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Halo |OT8| A Salt on the Control Room

Blissful

Neo Member
Uh, it's there. If it's still trueskill in Halo 4 then having a skill level is part of the matchmaking formula, you get matched with people similar in skill. To even have matchmaking you need to have some sort of skill denotation. I'm pretty sure it was there in Halo Reach as well, it got to the point once that I could only get matched up with like 2 other teams in the regular MLG list.

Arena was just a different weird system that just gave you ranks for wins or something, at first it tried to get individual merit but that went away quick IIRC.

What you're whining about is being able to see the stupid little rank number next to your name again, that just encourages cheating and win-trading. I hope it never comes back. Unnecessary.


Yeah you don't even know what you're babbling about. Carry on.

Arena was the only playlist that really matched you up with players with similar skills as you. I got matched up with MLG pros sometimes and I barley play the MLG playlist.

You seem to be the one who doesn't truely know how the system works and just assume that there is something there when there really isnt.

Cheating shouldn't be an issue if 343 is willing to be active with the community. BS Angel has been great a help in dealing with Arena cheaters when I sent in proof to her. She took care of them within 24 hours time.
 

Ramirez

Member
It gets super weird at the end! That part is worth seeing even if the leadup is some of the most slowly paced storytelling I've ever read in a modern novel.

I'll definitely push on, but other than the time I read the Simarillion in high school, I don't think my eyes have ever glazed over so quickly from boredom.
 

LAUGHTREY

Modesty becomes a woman
Arena was the only playlist that really matched you up with players with similar skills as you. I got matched up with MLG pros sometimes and I barley play the MLG playlist.

You seem to be the one who doesn't truely know how the system works and just assume that there is something there when there really isnt.

Cheating shouldn't be an issue if 343 is willing to be active with the community. BS Angel has been great a help in dealing with Arena cheaters when I sent in proof to her. She took care of them within 24 hours time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TrueSkill

It's right there. That's how matchmaking works. Having the number show up next to your name is the only difference between Halo 2/3 and Reach.

It's obviously not perfect, and it can only match you with other people looking for matches, and then it tests the network for lag and shit.

It's there. You literally can't have matchmaking without some sort of rank, hidden or otherwise. Dealwithit.
 
Hey Tashi, is there an ETA on the HaloGAF Radio Podcast (featuring Bravo) anytime soon, along with Halo ost goodness? :)
---
Oh Shit, isn't the Podcast with 343 discussing the complete combat sandbox is coming up soon? (Forgot Josh is getting Ellis a new Mac)
 

Brolic Gaoler

formerly Alienshogun
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TrueSkill

It's right there. That's how matchmaking works. Having the number show up next to your name is the only difference between Halo 2/3 and Reach.

It's obviously not perfect, and it can only match you with other people looking for matches, and then it tests the network for lag and shit.

It's there. You literally can't have matchmaking without some sort of rank, hidden or otherwise. Dealwithit.

Plus I know it's there when I go play a playlist I've not been in in a long time. The people are typically ranked way lower than me, and they all play like they just got the game.

It's definitely there, and I think it's usually based on the party leader, it's just the game has to deal with low populations and other shit too.
 

Havok

Member
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TrueSkill

It's right there. That's how matchmaking works. Having the number show up next to your name is the only difference between Halo 2/3 and Reach.

It's obviously not perfect, and it can only match you with other people looking for matches, and then it tests the network for lag and shit.

It's there. You literally can't have matchmaking without some sort of rank, hidden or otherwise. Dealwithit.
Skill restrictions can be tightened or loosened by the dev for general matchmaking in order to speed it up -- that's how the ranked/social split worked in 3, that's how Arena works in Reach, by tightening the pool when you're placed in a division. People aren't being literal when they say that skill matching doesn't exist in Reach, it's just far too lax in most of the lists. Understandable given the population issues so many playlists have, but certainly not ideal. At 1.85 K/D, 80% W/L, and Nova, I shouldn't be matched with or against a 0.35 K/D 25% W/L Warrant Officer, but it happens on a regular basis.
 

Blissful

Neo Member
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TrueSkill

It's right there. That's how matchmaking works. Having the number show up next to your name is the only difference between Halo 2/3 and Reach.

It's obviously not perfect, and it can only match you with other people looking for matches, and then it tests the network for lag and shit.

It's there. You literally can't have matchmaking without some sort of rank, hidden or otherwise. Dealwithit.

So why is Halo 3's MM better than Halo Reach's MM in terms of matching you up with players that make the matches feel competitive and challenging. Halo Reach is like Halo 3s social playlist, where you can get matched up with a player who just made an account or a player that is skilled and played for numerous hours.

It baffels me that you failed to notice that.

Plus I know it's there when I go play a playlist I've not been in in a long time. The people are typically ranked way lower than me, and they all play like they just got the game.

It's definitely there, and I think it's usually based on the party leader, it's just the game has to deal with low populations and other shit too.

Honestly if it was there, I wouldn't be bitching in the first place.


Skill restrictions can be tightened or loosened by the dev for general matchmaking in order to speed it up -- that's how the ranked/social split worked in 3, that's how Arena works in Reach, by tightening the pool when you're placed in a division. People aren't being literal when they say that skill matching doesn't exist in Reach, it's just far too lax in most of the lists. Understandable given the population issues so many playlists have, but certainly not ideal. At 1.85 K/D, 80% W/L, and Nova, I shouldn't be matched with or against a 0.35 K/D 25% W/L Warrant Officer, but it happens on a regular basis.

Exactly!
 

CyReN

Member
The thing that bothers me about the whole no ranks/cheaters in mm is they won. If you can't stop selling accounts or banhammer you are punishing at least 95% of the community. If Halo 4 ships with no ranks I fear the continuation for fans giving Halo another shot after Reach. Casual to competitive fans want ranks.
 

LAUGHTREY

Modesty becomes a woman
So why is Halo 3's MM better than Halo Reach's MM in terms of matching you up with players that make the matches feel competitive and challenging.

Because anecdotal evidence.

Skill restrictions can be tightened or loosened by the dev for general matchmaking in order to speed it up -- that's how the ranked/social split worked in 3, that's how Arena works in Reach, by tightening the pool when you're placed in a division. People aren't being literal when they say that skill matching doesn't exist in Reach, it's just far too lax in most of the lists. Understandable given the population issues so many playlists have, but certainly not ideal. At 1.85 K/D, 80% W/L, and Nova, I shouldn't be matched with or against a 0.35 K/D 25% W/L Warrant Officer, but it happens on a regular basis.

I'm pretty sure this one is being literal.


The solution to the problem you're talking about would make matchmaking times for really good people and really bad people super long.
 

Brolic Gaoler

formerly Alienshogun
The thing that bothers me about the whole no ranks/cheaters in mm is they won. If you can't stop selling accounts or banhammer you are punishing at least 95% of the community. If Halo 4 ships with no ranks I fear the continuation for fans giving Halo another shot after Reach. Casual to competitive fans want ranks.

I think that's a bit much, but I understand the concern given your motivation. It's something I'd like to see come back, especially a more in depth version, but I hardly think it's a deal breaker. I'd be more interested in an anything that keeps the playlist populations high. Getting matched up with hosts in Brazil/Mexico is for the fucking birds.
 

LAUGHTREY

Modesty becomes a woman
The thing that bothers me about the whole no ranks/cheaters in mm is they won. If you can't stop selling accounts or banhammer you are punishing at least 95% of the community. If Halo 4 ships with no ranks I fear the continuation for fans giving Halo another shot after Reach. Casual to competitive fans want ranks.

Didn't they talk about having a rank system with credits and stuff again? Don't you level a specialization or something silly up to 50 and then get the perk permanently and then prestige again?

There's something involving ranks and leveling up there, that's all they need.
 
The thing that bothers me about the whole no ranks/cheaters in mm is they won. If you can't stop selling accounts or banhammer you are punishing at least 95% of the community. If Halo 4 ships with no ranks I fear the continuation for fans giving Halo another shot after Reach. Casual to competitive fans want ranks.

Won is kind of binary. They didnt win because they cant make money from selling accounts and they have nothing to cheat for anymore.

The situation is really murky and I still have not seen one system of skill based ranking that is good enough. When a game gets big its going to attract people who like to abuse thing's thats just a fact.

The Banhammer cant ever work flawlessly because of the unique stipulations to each person and the sheer numbers.

Ranks are great in theory but in practice they also do a great deal of harm to players enjoyment.

A good system is one that while rewarding a player is also going to diminish over time if you do no constantly maintain that rank making cheaters and sellers have less incentive to actual cheat and sell
 

Blissful

Neo Member
Didn't they talk about having a rank system with credits and stuff again? Don't you level a specialization or something silly up to 50 and then get the perk permanently and then prestige again?

There's something involving ranks and leveling up there, that's all they need.

Are you serious? no that is not all they need. Why are you hating on a skill based ranking system? If you fear it so much then stick to the casual playlists that don't take skill in to account.

It really sucks how Black Ops 2 is is brining in a Competitive Ranking System, and Halo 4 is sticking to a "prestige like" system that will lose a lot of interest for those looking for competitive play.
 

CyReN

Member
Reset ranks arena style and retire them after 3 months, they buy a account? well damn they only have it for around 90 days at most then nothing. Nothing is ever going to be perfect, yes you can say no ranks is perfect but it hurts everyone in the long run.
 

DeadNames

Banned
Are you serious? no that is not all they need. Why are you hating on a skill based ranking system? If you fear it so much then stick to the casual playlists that don't take skill in to account.

It really sucks how Black Ops 2 is brining in a Competitive Ranking System, and Halo 4 is sticking to a prestige "like" system that will lose a lot of interest for those looking for competitive play.

Has a skill based ranking system been denied/confirmed for Halo 4?

Honestly, I'm sure they've thought about it, and since they're getting so much influence from CoD, they have to add one because CoD has one!
 
So do we have any idea whether the 'out of map timer' is returning?

I much prefer the situation pre-Reach... it meant more stupid HLG trolls, but there are still plenty of exploits in Reach mm, and clever map making is the best solution. Same goes for the campaign; let my explore, and design the maps better instead of relying on a contrived timer to do the job for you. Please.
 

CyReN

Member
Has a skill based ranking system been denied/confirmed for Halo 4?

Honestly, I'm sure they've thought about it, and since they're getting so much influence from CoD, they have to add one because CoD has one!

The only thing we got is Frankie doesn't like 1-50. I really hope we hear at Pax or someone at least asks in the Q/A and not about wanting a console for free.
 

FyreWulff

Member
So do we have any idea whether the 'out of map timer' is returning?

I much prefer the situation pre-Reach... it meant more stupid HLG trolls, but there are still plenty of exploits in Reach mm, and clever map making is the best solution. Same goes for the campaign; let my explore, and design the maps better instead of relying on a contrived timer to do the job for you. Please.

So instead of open-ish areas with kill timers, the maps will all be canyons again.
 

Blissful

Neo Member
Because people boosted. Not like people boosted in Reach or anything... No mass resets, it was all good.

Havn't you heard of Grifball boosting? You can pretty much get 30k credits in one game. The only reason there was no mass reset is because the Halo Reach population is already as bad as it could be and 343 doesn't have the time or effort to look after boosters, since they are working on Halo 4.
 
I still like this idea

Arena 2.0

Team Slayer 4v4
Team Objective 4v4

Both Playlists carry a skill ranking of 1-50. Weapons spawn on map, no custom loadouts.

Battle Rifle + Pistol
DMR + Pistol
Carbine + Pistol

The last week of the month players are are rated differently. For this period your rank becomes locked and you instead compete for a Arena ranking. This is ranked based on various factors and ultimately pretty similar to how arena divisions work now. The key point being that diversion you end up in gets saved to your profile and aids in matchmaking processes.

So for instance by the end of month 4 top tier players like Ninja would have Lvl 50 (4 Onyx) were as a player like Kyle or Juices would have Lvl 50 (1 onyx 3 gold) so now its going to filter players to even closer skill gaps.

These playlists are free of any type of credit earning and nothing unlockable is tied to them. Its all about showing off your skill.

Rank's reduce at the rate of one level per entire week of not playing meaning that cheating to earn that 50 or selling accounts becomes a moot point.

You might of bought a Lvl 50 (5 Onyx) account but the next week its going to be a Lvl 49 and the week after its going to be a lvl 48.

Players at the lower end of the spectrum like me for instance will still get a Onyx if we win every game and play well in the division week but its going to be imprinted with the fact i obtained it while locked at a Lvl 26.

So basically in your player profile card you would have.

Current Level = 35
Month 1 Onyx (level 14)
Month 2 Onyx (level 17)
Month 3 Onyx (level 14)
ect
ect
 
Nobody bridges host or standbys in Halo Reach, that is for sure.
And that is directly linked to no visible ranking system.

Yeah people like to fuck with pros' internet, but that is a different story.
 

LAUGHTREY

Modesty becomes a woman
Havn't you heard of Grifball boosting? You can pretty much get 30k credits in one game. The only reason there was no mass reset is because the Halo Reach population is already as bad as it could be and 343 doesn't have the time or effort to look after boosters, since they are working on Halo 4.

Credits have nothing to do with rank.

I wonder where you get your information about what 343 is doing too. Do you have a friend who has an uncle that knows someone that works for them?
 

FyreWulff

Member
Honestly.

Don't even try Team Objective again. Leave Objective in BTB.

We've had 3 games now, the populace doesn't want Objective, it'll just be introduced as a fairly standard playlist then slowly converted into hardcore-lite 5 months later when it has 300 population again.

Roll a 4v4 Obj playlist once in a while as a week-long special.
 

Blissful

Neo Member
Nobody bridges host or standbys in Halo Reach, that is for sure.
And that is directly linked to no visible ranking system.

Yeah people like to fuck with pros' internet, but that is a different story.

Getting a crappy team 5x in a row feels just as bad as getting host booted.

Credits have nothing to do with rank.

I wonder where you get your information about what 343 is doing too. Do you have a friend who has an uncle that knows someone that works for them?

You seem very lost and focused more on figuring out ways to make a counter-arugment rather than actually reading what I wrote.

You need to earn credits in Halo Reach in order to rank up. So I need a certain amount of credits to get from Eclipse to Nova. The Halo Reach ranks don't factor in at all to skill and there is no true skill implementations to any of the playlists except for Arena.

There will always be players cheating in any kind of game, whether casual or competitive. Players looking for competitive play and a good skill based ranking system should not be penalized because of cheaters.
 

Havok

Member
Honestly.

Don't even try Team Objective again. Leave Objective in BTB.

We've had 3 games now, the populace doesn't want Objective, it'll just be introduced as a fairly standard playlist then slowly converted into hardcore-lite 5 months later when it has 300 population again.

Roll a 4v4 Obj playlist once in a while as a week-long special.
I dislike this plan. Objective's population has been very steady for the last year or so, at close to 1k players during peak hours. It's usually higher than Super Slayer. At about 1/10 the population of the huge heavy hitters, why shouldn't that merit a list if it can sustain itself? If they did a proper job of marketing and promoting it, and rewarding players who play it, then that number could be significantly higher.

Looking at their Reach BTB changes, they might force Slayer and Heavies down people's throats with it again, getting objective in BTB these days often requires a large party to force the vote.

The definition of insanity is trying something 4 times and expecting a different result.
What expectations are you setting for it that make Reach's Objective playlist a failure? It's a hard playlist to compete in. It's never going to top Living Dead or Slayer. But it offers an experience that defines Halo for a whole bunch of people, and can sustain its population just fine, and I firmly believe it could succeed if the gametypes they shove in aren't fucking horrible like VIP in 3 or the nonsense they have in there now. People didn't play it in 3 because the gametypes were trash at launch. Team Flag was a huge success, largely because it was Double EXP, but also because it was fun, unlike proper TO. I guess I could see your point if we were still at the point where TO was maxing out at 500 players per night, but it's recovered significantly since then after the TU.
 

Brolic Gaoler

formerly Alienshogun
Honestly.

Don't even try Team Objective again. Leave Objective in BTB.

We've had 3 games now, the populace doesn't want Objective, it'll just be introduced as a fairly standard playlist then slowly converted into hardcore-lite 5 months later when it has 300 population again.

Roll a 4v4 Obj playlist once in a while as a week-long special.

I'd rather see other shit removed than the OBJ playlist. Especially redundant shit.
 

FyreWulff

Member
I dislike this plan. Objective's population has been very steady for the last year or so, at close to 1k players during peak hours. It's usually higher than Super Slayer. At about 1/10 the population of the huge heavy hitters, why shouldn't that merit a list if it can sustain itself?

Looking at their Reach BTB changes, they might force Slayer and Heavies down people's throats with it again, getting objective in BTB these days often requires a large party to force the vote.

The definition of insanity is trying something 4 times and expecting a different result.

edit: and yeah, I don't mean with Reach's Slayer-heavy BTB. This would be a definitely objective-heavy BTB.
 
You seem to be the one who doesn't truely know how the system works and just assume that there is something there when there really isn't.
Trueskill doesn't guarantee close skill matches. What it does guarantee is that it can accurately rank people within a relatively small number of games. The playlists in Halo 3 and Reach had variable skill matching restrictions. You can still see it for yourself: go search in a Halo 3 ranked playlist.

"LOOKING FOR IDEAL MATCH"
"LOOKING FOR CLOSE MATCH"
"LOOKING FOR ANY MATCH"

You could allow a match between a 50 and a 25 (default rank) and it doesn't mean jack about the effectiveness of Trueskill. Sure, we could make it so searching in Team Slayer in Reach only makes matches with a maximum difference in skill level across all players within 3 grades, but then what do you do with mixed parties? What do you do when everyone starts complaining that searching takes too long or doesn't work at all?

But I read on NeoGAF that Trueskill doesn't exist, there's no code behind the search restriction toggles, Halo doesn't run at 60 frames per second because they're filming TV commercials, and Neil Armstrong was hopping around a sound stage 43 years ago. If only we could all be so enlightened.
 
Trueskill doesn't guarantee close skill matches. What it does guarantee is that it can accurately rank people within a relatively small number of games. The playlists in Halo 3 and Reach had variable skill matching restrictions. You can still see it for yourself: go search in a Halo 3 ranked playlist.

"LOOKING FOR IDEAL MATCH"
"LOOKING FOR CLOSE MATCH"
"LOOKING FOR ANY MATCH"

You could allow a match between a 50 and a 25 (default rank) and it doesn't mean jack about the effectiveness of Trueskill. Sure, we could make it so searching in Team Slayer in Reach only makes matches with a maximum difference in skill level across all players within 3 grades, but then what do you do with mixed parties? What do you do when everyone starts complaining that searching takes too long or doesn't work at all?

But I read on NeoGAF that Trueskill doesn't exist, there's no code behind the search restriction toggles, Halo doesn't run at 60 frames per second because they're filming TV commercials, and Neil Armstrong was hopping around a sound stage 43 years ago. If only we could all be so enlightened.

Nobody gives a fuck the game has Trueskill. Trueskill sucks. We need ranked playlists...
 

Blissful

Neo Member
Trueskill doesn't guarantee close skill matches. What it does guarantee is that it can accurately rank people within a relatively small number of games. The playlists in Halo 3 and Reach had variable skill matching restrictions. You can still see it for yourself: go search in a Halo 3 ranked playlist.

"LOOKING FOR IDEAL MATCH"
"LOOKING FOR CLOSE MATCH"
"LOOKING FOR ANY MATCH"

You could allow a match between a 50 and a 25 (default rank) and it doesn't mean jack about the effectiveness of Trueskill. Sure, we could make it so searching in Team Slayer in Reach only makes matches with a maximum difference in skill level across all players within 3 grades, but then what do you do with mixed parties? What do you do when everyone starts complaining that searching takes too long or doesn't work at all?

But I read on NeoGAF that Trueskill doesn't exist, there's no code behind the search restriction toggles, Halo doesn't run at 60 frames per second because they're filming TV commercials, and Neil Armstrong was hopping around a sound stage 43 years ago. If only we could all be so enlightened.

Searching never really took long in Halo 3 and I was fine with the way I was matched up regardless of having the odd level 40 in a level 50 game. Halo Reach had a lot of problems and is pretty much a bad game. The TU barley saved the population and the playlists were pretty boring after playing for 30 minutes of non stop casual games.
 
So instead of open-ish areas with kill timers, the maps will all be canyons again.
Hmm, I wasn't expecting there to be such a thing as the out-of-map-timer defence force.

I really do not see how it adds to the game, thinking of the more open environments in H3... except in so far as it makes the job easier for designers and gives them time to concentrate on other things.

Edit: But then, you want to remove Team Objective, so I clearly have nothing in common with you at all!
 
Part of the fun of Halo 2 was seeing just how far out of the map you could get, because a lot of the campaign/multiplayer play spaces were huge, not to mention surprisingly detailed.
 
If I was a GIF-posting man, there'd be a multitude of heads hitting desks.

Unless you're just trolling me by posting insufferable idiocy.

No Im not. You are literally the worst poster on this forum. We don't have ranks we have "Trueskill working behind the scenes"

Yet there is none. I win 90% of my games. There is no Trueskill.
 

kylej

Banned
hired noobs aren't you from gamefaqs or ign or some other board for 12 year olds. Maybe go back there if Halogaf bothers you so much.
 
What, no?

Oh, nvm.

Honestly.

Don't even try Team Objective again. Leave Objective in BTB.

We've had 3 games now, the populace doesn't want Objective, it'll just be introduced as a fairly standard playlist then slowly converted into hardcore-lite 5 months later when it has 300 population again.

Roll a 4v4 Obj playlist once in a while as a week-long special.

lolwut. I'm curious as to what you would make your ideal playlist setup for Halo 4.
 

Tawpgun

Member
If I was a GIF-posting man, there'd be a multitude of heads hitting desks.

Unless you're just trolling me by posting insufferable idiocy.
Yeah, its anecdotal evidence, but in ranked Halo 3, as a brigadier, I was being matched with Colonels, Brigs, and at times generals.

In Halo Reach Arena, I get matched up with people around the same skill.

Truth be told, the answer is probably because competetive people who try harder to win games reside in these playlists, so I get matched up. But if that really is the reason, then Halo 4 ranked something would have that same effect.

Difference between Halo Reach and 3 is that no one gives a shit about Arena in Reach.
 
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