Support NeoGAF

[Karl2177]

Quickly finding games in Halo 5 seems to be the norm, unless for high ranks. Also:

This is why we don't have a Team Objective playlist though, right? And we don't have population counters right now.

Now I can find matches just fine. But when other games start to come out next year, will I be able to? I'd be fine if there was just a simple "Search times fast, search times normal, search times long" indicator on the playlists.

We don't have an objective list because there's only 2 objective modes even in the game. Have fun cycling through flag and strongholds lol

 

[Welfare]

Alright, forget population counters. Where is an actual leaderboard system? This is an omission.

Why can't I see where I am ranked in a division in the game, how many people are in the division, how I compare to friends, etc?

 

[Nollemaster]

That's pretty sweet. gotta give it a try. flying all over the map!

I've been trying it for the past 20 minutes, did not manage to pull it off even once

 

[Strider]

Alright, forget population counters. Where is an actual leaderboard system? This is an omission.

Why can't I see where I am ranked in a division in the game, how many people are in the division, how I compare to friends, etc?

Yet another UI feature that could be cool but is lacking...

Halotracker is your best bet at the moment though. Far from ideal though.

 

[malfcn]

About to get out of gold but lose with a 5 kill lead because of shit kids. Sigh.

And now gold 5 after another crap team. I want to rank up damn it.

 

[Feel the Swift]

Alright, forget population counters. Where is an actual leaderboard system? This is an omission.

Why can't I see where I am ranked in a division in the game, how many people are in the division, how I compare to friends, etc?

Halotracker is all there is for now but doesn't account for every single player (it tries to at least).

 

[Trup1aya]

Has anyone tried this new cool thruster trick? I've been trying to pull it off but no luck so far.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fQV4ittN9s

I have seen anything in this at all... Any tutorials?

 

[BraXzy]

Are the servers messed up atm or is it just me and my buddy? Keep getting Unable to Match and stuff :S

 

[link1201]

Are the servers messed up atm or is it just me and my buddy? Keep getting Unable to Match and stuff :S

According to reddit

Due to the matchmaking adjustment test, a high latency warning is displaying incorrectly. However, this does not stop you from searching.

 

[Herbs]

welp guess I'm not playing tonight

 

[link1201]

Looks as though they did a region test and were looking for feedback.

During the hours of 9-11 AM PDT on Thursday, December 10, we will be rolling out a series of temporary adjustments to test improvements for region-specific matchmaking for regions listed in this thread. If you are able, please join us in searching Halo 5 matchmaking during this time, and let us know about your experience, if you see improvements, etc.
We look forward to hearing your feedback!

 

[Samurai G0SU]

With the recent confirmation about the next xbox from Phil, it got me thinking about the next halo fps installment...

Some reasons:

1st - they moved away from it being a triology and instead labeled it as a journey. There will be more than 3 in this story arc.

2nd - the inclusion of other spartans as being just as important as MC in halo 5. kind of failed but they tried. So they definetly can do spin-offs like ODST again

3rd - Support for Halo 5:Guardians MP (Map/DLC/EXPERIENCES*) only lasts till june 2016. Then they will move on to the next project.

4th - this generation seems it will be shorter than the previous one. 3 years from now it'll almost be 2019. I think ms will want to launch first, and by a bigger window this time. So thinking 343i will launch halo 6 at the end of xbox one life-cycle will wont be really beneficial as a first party statement, or maybe im wrong in this thought process....

Again, i think: the next installment will be HALO 5: (something). I really think it will just be an expansion. More so focused on Osiris on what they are doing after the whole thing happened. Maybe even some arby action. Would be great to get tie ins with HTT and

Spoiler

Free Ben

or meet

Spoiler

BlackBox and Fero

I really think Halo 6 will be a launch title for the next xbox. The continuation of how MC will handle it. Maybe? Win 10 DX 12 seem to be the norm for a while. dont see how coding a game now will cause a dirastic issue for the next xbox.

Yeah.so e3 2017, Halo 5: "expansion title" will be revealed. all of those who buy it will get extra req included while the vanilla halo 5 peeps just have to req store it up. Story campaign follows locke and osiris as they try to uncover more truths and help humanity. expansion will have users download the mp portion. probably will cost 60. i think odst did this right? had halo mp included with extra stuff??

Anyway, that's my guess.

 

[Digital Limit]

Do we know any details about the next Xbox? My hope and expectation would be that it'd build on this architecture, essentially allowing for 100% compatibility with current gen titles but also allowing developers to leverage a bone-load more power.

 

[Poodlestrike]

Do we know any details about the next Xbox? My hope and expectation would be that it'd build on this architecture, essentially allowing for 100% compatibility with current gen titles but also allowing developers to leverage a bone-load more power.

Absolutely nothing.

Full BC will probably not be an issue, and it will most likely be an HTPC.

 

[BraXzy]

According to reddit

Ahh, I totally forgot about that. Thanks

It disappeared after a bit and did let us eventually search even with it showing up.

 

[malfcn]

Gold 6 to 4 because scrubs. I hate it.

 

[link1201]

Gold 6 to 4 because scrubs. I hate it.

Probably will get reset soon anyway.

 

[malfcn]

Probably will get reset soon anyway.

Still wanted to reach out of Gold. But it's like I'm not allowed, lol.

 

[link1201]

Still wanted to reach out of Gold. But it's like I'm not allowed, lol.

I understand but didn't know if you knew. I'd hate for someone to work really hard for a certain rank and then get it reset without knowing it was going to.

 

[malfcn]

The ranking is broken anyways. Since it's based on wins, you have garbage players with good tier because they're friend is good.

 

[inoperativ]

*stuff*

I think the best option for everyone involved would be for 343i to continue supporting Halo 5 for the rest of the XB1 lifetime and use REQs to finance that (while obviously gradually moving towards Halo 6 on the nextbox). An extra ODST-style campaign would be nice as DLC but the multi player base is perfect and only needs more content and some polishing on the UI/other stuff around the gameplay side of things -- if we accept that this generation has maybe 3 more years in it it just wouldn't make sense to either rush out another major title or release it by the time everyone is already moving towards the next console. If they want the competitive scene to do well they should support the game well past June -- the competition in that space is much stiffer now than it was in Halo 2/3 days, they can't just leave the game as it is for years and expect the community to stay around like Bungie could. I saw Strongside talking about the support they have planned in a twitch chat the other day and it definitely sounded like they're planning longer term than just June.

 

[Trup1aya]

With the recent confirmation about the next xbox from Phil, it got me thinking about the next halo fps installment...

SNIP

I'd be all for going the expansion route with this series until the next Xbox releases...

They should release a couple titles on the vein of ODST. I'd like some gamer facing back story on what Blue Team and Osiris were up to PRIOR to the events of Halo5:Gaurdians.

They could also give some backstory into what was going on politically in the Universe prior to H5. Something a long the lines of the Kilo-5 trilogy would be nice.

I'd like to the the MP would just be a continuation H5's existing multiplayer. It would be nice if the maps continued to be free, but maybe people who buy these expansions get early access, or a ton req items.

Also forge should grow into a Windows 10app

 

[Strider]

The ranking is broken anyways. Since it's based on wins, you have garbage players with good tier because they're friend is good.

Yea. The ranking system would be improved if players had a different ranking for when they queued solo vs when they queued with others... Or at least by giving us a lonewolves playlist.

With that being said bad teammates isn't a good excuse for why someone can't rank up. Yea you'll lose games because teammates will play poorly but it goes both ways. Sometimes you'll get free wins because the other team will have someone play shitty and/or quit.

If you truly deserve to rank up. You will.

--

Regarding Halo 6. I'll be disappoined if I'm expected to buy another console to play the next game.

I'm hoping Halo 5 is supported for a long time but I'm hoping Halo 6 releases in 2018 on the XB1.

 

[BigEvilTurtle]

Anyone seen the Grunt fall through space on the menu screen?

 

[Fuchsdh]

With the recent confirmation about the next xbox from Phil, it got me thinking about the next halo fps installment...

Some reasons:

1st - they moved away from it being a triology and instead labeled it as a journey. There will be more than 3 in this story arc.

2nd - the inclusion of other spartans as being just as important as MC in halo 5. kind of failed but they tried. So they definetly can do spin-offs like ODST again

3rd - Support for Halo 5:Guardians MP (Map/DLC/EXPERIENCES*) only lasts till june 2016. Then they will move on to the next project.

4th - this generation seems it will be shorter than the previous one. 3 years from now it'll almost be 2019. I think ms will want to launch first, and by a bigger window this time. So thinking 343i will launch halo 6 at the end of xbox one life-cycle will wont be really beneficial as a first party statement, or maybe im wrong in this thought process....

Again, i think: the next installment will be HALO 5: (something). I really think it will just be an expansion. More so focused on Osiris on what they are doing after the whole thing happened. Maybe even some arby action. Would be great to get tie ins with HTT and

Spoiler

Free Ben

or meet

Spoiler

BlackBox and Fero

I really think Halo 6 will be a launch title for the next xbox. The continuation of how MC will handle it. Maybe? Win 10 DX 12 seem to be the norm for a while. dont see how coding a game now will cause a dirastic issue for the next xbox.

Yeah.so e3 2017, Halo 5: "expansion title" will be revealed. all of those who buy it will get extra req included while the vanilla halo 5 peeps just have to req store it up. Story campaign follows locke and osiris as they try to uncover more truths and help humanity. expansion will have users download the mp portion. probably will cost 60. i think odst did this right? had halo mp included with extra stuff??

Anyway, that's my guess.

I'd be fine with an expansion.

I also think that Microsoft has gotten burned twice now by not having a Halo ready on or near launch, and that even if Halo isn't the same sales juggernaut as before they would want it to ship units from the get-go.

The specific June 2016 for free DLC window does strike me as surprisingly specific.

 

[VincentMatts]

I'd be fine with an expansion.

I also think that Microsoft has gotten burned twice now by not having a Halo ready on or near launch, and that even if Halo isn't the same sales juggernaut as before they would want it to ship units from the get-go.

The specific June 2016 for free DLC window does strike me as surprisingly specific.

Other than CE, thats never happened. Never hurt them before. What hurts the sales of the xbox more imo is having a cumbersome slow ass dashboard (like before) and broken halo games a la MCC.

 

[Samurai G0SU]

I think the best option for everyone involved would be for 343i to continue supporting Halo 5 for the rest of the XB1 lifetime and use REQs to finance that (while obviously gradually moving towards Halo 6 on the nextbox). An extra ODST-style campaign would be nice as DLC but the multi player base is perfect and only needs more content and some polishing on the UI/other stuff around the gameplay side of things -- if we accept that this generation has maybe 3 more years in it it just wouldn't make sense to either rush out another major title or release it by the time everyone is already moving towards the next console. If they want the competitive scene to do well they should support the game well past June -- the competition in that space is much stiffer now than it was in Halo 2/3 days, they can't just leave the game as it is for years and expect the community to stay around like Bungie could. I saw Strongside talking about the support they have planned in a twitch chat the other day and it definitely sounded like they're planning longer term than just June.

I Agree. Have Halo 5 MP grow and grow and evolve longer than june 2016. Cool bit about strongside giving a little tease about the future.

I'd be all for going the expansion route with this series until the next Xbox releases...

They should release a couple titles on the vein of ODST. I'd like some gamer facing back story on what Blue Team and Osiris were up to PRIOR to the events of Halo5:Gaurdians.

They could also give some backstory into what was going on politically in the Universe prior to H5. Something a long the lines of the Kilo-5 trilogy would be nice.

I'd like to the the MP would just be a continuation H5's existing multiplayer. It would be nice if the maps continued to be free, but maybe people who buy these expansions get early access, or a ton req items.

Also forge should grow into a Windows 10app

Forge for windows 10 sounds like a Great idea. Who wouldn't want to forge for fun, espcially if its free. Only requirement is using your MS account to sign in .. gotta have a catch somewhere right? haha (plus that would be the EASIEST way to share files on the xbox live ecosystem, probably.)

I'd be fine with an expansion.

I also think that Microsoft has gotten burned twice now by not having a Halo ready on or near launch, and that even if Halo isn't the same sales juggernaut as before they would want it to ship units from the get-go.

The specific June 2016 for free DLC window does strike me as surprisingly specific.

Yeah, perhaps the timing with the next xbox aligns perfectly for 343i to launch halo 6. The more i think about it, the more i'd liek that approach. I can tell these technical wizards have talent ooozing from them but the limitations of the xbox one hardware didnt even allow them to show it off. The game is beautiful but i know it could be even more beautiful.

Someones i readh those really tech threads about new memory for gpus and etc. goes over my head most of the time but what i gather is that some HMB2* stuff is going to be out of this world and the next consoles should use it

 

[BigEvilTurtle]

Game keeps losing connection and crashing... What the hell is going on?

 

[FUNKNOWN iXi]

It would be interesting if they killed off the Spartan IV's in the games like they did with the Spartan II's in The Fall of Reach. I think there's massive potential with a tragedy like that, hitting on several levels that 343 receives criticism for (ie: too many Spartans). Could allow for something special while giving 343 the opportunity to return to a point when Spartans were rare, when it was special to see them interact with the rest of humanity.

But what we have now is an entire army of Spartan IV's that feel no different than marine fodder. And as a side note, Halo 5 ended exactly how it should have began, with Arbiter, MC, Palmer and the rest of the UNSC united, ready to break some shit.

 

[Madness]

I'd be fine with an expansion.

I also think that Microsoft has gotten burned twice now by not having a Halo ready on or near launch, and that even if Halo isn't the same sales juggernaut as before they would want it to ship units from the get-go.

The specific June 2016 for free DLC window does strike me as surprisingly specific.

Frankie has already said that it's just legal speak and that's because for them, it becomes part of the next fiscal year. Obviously they're going to support Halo 5 beyond June 2016.

 

[Fuchsdh]

Frankie has already said that it's just legal speak and that's because for them, it becomes part of the next fiscal year. Obviously they're going to support Halo 5 beyond June 2016.

Oh I didn't doubt that Halo 5 would be supported longer than that, it's just I'm expecting that support to be more playlist updates, Forge additions, and additional REQs versus new dev-created maps.

But what we have now is an entire army of Spartan IV's that feel no different than marine fodder. And as a side note, Halo 5 ended exactly how it should have began, with Arbiter, MC, Palmer and the rest of the UNSC united, ready to break some shit.

Welp, Palmer's good that that.

I do hope the Crimson team members show up in future media and get more chances to be developed.

 

[Glass]

It would be interesting if they killed off the Spartan IV's in the games like they did with the Spartan II's in The Fall of Reach. I think there's massive potential with a tragedy like that, hitting on several levels that 343 receives criticism for (ie: too many Spartans). Could allow for something special while giving 343 the opportunity to return to a point when Spartans were rare, when it was special to see them interact with the rest of humanity.

But what we have now is an entire army of Spartan IV's that feel no different than marine fodder. And as a side note, Halo 5 ended exactly how it should have began, with Arbiter, MC, Palmer and the rest of the UNSC united, ready to break some shit.

I hope they do something like this. The story is more compelling with humanity on the back foot. The premise for the start of 6 is exciting, even if getting there was way too convoluted. They need to bring the series back to the tone of the originals. Also they need to realise how to make fun and compelling characters, none of the new characters are sticking with people imo, outside of the lore buffs who gives a shit about any character introduced in 4 and 5? Genesis' monitor is the exception. This sounds super harsh, but it comes out of me wanting more people to care about Halo's story. With the original trilogy, I got the sense the average joe gamer cared about Chief taking on the Covenant and saving the world, whereas the new direction with super serious Chief and the complicated set up has lost so many people.

 

[Triscuitable]

It would be interesting if they killed off the Spartan IV's in the games like they did with the Spartan II's in The Fall of Reach. I think there's massive potential with a tragedy like that, hitting on several levels that 343 receives criticism for (ie: too many Spartans). Could allow for something special while giving 343 the opportunity to return to a point when Spartans were rare, when it was special to see them interact with the rest of humanity.

But what we have now is an entire army of Spartan IV's that feel no different than marine fodder.

I don't want Spartan IVs to become a rarity. Their presence in the lore as such an overwhelming force is demonstrative of just how taxing the Human-Covenant War was on humanity's ability to progress. Once the war was over, such dramatic advancements were made that humankind was able to essentially perfect their super-soldier program. Would the loss of most S4s be poetic? Certainly. It pushes the "you can't fight fate" line quite hard when you go and do something like that. The thing is, that's not really what I want from a series like Halo. It's not really in the style of the series to return to the status quo, and that's what I like about it; it's a canon that grows and grows, never really falling back on playing to nostalgia in the same way as many other series would.

I don't think Halo 5's story was good, but the established lore for the series is very strong, and I appreciate that 343i isn't falling back on old Bungie tropes. Besides, it's not like Bungie ever really tried to expand the Halo lore that much. Halo 3 was a cacophony of smarmy dialogue and ham-acting to a hilarious extreme ("I AM TRUTH, THE VOICE OF THE COVENANT!" "And so, you must be silenced!"), while Reach basically took the established lore and turned everyone's favorite bit of the expanded universe and turned it into the greatest flame war the canon has ever seen.

And for the record, I don't necessarily want humanity to be the underdog. That's old hat that the series has done twice now (Human-Forerunner War, Human-Covenant War), and what Bungie is doing with Destiny right now. I want to see something new; something that still develops into an exciting story. Halo 5 wasn't it, to be sure, but I have high hopes for Halo 6.

 

[Lucky Seven]

Playing arena solo is just annoying. I only play Slayer and there's nothing worse than playing against parties.

 

[The Antitype]

LOL, I'm at the point where any time I'm killed by a grenade thrown 20 feet behind me, instant quit.

Too many times I've put grenades right at enemy's feet with virtually no effect, but a grenade 5 body lengths away is going to take me out with my shields at 85%.

Nope. Disrespect. Will not accept. Bye. Try again next match, Halo.


EDIT: Breakout is also an instant quit. Terrible mode that already has a playlist dedicated to it, for those who enjoy terrible things. Won't entertain that nonsense anymore when I'm trying to play Strongholds and CTF.

 

[BigEvilTurtle]

LOL, I'm at the point where any time I'm killed by a grenade thrown 20 feet behind me, instant quit.

Too many times I've put grenades right at enemy's feet with virtually no effect, but a grenade 5 body lengths away is going to take me out with my shields at 85%.

Nope. Disrespect. Will not accept. Bye. Try again next match, Halo.

You constantly whine about grenades yet you're the only one who seems to be having problems. Odd.

 

[BleedOrange]

Hoooly shit this game needs a Lone Wolves playlist desperately.

 

[The Antitype]

You constantly whine about grenades yet you're the only one who seems to be having problems. Odd.

*shrugs*

Perhaps I just have a greater awareness and lower tolerance for nonsense.

 

[Gabotron ES]

How many hours till tomorrow's stream from this post?

 

[Trup1aya]

You constantly whine about grenades yet you're the only one who seems to be having problems. Odd.

He also whines about his rank not matching his skill, yet admits to being a rampant quitter (which keeps him from ranking up)

 

[The Antitype]

He also whines about his rank not matching his skill, yet admits to being a rampant quitter (which keeps him from ranking up)

I never said my rank doesn't match my skill.

I said I'm a Platinum and I want to play against Platinums. Only the most pathetic 343i apologist would suggest this is a complex or unreasonable request.

I actually had a run of games against Platinum players a few days ago, and it was probably the most enjoyable the game has been in awhile.

 

[Feel the Swift]

Had some real assholes in my games today. Went negative one game and they act like I slaughtered their whole family. Why don't people understand there's plenty of factors that go into a loss? I don't get the point in talking shit to your teammates after the game.

 

[z3phon]

Is there any penalty for people quitting games?
It's incredibly frustrating with how often I come across people leaving matches.

 

[Fuchsdh]

Had some real assholes in my games today. Went negative one game and they act like I slaughtered their whole family. Why don't people understand there's plenty of factors that go into a loss? I don't get the point in talking shit to your teammates after the game.

Halo is at its most timid when it comes to rage in video games this days, so count yourself lucky.

 

[Feel the Swift]

Halo is at its most timid when it comes to rage in video games this days, so count yourself lucky.

True, I don't know why I even ask. Good thing there's a Block button.

 

[Laws00]

played SWAT was a tier platinum 3

One person on the team was idle, another person left

Me and this other guy. We tried our best.

Went down a tier. Omg that pissed me off something fierce

 

[pieface]

Omg, 6 games of BTB tonight, all on Deadlock. WTF is wrong with this? I just back out now if it's Deadlock.

 

[Trup1aya]

I never said my rank doesn't match my skill.

I said I'm a Platinum and I want to play against Platinums. Only the most pathetic 343i apologist would suggest this is a complex or unreasonable request.

I actually had a run of games against Platinum players a few days ago, and it was probably the most enjoyable the game has been in awhile.

But your skill is competiive diamonds... Evidenced by your ability to out play everyone in an all diamond match. You'd probably be ranked diamond if it weren't for your quiting.

Also halo has NEVER limited matchmaking to ranks that are exactly equal. That IS an unreasonable request when MM times and Ping also need to be considered. Such specific parameters would make matchmaking unbearably long, and limit people's opportunities to rank up.

You do understand that there is t much skill gap between Plat4 and diamond1 right?

Edit: I'm far from an apologist. I've called out 343 plenty for every game they've been a part of. But being a platinum playing against folks in nearby ranks is not an reasonable complaint.

 

[link1201]

How many hours till tomorrow's stream from this post?

About 24.5.

...

Nope. Disrespect. Will not accept. Bye. Try again next match...

Just out of curiosity how often do you get a quit ban, do they actually increase in length?

 

[TCKaos]

Can we take a minute to talk about Warzone and the REQ system? Just a second?

At this point it's been just over six weeks since launch. Initially, many people had fears that those who were able to purchase REQ points with real money and those with absurd amounts of free time would be able to stomp on normal players with relative ease due to the number of rare REQs they had. The in-game REQ Level system is meant to alleviate this. With the amount of points any player would have at a given time limited and the cost of each REQ ensuring that they couldn't be continuously used, those fears mostly subsided.

However, anecdotally we know that this system is still incredibly inefficient. Like all other Pay-To-Win systems Halo 5 has its Whales. I have an unemployed friend in the UK that lives off of the disability he has for his aspergers and other various mental conditions. He's played nearly 200 hours of Halo 5 and has spent well over $900 USD to complete his armory. I know that he cannot be the only case. There are presumably many others like him - players who have spent an exorbitant amount of time or money on the game and have amassed large fortunes of REQ cards. This isn't a curse of the concept of microtransactions, this is merely the reality of the situation. Those with compulsive personalities and disorders have no functional limit to how much money they will spend or how much time they will sink in to the game.

There is absolutely no way that a casual, normal, or even your "typical" hardcore Halo player will be able to keep up with the sheer output of this outlying Whales. I simply do not have the time or money to compete with someone to whom neither of those things matter.

We must also recognize that in many cases the rarer REQs are outright better than more common ones and don't cost nearly as much REQ as they should. Ultra and Sword Ghosts are only one more point than Standard Ghosts despite boasting far superior armor and weaponry. Some weapons, such as the Lawgiver, cost the same as their normal variant.

If the REQ Level wasn't solely dependent on the performance of the individual player this wouldn't be an issue, but as it stands there's nothing to stop a decent player from building up enough momentum with their team to completely stomp on a team that has no way of defending themselves. These Whales are far more capable of taking out bosses in the early game and far more able to hold other players at arm's length and just fucking shellack them with heavy weapons. Multiple, multiple times in the last few days I've been getting shit on by massed heavy vehicles.

I'm talking about situations where my team is stuck in a single armory, pinned down by three Scorpions, an Ultra Banshee and a Sword Banshee. Situations where we can't get out of our base because we can't get through the two Sword Wraiths and the Corp Scorpion that are just right outside. Situations where two Banshees and a Missile Hog take out Hestro because our team only has a Wraith and a Gungoose through no fault of their own.

There needs to be some sort of solution to this. I've come up with a few ideas:

• Players need to have a steady stand-by of pre-supplied REQs in the same way that in Halo 4 players in Infinity modes would have pre-supplied Loadouts. They don't have to be the best, they just have to be serviceable. Some way to access Plasma Pistols, or Spartan Lasers or Missile Hogs. Maybe they cost more than normal or something, but players need to be given the means to compete.
• Players need to be able to purchase Silver and Gold packs at a faster rate or need to be given 2-3 more cards per pack. As it stands a normal player is going to take 45 minutes to an hour to get a Silver Pack and an hour and a half to two hours for a Gold. To players for which time and money aren't an actual obstacle, they can simply buy as many cards as they need. I propose that either REQ packs be made cheaper (3000 for Silver, 7500 for Gold) or players need to get a considerable amount more REQ points per game.

Sorry for the long post, I'm just getting tired of getting shit on by teams that are able to spawn 3-6 Scorpions and Banshees per game while I lack the means to defend myself or contribute in any meaningful sense.