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[EatinOlives]

Seeing people not defend this after they lost their fucking minds when Xbox One was going to disallow "grey market" used games make my head hurt.

Suddenly reselling a CD key is taboo, but reselling a physical game is not. Suddenly having the publisher's permission to sell a CD Key is mandatory, but reselling a physical game does not.

You're building a strawman argument. Nobody is saying that reselling a CK Key is taboo. Nobody is saying having the publisher's permission to sell a CD Key is mandatory.

The point of contention is GMG's marketing and what they do with it. Despite them giving good deals on pre-orders, several key reseller sites that aren't shy about their gray market status sell them for lower. GMG established a reputation of selling keys directly from the publisher and market themselves that way as well. The general rule that people know about is that is GMG simply chose to give up the vast majority of their cut in order to drum up sales. At no point had "oh yeah and these keys may not be from the publisher" ever entered that conversation. Brick-and-mortar stores aren't being sneaky about where they get their products from when they sell you their stuff (GameStop is shit for selling clearly used games as new, though, and they catch plenty of flak for it).

That people are tripping over each other to "conveniently" ignore this, or arbitrarily call this a non-issue, is baffling.

 

[Vamphuntr]

You're ignoring literally everything going on here though. We can demonstrably show through multiple examples that GMG are being dishonest to consumers about the nature of some of their keys, and contradicting their site's core values.

Also, the reddit mods aren't asking for entire contracts, they said that you can redact like 80% of the document removing all information but the fact that a deal exists and that would be fine. The bar for verification is set really low. And GMG reps have been contacted over and over regarding this issue, yet they've refused to respond, despite commenting passive aggressively on the status saying they'll keep advertising to the sub through reddit's advertising system. They're not answering the questions directed towards them.



The simplest solution would be to add a note to the page of certain items they sell saying "this key has not been directly obtained from the publisher" or change their "about" page and this would all be over.

I get the issue about them still having the logos for Activision on their page and they should take it down but the rest of the "evidence" presented is laughable. In our judicial system you have to prove someone is guilty with evidence and not the opposite. Some customers service rep contacted by email is not evidence of anything. I don't have business knowledge or anything but something tells me posting contracts online, even redacted is not a good idea especially not to people on reddit.

In the case of Blops 3 and Witcher 3 they still sold legit keys from boxed copies. The only problem is that they didn't put on their page that it was not from an official deal. That's the issue right? That's kind of false advertising in these two cases but as long as the keys are official and not bought with stolen cards or whatnot I don't see an issue with it. If you want to lump them with Kingpin and everyone be my guest though.

 

[nynt9]

I get the issue about them still having the logos for Activision on their page and they should take it down but the rest of the "evidence" presented is laughable. In our judicial system you have to prove someone is guilty with evidence and not the opposite. Some customers service rep contacted by email is not evidence of anything. I don't have business knowledge or anything but something tells me posting contracts online, even redacted is not a good idea especially not to people on reddit.

In the case of Blops 3 and Witcher 3 they still sold legit keys from boxed copies. The only problem is that they didn't put on their page that it was not from an official deal. That's the issue right? That's kind of false advertising in these two cases but as long as the keys are official and not bought with stolen cards or whatnot I don't see an issue with it. If you want to lump them with Kingpin and everyone be my guest though.

They never clarified where they got their W3 or BLOPS3 keys to my knowledge.

Within the same post you say they committed false advertising, then say "but it's ok", but you also say you need evidence to make a claim when you yourself accept the claim that they did false advertising.

 

[John Wick]

To some, buying keys that might have been obtained with stolen credit cards or keys that exploit regional pricing and as a result hurt people in disadvantaged regions is morally wrong. I guess for some people it's more important to save $20 though.

Then maybe some of these people will also stop supporting/buying/working for companies that exploit 3Rd world labour markets(especially children). Avoid paying the proper taxes they should be paying instead of finding loopholes and tax haven gray areas???
Then maybe you'll sleep better at night

 

[Rudiano]

All hail cdkeys

 

[nynt9]

Then maybe some of these people will also stop supporting/buying/working for companies that exploit 3Rd world labour markets(especially children). Avoid paying the proper taxes they should be paying instead of finding loopholes and tax haven gray areas???
Then maybe you'll sleep better at night

Ah, the old "you can't care about this issue before you care about this bigger issue first"

 

[Mad Season]

Yeah, that's enough to at least raise questions and GMG should make a statement.



That's on the mods, I can't do that.

Pm a mod

 

[ZOONAMI]

Then maybe some of these people will also stop supporting/buying/working for companies that exploit 3Rd world labour markets(especially children). Avoid paying the proper taxes they should be paying instead of finding loopholes and tax haven gray areas???
Then maybe you'll sleep better at night

While these are important issues, bringing them up is a diversion and has no bearing on the issue at hand (straw man). Make a thread about Foxconn if that's what you want to talk about.

I will say you all will be sorry once the publishers start putting region locks on pc games.

 

[TheVoidDragon]

Ubisoft's own authorised retailer page.

Is that a complete list, though? Maybe they're under a different name but i can't see the UK retailer GAME on there for example, even though they sell Uplay keys.

 

[GatticusFinch]

Is that a complete list, though? Maybe they're under a different name but i can't see the UK retailer GAME on there for example, even though they sell Uplay keys.

It is not a complete list. GetGames confirmed they too are not on the Ubi list but are "authorized," basically coming to GMG's defense in the Reddit thread.

 

[YianGaruga]

I will say you all will be sorry once the publishers start putting region locks on pc games.

Why would that matter to you if you only buy from authorized retailers?

Also these region locks already exist.

 

[diamount]

Is that a complete list, though? Maybe they're under a different name but i can't see the UK retailer GAME on there for example, even though they sell Uplay keys.

They are one of the biggest cd-key distributors outside of Steam, if they are not on that list then they aren't authorised.

 

[John Wick]

Ah, the old "you can't care about this issue before you care about this bigger issue first"

There is no issue to care about for me. I live in the UK. We always pay more than the rest of the world. I buy many designer clothes from other EU countries to save myself a fortune. It's legal. So unless you can prove it's illegal for GMG or Cdkeys to sell keys for games from other countries or regions then there is nothing to worry about

 

[xAlias]

Why would that matter to you if you only buy from authorized retailers?

Also these region locks already exist.

Region locks exist but not for all regions and not for all games/publishers.

 

[GatticusFinch]

I will say you all will be sorry once the publishers start putting region locks on pc games.

And how does this witch hunt against GMG prevent that, exactly?

 

[nynt9]

There is no issue to care about for me. I live in the UK. We always pay more than the rest of the world. I buy many designer clothes from other EU countries to save myself a fortune. It's legal. So unless you can prove it's illegal for GMG or Cdkeys to sell keys for games from other countries or regions then there is nothing to worry about

You seem to be ignoring the pages of conversation we had in this thread where the problem isn't that they sell unauthorized keys, it's that they do so under the guise of an authorized vendor which is false advertising.

 

[YianGaruga]

Region locks exist but not for all regions and not for all games/publishers.

Every pub can set whatever lock the want for any region manually for Steam keys.

If they REALLY cared none of this would be possible.

 

[ZOONAMI]

Why would that matter to you if you only buy from authorized retailers?

Also these region locks already exist.

Maybe people like to play games from other regions not released in their region? Hint: they do.

I'm not really aware of pc region locks, please elaborate. Either way, it seems likely we will see more and more region locking and stricter drm if keys from other regions continue to be sold for significant margins on gray market sites.

i.e. Steam codes will be assigned to specific regions and will only work if you have an active Internet connection with an IP in that region. So maybe you like to travel and play games on a laptop? Say good bye to that.

 

[LurkerPrime]

I cut all ties with GMG after their Witcher 3 stunt, so it's very disappointing to hear that they're expanding the scummy practices. Not even the Greenman Grogre can win me back at this point.

 

[TheVoidDragon]

They are one of the biggest cd-key distributors outside of Steam, if they are not on that list then they aren't authorised.

GAME is one of the UK's biggest high street game retailers, they aren't on it either. The point is the list isn't complete, there are authorized retailers who aren't there even though they should be.

 

[GatticusFinch]

I cut all ties with GMG after their Witcher 3 stunt, so it's very disappointing to hear that they're expanding the scummy practices. Not even the Greenman Grogre can win me back at this point.

That's interesting. I cut all ties with CDPR after their Witcher 3 stunt with GMG.

 

[YianGaruga]

Maybe people like to play games from other regions not released in their region? Hint: they do.

I'm not really aware of pc region locks, please elaborate. Either way, it seems likely we will see more and more region locking and stricter drm if keys from other regions continue to be sold for significant margins on gray market sites.

i.e. Steam codes will be assigned to specific regions and will only work if you have an active Internet connection with an IP in that region. So maybe you like to travel and play games on a laptop? Say good bye to that.

IP locks can already be set for any game on Steam by the publisher. The grey market has existed for a long time, yet only very few games have that kind of region lock.

 

[John Wick]

You seem to be ignoring the pages of conversation we had in this thread where the problem isn't that they sell unauthorized keys, it's that they do so under the guise of an authorized vendor which is false advertising.

I'm not defending them for doing that. If they are saying they are an official seller but aren't then that's breaking the law. I'm just defending that people have the right to buy these game keys and it isn't illegal like some seem to think

 

[xAlias]

Every pub can set whatever lock the want for any region manually for Steam keys.

If they REALLY cared none of this would be possible.

I understand that. Just mentioning that region locks are not being enforced by all publishers right now.

Yes, they have the means to do it and possible with the grey market sales getting out of hand, region locks at every level is going to be a reality.

A quick example is the mexico Origin store for EA games which can be got cheaper and can be locked by EA if needed.
Or the Nuuvem keys which for some games still are ROW but now prevented from buying at Nuuvem by their payment region check on checkout.
These can be fully locked down in future such that they are specifically for those regions.

 

[xAlias]

i.e. Steam codes will be assigned to specific regions and will only work if you have an active Internet connection with an IP in that region. So maybe you like to travel and play games on a laptop? Say good bye to that.

This is what I am afraid of. I dont want my games collection to be region locked to a specific country that I cannot play when travelling or such.
Hopefully that is not the future we are facing. :|

 

[ZOONAMI]

And how does this witch hunt against GMG prevent that, exactly?

Every pub can set whatever lock the want for any region manually for Steam keys.

If they REALLY cared none of this would be possible.

And if these gray market sites proliferate and get bigger and the publishers start noticing it's hurting their margins you don't think they would ever consider doing anything about it?

The idea is that we as consumers shouldn't support shady business practices so that the publishers don't have to resort to drm to protect their interests.

You saying they don't care right now doesn't mean a whole lot. They might start to care.

 

[diamount]

GAME is one of the UK's biggest high street game retailers, they aren't on it either. The point is the list isn't complete, there are authorized retailers who aren't there even though they should be.

That is a list for digital partners, when have GAME ever been known for that? It's easy to see GetGames as an official partner if they price their games at RRP then it's their onus to contact Ubisoft to amend it, GMG have heavily discounted pre-orders far outside the stores on that list.

 

[YianGaruga]

And if these gray market sites proliferate and get bigger and the publishers start noticing it's hurting their margins you don't think they would ever consider doing anything about it?

The idea is that we as consumers shouldn't support shady business practices so that the publishers don't have to resort to drm to protect their interests.

I don't see it as shady. I am legally allowed to import a game from any country in the world (and I do), yet when I do it through a middleman it's shady?

If they want to lock it down they can, but they'll lose customers and its not easy to say if it would be a net positive for them. A certain level of price discrimination doesn't seem problematic for a market that's entirely immaterial goods of no actual value.

 

[Enter the Dragon Punch]

I am curious to see who does not support middleman resellers, but is perfectly fine exploiting prices from different countries via sites like Nuuvem, even using a VPN to purchase and activate the key.

I know in the Steam thread it's a big thing to purchase from sites like Nuuvem conscience-free.

 

[ZOONAMI]

I don't see it as shady. I am legally allowed to import a game from any country in the world (and I do), yet when I do it through a middleman it's shady?

There's a difference between importing a game because it is literally not available in your region, and intentionally ordering a game from a website where you literally have no idea how the codes have been obtained to save yourself money, when the game is available in your region from official retailers.

When people order from these sites and run into problems, as we are seeing, it hurts the publisher. It creates negative publicity for them and puts their attention on these sites selling a $60 game for $40. If you don't think publishers aren't already thinking to themselves, "Maybe we should just lock this down to steam and our own site by region so we can make sure we are hitting max margins in NA and EU,“ you're fooling yourself. It creates incentive for them to implement harsher drm.

 

[John Wick]

While these are important issues, bringing them up is a diversion and has no bearing on the issue at hand (straw man). Make a thread about Foxconn if that's what you want to talk about.

I will say you all will be sorry once the publishers start putting region locks on pc games.

These issues are related. Some act all high and mighty when it comes to buying keys for games from sellers that aren't official partners of that particular publisher. But are happy as Larry when it comes to their favourite corporation being involved in shady dealings and practices. Is it illegal to buy keys from other regions on PC? Surely someone must have proof?

 

[John Wick]

There's a difference between importing a game because it is literally not available in your region, and intentionally ordering a game from a website where you literally have no idea how the codes have been obtained to save yourself money, when the game is available in your region from official retailers.

When people order from these sites and run into problems, as we are seeing, it hurts the publisher. It creates incentive for them to implement harsher drm.

I buy designer clothes like D&G,Versace and Armani from other EU countries even though they are sold in the UK officially. I save a fortune doing this. It isn't illegal as I can buy from anywhere in Europe. I've never ran into a problem buying from GMG or Cdkeys

 

[GatticusFinch]

When people order from these sites and run into problems, as we are seeing, it hurts the publisher.

How does it hurt the publisher? The keys were sold legitimately by the publisher at some point. Frankly, the publisher should be happy I am buying these keys and not buying the game used (something everyone will defend, but hurts the publisher much worse than this ever would).

 

[JoeyJungle]

what happend with Fallout 4 and Funstock? Just curious.

They said they were going to send keys the day before release to make sure nobody got duplicate/non-working keys. Their site ended up crashing the day the keys were supposed to go out and wasn't back up until launch day (missing pre-load and any european launches), and some people still got duplicate keys.

They had a great sale though so...

I was under the impression that funstock was legit, is that not right? /r/gamedeals allows their posts.

 

[Tigress]

That's interesting. I cut all ties with CDPR after their Witcher 3 stunt with GMG.

And despite CDPR having a good reputation and this company now having even more signs pointing to the fact they are doing what CDPR actually accused them of you still think it is CDPR that is the issue?

 

[AHA-Lambda]

They said they were going to send keys the day before release to make sure nobody got duplicate/non-working keys. Their site ended up crashing the day the keys were supposed to go out and wasn't back up until launch day (missing pre-load and any european launches), and some people still got duplicate keys.

They had a great sale though so...

I was under the impression that funstock was legit, is that not right? /r/gamedeals allows their posts.

Unknown really they certainly were before but the Blops 3 fiasco showed that they were gutting retail keys there so who knows.
Is put them in the same boat as GMG right now, for better or worse.

 

[TheVoidDragon]

That is a list for digital partners, when have GAME ever been known for that? It's easy to see GetGames as an official partner if they price their games at RRP then it's their onus to contact Ubisoft to amend it, GMG have heavily discounted pre-orders far outside the stores on that list.

The list is for sites that have been authorized by Ubisoft to officially sell Uplay keys and who get the keys from them directly. GAME may not be as popular as other places but i think that's fairly irrelevant, they still sell them. GAME sell Uplay keys but aren't on the authorized retailers list, yet no one seems to be questioning that.

 

[ZOONAMI]

I buy designer clothes like D&G,Versace and Armani from other EU countries even though they are sold in the UK officially. I save a fortune doing this. It isn't illegal as I can buy from anywhere in Europe. I've never ran into a problem buying from GMG or Cdkeys

You guys are starting to covert me lol. I guess as long as the codes are official and work it doesn't really matter what market they are supposed to be for, unless those markets run out of codes. Does anyone know what markets the codes are usually coming from and if those markets run out of codes? Do the publishers resupply more codes so it's always easy to make a purchase in those regions?


Gmg shouldn't misrepresent their relationship with publishers though.

 

[SURGEdude]

I've got no problem with grey market if I can be reasonably certain the keys aren't obtained fraudulently. I've never had an issue with GMG nor known anybody who had an issue. Key reselling is totally legit in my book as long as it doesn't involve theft by the reseller.

Gmg shouldn't misrepresent their relationship with publishers though.

This is the only part of the situation that does bother me. You're right they shouldn't do that. Though perhaps its just something that was once true but never update. Still not a good look.

 

[GatticusFinch]

And despite CDPR having a good reputation and this company now having even more signs pointing to the fact they are doing what CDPR actually accused them of you still think it is CDPR that is the issue?

CDPR is and was the issue with Witcher 3. They choose to freeze out certain retailers like GMG to prop up their sales and sale prices on GoG (where they are, to this day, still selling Witcher 3 for $60, which should be all the evidence you need ). GMG tried to work with them to get keys, CDPR refused, so GMG acquired keys, legally, elsewhere.

CDPR breaks out the anti-competitive practices, and GAF defends them. Hilarious.

 

[EatinOlives]

How does it hurt the publisher? The keys were sold legitimately by the publisher at some point. Frankly, the publisher should be happy I am buying these keys and not buying the game used (something everyone will defend, but hurts the publisher much worse than this ever would).

How do you buy a "used" digital download key?

 

[John Wick]

You guys are starting to covert me lol. I guess as long as the codes are official and work it doesn't really matter what market they are supposed to be for, unless those markets run out of codes. Does anyone know what markets the codes are usually coming from and if those markets run out of codes? Do the publishers resupply more codes so it's always easy to make a purchase in those regions?


Gmg shouldn't misrepresent their relationship with publishers though.

There are some dodgy key sites. But I've never had a problem with GMG or Cdkeys. Got refunds any time I had any problems. The keys are official but obviously they aren't official resellers.

 

[Enter the Dragon Punch]

How do you buy a "used" digital download key?

Buying an account

 

[John Wick]

How do you buy a "used" digital download key?

So where did the key come from? Obviously from the publisher. Just from another country or region

 

[GatticusFinch]

How do you buy a "used" digital download key?

You missed the point. GAF opinions:

1. Buying a physical game disc used -- OK!

2. Buying an unused cd key from someone not "authorized" by the publisher -- BAD!

Only the second one guarantees income to the publisher because the key can only be used once, while the disc can be resold an infinite number of times. Yet the one that hurts the publisher most is the acceptable option.

 

[John Wick]

CDPR is and was the issue with Witcher 3. They choose to freeze out certain retailers like GMG to prop up their sales and sale prices on GoG (where they are, to this day, still selling Witcher 3 for $60, which should be all the evidence you need ). GMG tried to work with them to get keys, CDPR refused, so GMG acquired keys, legally, elsewhere.

CDPR breaks out the anti-competitive practices, and GAF defends them. Hilarious.

Boom!
Exactly! Why can't GMG aquire official codes from other 3rd party sellers if CDPR refused?

 

[John Wick]

You missed the point. GAF opinions:

1. Buying a physical game disc used -- OK!

2. Buying an unused cd key from someone not "authorized" by the publisher -- BAD!

Only the second one guarantees income to the publisher because the key can only be used once, while the disc can be resold an infinite number of times. Yet the one that hurts the publisher most is the acceptable option.

Brah talking sense isn't allowed

 

[Fractal]

Interesting... but I have no reservations on using unauthorized key stores, so nothing has changed.

 

[nynt9]

You missed the point. GAF opinions:

1. Buying a physical game disc used -- OK!

2. Buying an unused cd key from someone not "authorized" by the publisher -- BAD!

Only the second one guarantees income to the publisher because the key can only be used once, while the disc can be resold an infinite number of times. Yet the one that hurts the publisher most is the acceptable option.

You're straw manning. The problem is that GMG is claiming to be an authorized vendor despite selling unauthorized keys. When you're buying from a private individual there is no conceit that it's an authorized seller. You assume all risk.

 

[EatinOlives]

So where did the key come from? Obviously from the publisher. Just from another country or region

You're talking about a new imported key, not a used one. It's not possible to buy a PC key that's already been used.

You missed the point. GAF opinions:

1. Buying a physical game disc used -- OK!

2. Buying an unused cd key from someone not "authorized" by the publisher -- BAD!

Only the second one guarantees income to the publisher because the key can only be used once, while the disc can be resold an infinite number of times. Yet the one that hurts the publisher most is the acceptable option.

No, I haven't really missed the point. You keep going on about "GAF opinions" (cut the "hivemind" act already, btw) and continuously bringing up nonsense comparisons to physical games for no reason. Buying used games knowing they're used and buying new keys from different regions despite being advertised as official is completely different. I already pointed that out in a different post and you happily ignored it and kept on talking about how it's better to buy a GMG key than a PC game "used" (which is pretty much impossible at this point).