU plans.

 

[His Majesty]

Don't know how it is in other countries but i've never heard any politician calling their allies terrorists.

Heavy rhetoric like that is part of politics imo but it's a very cheap way of campaigning. Here parties sometimes even bring up comparisons to the former nazi regime to make their 'point', pretty disgusting.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

Good night, Greece. Dark times ahead of you.
Tsipras and the left government lied to the people, he said they'd get money without change. We have to act calmly.

The left blackmailers and liars like Tsipras can't get away with this.

Is that the extreme right wing German party?

 

[Stinkles]

"Good night Greece, you're walking down a difficult road now. Tsipras and his leftist government lied to their people, feigning there'd be Euros without reforms. We have to react calmly now."

Picture: The leftist extortionists and weasels betraying their country like Tsipras mustn't get away with their dirty methods.

Not the best translation, but it should do the job. Some pretty hard to translate idioms in there.

Thanks fellas.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Heavy rhetoric like that is part of politics imo but it's a very cheap way of campaigning. Here parties sometimes even bring up comparisons to the former nazi regime to make their 'point', pretty disgusting.

It's also a big difference to do that for internal politics and international. Certainly doesn't help getting support from other Euro countries.

 

[Lovely Salsa]

whats happening now to greek people? Unemployed to keep going up and wages down?

 

[Pennywise]

Is that the extreme right wing German party?

Not right wing, but certainly a really conservative party.
Bavarians.
Don't be suprised...

 

[Xando]

Is that the extreme right wing German party?

Kinda, it's like the german tea party. They only really are popular in bavaria.

 

[chadskin]

mathieuvonrohr: Conservative German MEP Manfred Weber: Varoufakis called creditors terrorists, irritated to hear he wants to start negotiation tomorrow

https://twitter.com/mathieuvonrohr/status/617762505654452224

Reuters: BREAKING: Senior German conservative Fuchs says he sees no chance that a solution on Greece can be agreed in the next 48 hours.

https://twitter.com/reuters/status/617765132928712704

Pretty clear message from German conservatives so far.

 

[Osiris]

LMAO, I can just imagine the uproar if this prediction for increased cuts being needed due to delay from the referendum messing things up comes true, via The Guardian:

Once Athens and its lenders resume talks, Tsipras is likely to point to the IMF’s recent debt sustainability analysis (which has effectively once more made the case for debt relief) and tonight’s “No” vote. But calls to respect the democratic will of the Greek people and offer a better deal will likely be answered by reference to the – in substance very different – democratic will in creditor countries.

Instead, the lenders will likely argue that given the by now worsened economic situation, further efforts will be required to get the country back on track. This may translate into further cuts and/or additional revenue-raising measures to meet primary surplus targets.

 

[Negotiator]

I invite you to look at where nearly all of that money was actually going.

Basically this:

I don't see that as very obvious. The Greeks might be for that, but the other Euro countries need to explain that somehow to their populations. Won't be easy.

It's not just about the Greek people. Taxpayers of the other countries are the ones paying that money if it doesn't get paid back.

EU taxpayers saved the German/French banks, not the Greek people. It's not easy, but they have to understand that.

Personally, I think it's silly to turn Germans against Greeks* and vice versa, when the banksters are laughing all the way to the bank!

* I'm talking about propaganda like this one:

http://s12.postimg.org/torsxvrq5/greeks_lazy_big2.png
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-2YbG0O6PJEk/UYLFGrfhb9I/AAAAAAAAAZs/lWLrW4F_FN4/s1600/lazy+Greeks.jpg

 

[Rektash]

Kinda, it's like the german tea party. They only really are popular in bavaria.

This is the first time I heared someone comparing the CSU to the tea party. It is also completly wrong and laughable.

 

[erale]

So apparently the euro finance minister won't meet tomorrow. Nothing to discuss after todays NO

 

[oti]

Is that the extreme right wing German party?

They're kinda like the German Tea Party and the sister Party of Merkel's CDU. They're clowns but they're from Bavaria and Bavaria means money and a lot of elderly voters so we have to listen to them. They tried to introduce an Autobahn toll on tourists but the EU told them to fuck right off.

 

[Courage]

https://twitter.com/mathieuvonrohr/status/617762505654452224

https://twitter.com/reuters/status/617765132928712704

Pretty clear message from German conservatives so far.

Fuck, this is depressing for the Greek people. It can be another week with banks closed.

 

[East Lake]

Usually. But nobody wants to deal with Tsipras anymore not just because of his rhetoric, but also because nobody trusts him and his government anymore. Negotiations are considered a waste of time. Doesn't get much worse than that.

I don't think there were any real negotiations. Not because of Tsipras' barbs but because there was a one way deal of economy destroying austerity.

 

[benjipwns]

Is that the extreme right wing German party?

No, it's the Bavarian branch of the Christian Democratic Union, which Angela Merkel heads.

This is the David Duke friendly German party: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Democratic_Party_of_Germany