truesayian
Banned
doomed... Halo 2 is doomed. fell sory for microsoft..
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Halo 2 - no level editor, no ATV, co-op is offline only (?)
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Korranator
Member
Everyone should have stopped reading right there.
Well, I gave the whole quote from the magazine verbatim. It just seems like they would have mentioned online co-op if it were included. Maybe we'll hear more once the rest of the OXM article gets scanned.
It's either because they want to sell their own maps, or they just don't have enough time (which are at least decent, logical motivations). No developer has ever really been criticized for allowing user-created maps.
No kidding. They won't give us a map editor because of "artistic integrity" or "making sure that everybody has the same experience"? Come on. =\Littleberu said:
It's either because they want to sell their own maps, or they just don't have enough time (which are at least decent, logical motivations). No developer has ever really been criticized for allowing user-created maps.
Border for President!
Lack of online co-op will be a big disappointment for me, as I had already made plans to go through my first time with a friend from NY. And the ATV was the new vehicle I was most looking forward to trying out. Guess I'll have to settle for those in San Andreas.
The map editor, I never expected one. Consoles are still playing catchup with that feature. Though now that it has been mentioned, it would have been a kick-ass addition. User-created maps give FPS's so much life...
Lack of online co-op will be a big disappointment for me, as I had already made plans to go through my first time with a friend from NY. And the ATV was the new vehicle I was most looking forward to trying out. Guess I'll have to settle for those in San Andreas.
The map editor, I never expected one. Consoles are still playing catchup with that feature. Though now that it has been mentioned, it would have been a kick-ass addition. User-created maps give FPS's so much life...
GamerzXtreme
Banned
They need to leave stuff for Halo 3 .....
One thing that's strange is that if there's system-link coop, then there should be online coop as well, unless the larger lag introduces some super difficult technical difficulties. If system-link co-op is NOT in, then it makes absolute sense that online co-op isn't in, because having 2 systems run the same co-op campaign is a very difficult thing to do. Considering how complex the single player Halo already is, making it online would increase that complexity 5-fold.
In terms of no level editing, I think that's a very VERY reasonable decision. In essentially all fps games on the PC the best and most memorable levels that everybody wants to play are released from the creators of the game (CS not included of course). People have to remember that this is a CONSOLE environment which is entirely different from the open nature of a PC environment. You have to think of it from the casual perspective, as a developer you don't want to confuse and inundate them with extra information of a lower quality. Ahh forget it, you idiots that don't already see this won't see it by me telling you.
In terms of no level editing, I think that's a very VERY reasonable decision. In essentially all fps games on the PC the best and most memorable levels that everybody wants to play are released from the creators of the game (CS not included of course). People have to remember that this is a CONSOLE environment which is entirely different from the open nature of a PC environment. You have to think of it from the casual perspective, as a developer you don't want to confuse and inundate them with extra information of a lower quality. Ahh forget it, you idiots that don't already see this won't see it by me telling you.
Mike Works
Member
Timesplitters.Fight for Freeform said:
carbonbased
Member
Why would the user-made maps have to be available online? Bungie could just make it so that only official maps can be played on Live.
I think a better idea for a map editor would be some sort of tool for the PC which users could download, build a map with, and then upload it to their Xbox Live account from Xbox.com. This would solve the interface problems, although it might be taxing on their bandwidth.
No online coop, if true, is a huge letdown. I don't see how that's more taxing than 16 people all fighting and driving vehicles at once. And how are save games an issue? Just make it like Halo, where you can only start a level on cooperative if you've already beaten the levels before it. People could just pick a level and start a coop game on Live, and only people who have got to that level previously could join it. Problem solved.
I think a better idea for a map editor would be some sort of tool for the PC which users could download, build a map with, and then upload it to their Xbox Live account from Xbox.com. This would solve the interface problems, although it might be taxing on their bandwidth.
No online coop, if true, is a huge letdown. I don't see how that's more taxing than 16 people all fighting and driving vehicles at once. And how are save games an issue? Just make it like Halo, where you can only start a level on cooperative if you've already beaten the levels before it. People could just pick a level and start a coop game on Live, and only people who have got to that level previously could join it. Problem solved.
carbonbased
Member
You realize that the Timesplitters series had to save their custom maps to a tiny memory card, right? With Halo 2, you have a nice big hard drive to make your maps as big and full of objects as the official ones.Shompola said:Thanks for giving a good example of why it's a bad idea
rastex said:
Then why have I been playing on custom-map servers for Enemy Territory over a year now? And why did you exclude CS? Just because it alone completely destroys your argument?
Which means map makers would benefit in the same way PC devs do when they come to consoles. The closed structure means only having to worry about getting everything running smoothly for one set of specs.
Which is why you can designate custom servers as just that. I don't think casual gamers are so stupid they couldn't figure it out. But what do I know? I'm just an idiot who disagrees with your asinine points.
carbonbased
Member
That's also an option. Just have tabs or something that allow you to switch from viewing user-made maps to Bungie-created ones.Goreomedy said:
Goreomedy said:
Unfortunately the casual gamers ARE that stupid. Seriously, have you ever seen a focus group done with gaming? You are not the target audience, I know you wish you were, but times have changed and you're not. I'm the same way. If I had it my way, I'd totally go for custom maps, I'd really like to make my own, but I understand the situation and thus know better than to bitch about it.
What FPS games have you designed levels for? I've worked on DOOM, DOOM2, Heretic, HL and UT 2003. I have enough experience to tell you that doing so for a console game would suck. I can get into the reasons why:
1) The interface would not be as quick as PC level editors, meaning that for the most part the levels will not look close to Halo 2's levels.
2) For a game like Halo that has extremely well designed and lush levels, user created content will be bare looking, this has a lot to do with reason #1, and it will create content for the game that looks like crap.
3) Lighting the level will take perhaps days using an Xbox as your processor.
4) Creating custom textures and meshes will be impossible on the Xbox. You'd have to import those in from a PC.
5) The levels will be huge files...how will you distribute it? TS allowed you to fit levels into a memory card, making it's distribution easy. The lightmaps alone in Halo 2 will be massive data.
That is a better idea. Timesplitter's level editor was so limited and basic, you could make some fun maps, but it's not something you'd take seriously.
A game like Halo has really high standards for content. They can't have it any other way.
I think that it's perfectly fine to expect Bungie to release more maps in the future, able to be downloaded on Xbox Live. But I think asking for a level editor for a game like this (and I think console FPS games in general) is a bad idea for so many reasons (like the ones I've stated above). Perhaps games like Serious Sam (easy to use level editor, just take out the ability to create custom textures and meshes, and it doesn't take itself too seriously) could use one. But most of the serious FPS games don't need the hassle of having one.
-edit- holy crap, please excuse my bad grammar. Made too many mistakes to fix!
Halo 2 Vehicles...
http://www.freewebs.com/gothalo/vehicles.htm
These were listed in the OXM way back when... don't know if any of them have made it into the game.
the defunct atv...
and the real warthog
http://www.freewebs.com/gothalo/vehicles.htm
These were listed in the OXM way back when... don't know if any of them have made it into the game.
the defunct atv...
and the real warthog
Sp3eD
0G M3mbeR
I thought I remember hearing that people got Halo 1 system link co-op 2 player running through hacks or computer channeling stuff (like XConnect).
Anyway, online co-op would be cool, but as stated above system link should be REQUIRED. I hated that I had 2 Xbox's and TV's in my room and the best thing I could do with 2 players on them was 1 on 1 multiplayer...
...that being said another thing that comes to mind that HAS to be included are BOTS. Heads will roll if multiplayer bots aren't included in Halo 2. They help fill Lan games very nicely when you only have 3 or so players.
Anyway, online co-op would be cool, but as stated above system link should be REQUIRED. I hated that I had 2 Xbox's and TV's in my room and the best thing I could do with 2 players on them was 1 on 1 multiplayer...
...that being said another thing that comes to mind that HAS to be included are BOTS. Heads will roll if multiplayer bots aren't included in Halo 2. They help fill Lan games very nicely when you only have 3 or so players.
Fight for Freeform said:
Pretty much every Unreal editor, HL, and Ghost Recon.
The key word is level editor . Not a broad engine that comes with Unreal or Doom3.
I created many levels in Tony Hawk 2 with absouetly no problem with a console interference. A mouse and keyboard isn't needed to simply lay out a level.
Who cares? And this is why I said the argument is the dumbest retort ever.
If someone creates a crappy map, who gives a shit? How does it affect Halo?
That's simply not true. Even if it were, there are a million and one ways to work around it.
Custom content isn't a big deal. Do what every game editor out there does: let the users use the models and texture from the game.
I doubt the levels would be any larger then levels in UT2k4(on average 4-15 MB's).
Xbox has a 4 gigabyte harddrive. Distribuate the levels via Xbox Live.
Lightmaps aren't that large (unless Halo2 uses some kind of advanced lighting that i don't know about).
MightyHedgehog
Member
Well, it would've been a nice addition if there was a neat little map editor, but I never knew there was even a possibility for one -- Bungie certainly never mentioned it, AFAIK. No ATV? Oh well. As for the lack of online co-op, is this even confirmed?
The Faceless Master
Member
just wanted to jump in and say that halo 1 multiplayer maps are around 15-20MB apiece compressed
oh, and the timesplitters 1 map maker pretty much sucked... the phrase "better than nothing" comes to mind... the timesplitters 2 map maker was kind of decent, but you still couldn't do enough for some really cool stuff, because the allotted space woud run out...
oh, and the timesplitters 1 map maker pretty much sucked... the phrase "better than nothing" comes to mind... the timesplitters 2 map maker was kind of decent, but you still couldn't do enough for some really cool stuff, because the allotted space woud run out...
border said:
Nice analysis, Border. I'm going to go with the 'selling maps' hypothesis, myself.
Another point worth mentioning here is that hobbyist mappers for PC FPS's often turn out maps that are superior to anything that ships with those games at retail. I'm sure that there are would-be mappers out there who have the potential to crank out maps as good or better than anything from Bungie themselves... if they were provided with the proper tools. By not bundling a map editor with the game, you eliminate the possibility of bad maps, but you also eliminate any number of potentially great ones.
The possibility of the game shipping without bots is actually something that I find more irritating than the lack of a map editor, though. Considering how highly-regarded Halo's enemy AI is, I find it hard to believe that no one at Bungie is capable of coding decent AI routines for multiplayer bots. Nor can I accept bot support being cut due to time constraints, considering how the game's been given practically unlimited development time. The only reason I can see Halo 2 shipping without bots is as a tactic to push people into getting Live. For me, the whole point of bots is for those times when you're in the mood for a game, but don't feel like dealing with random assholes on a server. Cutting bot support to force me into playing other people online, with all the attendant headaches of searching for a server that doesn't suck when I'd rather just sit down and play, really rubs me the wrong way. Meh.
If you think people are too stupid to know the difference between Bungie-content and user made maps, is Xbox Live going to be forever devoid of user-created content? If the service is really supposed to evolve then you are going to have to teach people the difference sooner or later, and a high-profile title like this would probably be the place to do it.
Is it really that hard to keep players from getting confused? Have two serverlists -- one official and one "unofficial" (for user-maps). Each map creator gets to make their own informational splash screen that appears while the level is loading....it says something like "Zanzibar's Revenge -- This Map Designed by Chickenheadz of GA Clan." Not only does it keep people from assuming that all content comes from Bungie, but it lets people build prestige for their GamerTag and their Clan. Shitty map-makers get a bad reputation and people will know not to download their stuff.
This idea that "bad" maps are going to hurt the game is just bunk....people will play what they like and disregard the rest. 10-15 decent maps is all it really takes to win people over. Everything else after that is gravy. Halo 1 wasn't exactly packed to the brim with fantastic arenas, yet it's probably the biggest multiplayer sensation of this generation.
Is it really that hard to keep players from getting confused? Have two serverlists -- one official and one "unofficial" (for user-maps). Each map creator gets to make their own informational splash screen that appears while the level is loading....it says something like "Zanzibar's Revenge -- This Map Designed by Chickenheadz of GA Clan." Not only does it keep people from assuming that all content comes from Bungie, but it lets people build prestige for their GamerTag and their Clan. Shitty map-makers get a bad reputation and people will know not to download their stuff.
This idea that "bad" maps are going to hurt the game is just bunk....people will play what they like and disregard the rest. 10-15 decent maps is all it really takes to win people over. Everything else after that is gravy. Halo 1 wasn't exactly packed to the brim with fantastic arenas, yet it's probably the biggest multiplayer sensation of this generation.
MoxManiac said:
I would wonder the same thing. I hadn't heard of a level editor/map maker myself, so that's not big deal. The lack of online co-op is a bit confusing though.. I'm not sure why it couldn't be added. I don't THINK it will effect me, however, it could have been a nice addition. (assuming the wording is exact.. it's pretty vague as of now)
D
Deleted member 1235
Unconfirmed Member
I never even considered that co-op would be online, I can't think of why I would want to play co-op with a stranger actually. Co-op lan is going to totally rule though. Networked house + 2 xboxs + 2 headsets is going to be worth the price of admission come November 9th.
Apharmd Battler
Member
So can anybody confirm co-op LAN? Bungie was SUPPOSED to include it in Halo 1 but did not because they had to have the game ready for launch. They've been working on Halo 2 for some time now, I would hope they would have System-Link/LAN co-op. I could live without online co-op, but I'm tired of sharing screen real-estate with a co-op partner! If there isn't at least system link co-op that would really be depressing. That's the one multiplayer mode developers seem to keep forgetting. Some of us actually like working as a team.
Not a big blow to Halo2, but it would've been one hell of a perk.................
Not a big blow to Halo2, but it would've been one hell of a perk.................
it'll ruin the balance, if you're a Halo fanatic you'd understand. In no way would i want people to start using their maps online, it then becomes pointless, the draw of competition is lost.
If Halo 2 goes to PC, fine, do whatever you want. Just dont try this bullshit with XBL, leave it simple.
If Halo 2 goes to PC, fine, do whatever you want. Just dont try this bullshit with XBL, leave it simple.
carbonbased
Member
catfish said:
Yet you'd want to fight alongside a stranger in CTF? I take it you've never played Rainbow Six 3 on Xbox Live, which features an incredibly enjoyable four-player cooperative mode.carbonbased
Member
What? Who's forcing you to play on these maps? I can't believe people are damage controlling no map editor as a good thing. I wasn't expecting one in Halo 2 (considering Bungie has never mentioned such), but it's inclusion would definitely be a draw.Prine said:
Phoenix
Member
Prine said:
How would not having to play the same maps over and over again be a bad thing? Some of the best multiplayer maps I've played in any PC online game came from fanboy map hackers. I personally can't imagine using a console to make, test, and render maps - but I am baffled at how it would have a negative impact on competition.
That boxart sucks. I might just buy the limited edition Halo 2 just because of the better boxart.
Speaking of online co-op though, I always assumed that it would be online. Where did you people get the idea that it wouldn't? That quote just says it will be playable offline, not that it won't be playable online. I thought one of the Bungie people said it would be online a while ago, anyway.
Also the problem with a map editor for Halo 2 is that it would be uber-complicated and hard to make a good level (using only a controller?) and then there would be tons of shitty user-created levels that XBL would get flooded with. As someone said earlier, they should just keep it simple and not have user-created levels for Halo 2.
Speaking of online co-op though, I always assumed that it would be online. Where did you people get the idea that it wouldn't? That quote just says it will be playable offline, not that it won't be playable online. I thought one of the Bungie people said it would be online a while ago, anyway.
Also the problem with a map editor for Halo 2 is that it would be uber-complicated and hard to make a good level (using only a controller?) and then there would be tons of shitty user-created levels that XBL would get flooded with. As someone said earlier, they should just keep it simple and not have user-created levels for Halo 2.
