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[DarkKyo]

Killed him at the very last fraction of a second before the laser burned a hole through me.

 

[Prine]

He is the one that used the poured hundreds of hours argument. But I am done, no need to explain why I hate the bloom to people new to Halo.

Im not new mate, i love the bloom. Why so ghossah Nutter?

 

[Popeck]

I don't have a real problem with the bloom mechanics of Reach, but maybe that's because I have a pretty broad taste with games and I really liked Shadowrun which had similar mechanics in play.

 

[Gui_PT]

I just saw this one

http://www.bungie.net/Stats/Reach/FileDetails.aspx?fid=1162509

:lol :lol

 

[Devin Olsen]

Yep I just loaded up Halo 1 PC and no matter where I shot the wall from on Longest the shots landed in the exact same place EVERY single time, all 12 shots.

Can anyone confirm that the Xbox version of Halo 1 is the same as in Fyre's analysis?

I was sure this was the case, I just do not have access to an xbox right now.

So his Halo 1 comparison is wrong, and his Halo 2 comparison is unfair. The Halo 2 pistol was never labeled as an accurate weapon.

Edit: To give some non-bloom discussion to this topic.

Do you guys think they will ever have dynamic maps like Colossus (H2).

In Slayer game-types there was a bridge between the two bases, in CTF & Bomb it was gone. It was neat that they could change the map dependent on game variation... It would be cool to see this implemented into MM...

 

[Louis Wu]

Oh, c'mon. Everyone loves the new Flying Eggshell.

That is AWESOME.

I just saw this one

http://www.bungie.net/Stats/Reach/FileDetails.aspx?fid=1162509

That is more awesome. :lol

 

[Deadly Cyclone]

Fun with death animations. :lol

 

[bobs...onGaf]

I was sure this was the case, I just do not have access to an xbox right now.

So his Halo 1 comparison is wrong, and his Halo 2 comparison is unfair. The Halo 2 pistol was never labeled as an accurate weapon.

Grr this annoys me but he did a Halo 2 BR analysis, he just chose to omit it from the HBO post:

http://forums.penny-arcade.com/showpost.php?p=14899284&postcount=387

Louis Wu, you may not agree with us on bloom, but you cant use Fyre's post as 'proof', and front page it!

So am I right in saying spamming the pistol in Halo 1 actually required skill as you had to keep the shot on the head to get the kill? I want to drop this subject, but I just had to get the facts straight, because the nerd in me wont rest while science is blasphemized.

 

[electricpirate]

I was sure this was the case, I just do not have access to an xbox right now.

So his Halo 1 comparison is wrong, and his Halo 2 comparison is unfair. The Halo 2 pistol was never labeled as an accurate weapon.

I thought the CE pistol had a static .25 degree spread while feathering the trigger and a .5 degree spread when it was held down? It definitely has at least some really minor spread,
http://gameroom.mlgpro.com/view/gtsulp1D1QeY94.html

I actually think the comparison between the various games is valid (cept for the H2 pistol part. Really?), but without some reach comparison's it's pretty pointless.

Edit: To give some non-bloom discussion to this topic.

Do you guys think they will ever have dynamic maps like Colossus (H2).

In Slayer game-types there was a bridge between the two bases, in CTF & Bomb it was gone. It was neat that they could change the map dependent on game variation... It would be cool to see this implemented into MM...

Heh, they do it on sword base right now with turning off the lifts.

And couldn't it also be done in forge? IE this element only shows in CTF games? I wasn't much of a forger so I'm not sure, I just remember seeing that somewhere.

 

[Popeck]

Do you guys think they will ever have dynamic maps like Colossus (H2).

In Slayer game-types there was a bridge between the two bases, in CTF & Bomb it was gone. It was neat that they could change the map dependent on game variation... It would be cool to see this implemented into MM...

That sounds pretty much like what Forge can/could do.

 

[Louis Wu]

Louis Wu, you may not agree with us on bloom, but you cant use Fyre's post as 'proof', and front page it!

It's not there as 'proof' - it's the data he put together. If you disagree with it, put together DIFFERENT data. (Bungie believes they made a mistake with the Halo 2 BR - it's why they added a shot spread to the Halo 3 BR. It seems silly to say "well, the Halo 2 BR has perfect accuracy, so clearly the Reach weapons should have that too" - why would Bungie go back to a model they considered broken?)

My biggest problem with the bloom argument is NOT whether you're more or less accurate with a given weapon than you were with that weapon's analogue in a different game... it's that folks are suggesting that the BLOOM is what's causing the inaccuracy, rather than it being what SHOWS the inaccuracy. Bungie could eliminate the bloom indicator, would that make you happy? You didn't seem to be unhappy with the Halo 3 BR - and it works exactly the same way, except without a visual indicator of the spread. If you space your Halo 3 BR shots, you will get a smaller spread - does that somehow mean that not spacing your shots makes you a 'trigger-spammer' or a noob?

 

[Dirtbag]

It's not there as 'proof' - it's the data he put together. If you disagree with it, put together DIFFERENT data. (Bungie believes they made a mistake with the Halo 2 BR - it's why they added a shot spread to the Halo 3 BR. It seems silly to say "well, the Halo 2 BR has perfect accuracy, so clearly the Reach weapons should have that too" - why would Bungie go back to a model they considered broken?)

My biggest problem with the bloom argument is NOT whether you're more or less accurate with a given weapon than you were with that weapon's analogue in a different game... it's that folks are suggesting that the BLOOM is what's causing the inaccuracy, rather than it being what SHOWS the inaccuracy. Bungie could eliminate the bloom indicator, would that make you happy? You didn't seem to be unhappy with the Halo 3 BR - and it works exactly the same way, except without a visual indicator of the spread. If you space your Halo 3 BR shots, you will get a smaller spread - does that somehow mean that not spacing your shots makes you a 'trigger-spammer' or a noob?

Agree or not, how do you feel about crouching increasing accuracy?
Do you feel that has any place in a halo game?

 

[electricpirate]

It's not there as 'proof' - it's the data he put together. If you disagree with it, put together DIFFERENT data. (Bungie believes they made a mistake with the Halo 2 BR - it's why they added a shot spread to the Halo 3 BR. It seems silly to say "well, the Halo 3 BR has perfect accuracy, so clearly the Reach weapons should have that too" - why would Bungie go back to a model they considered broken?)

My biggest problem with the bloom argument is NOT whether you're more or less accurate with a given weapon than you were with that weapon's analogue in a different game... it's that folks are suggesting that the BLOOM is what's causing the inaccuracy, rather than it being what SHOWS the inaccuracy. Bungie could eliminate the bloom indicator, would that make you happy? You didn't seem to be unhappy with the Halo 3 BR - and it works exactly the same way, except without a visual indicator of the spread. If you space your Halo 3 BR shots, you will get a smaller spread - does that somehow mean that not spacing your shots makes you a 'trigger-spammer' or a noob?

I'd love if we could standardize the damn terms, recoil or aim degredation for the actual effect, and bloom as the term for the visual indication thereof.

I actually think the Bloom effect is pretty poorly done though; besides the nearly invisible reticles, the bloom reticle on the DMR doesn't seem well centered or calibrated, as shots seem more consistent then the bloom would indicate, and they seem to hit low in the reticle (though that may be related to the headshot glitch). I also think it needs a mechanic to say, "This shot will hit." A red reticle on steroids if you will,with the dot in the reticle for headshots ala for Halo 2.

 

[bobs...onGaf]

It's not there as 'proof' - it's the data he put together. If you disagree with it, put together DIFFERENT data. (Bungie believes they made a mistake with the Halo 2 BR - it's why they added a shot spread to the Halo 3 BR. It seems silly to say "well, the Halo 3 BR has perfect accuracy, so clearly the Reach weapons should have that too" - why would Bungie go back to a model they considered broken?)

My biggest problem with the bloom argument is NOT whether you're more or less accurate with a given weapon than you were with that weapon's analogue in a different game... it's that folks are suggesting that the BLOOM is what's causing the inaccuracy, rather than it being what SHOWS the inaccuracy. Bungie could eliminate the bloom indicator, would that make you happy? You didn't seem to be unhappy with the Halo 3 BR - and it works exactly the same way, except without a visual indicator of the spread. If you space your Halo 3 BR shots, you will get a smaller spread - does that somehow mean that not spacing your shots makes you a 'trigger-spammer' or a noob?

First off when I talk of bloom I mean the code which exponentially decreases accuracy between shots based on RoF, I very much call this bloom out of ease more than anything. The argument presented by many people including seemingly Fyre was that bloom (or exponential decrease in accuracy) has always existed, it quite clearly hasn’t, not to the the extent it is seen in Reach. Whether this is a good thing or a bad thing is another point entirely, but close range (or at any range) its fair to say that using the Halo 1 pistol behaved differently to the Reach pistol.

Even the H3 BR's spread wasn’t relative to rate of fire, it was simply randomly generated each shot right?

Now whether bloom is a good thing or a bad thing is a totally different point, but I disagree with the fact that:

remember that the biggest thing that's changed is how much feedback you're getting about your inaccuracy.

The biggest thing that’s changed (for better or worse) is the level of innaccuracy, and the fact that the innacuracy is caused by RoF, bloom is only a visual indicator of this new exponential decrease in accuracy system, but this system is very new.

The only reason im being so anal in this is because the argument that bloom always existed before seems very much to be a easy way out of discussing whether it’s a good mechanic for the game itself. When the fact is this is not true, it hasnt always existed.

If you want proof unfortunatly I cant provide it right now, but load up Halo 1 and fire the pistol at the wall from reasonable fighting ranges, do the same with the Halo 2 BR, now go and fire the Halo 3 BR at the wall at varying RoF's. Im sorry I cant provide the screenshots or the videos but ...just try it.

 

[Devin Olsen]

Heh, they do it on sword base right now with turning off the lifts.

You're absolutely correct! My mistake...

And couldn't it also be done in forge? IE this element only shows in CTF games? I wasn't much of a forger so I'm not sure, I just remember seeing that somewhere.

From the limited time I have had with Forge, my answer would be no.

Yes you could place a bridge and create a map variant (Popeck). But what isn't possible is setting that item to be game-type specific.

 

[Louis Wu]

Agree or not, how do you feel about crouching increasing accuracy?
Do you feel that has any place in a halo game?

It seems pretty silly to me, actually. I don't understand where it would come from. Don't know if it belongs in a Halo game, per se - don't know if it belongs in ANY game.

I can't tell if it's really there, though; every time urk comments on it, he's got a winky-face in his post. I can't tell if that means "no, it's not really there" or "yes, it's there, and it amuses the hell out of me that it bothers some of you".

I haven't seen any evidence, for or against, at this point.

 

[Dirtbag]

My 'bloom' gripes

- A closed bloom shot should be more accurate (might have something to do with the headshot box being off though)

- Pistol spam should be even more innacurate then it is, this would probably end up pissing off the spammers more then those on the receiving end as they start to feel like their pistols' are weaker then other peoples'. Would also probably cheer up those in the AR camp.

- Crouching should not increase accuracy. This is the wrong game to introduce this mechanic now. It's the very reason they never thought to introduce cover mechanics. This ain't counterstrike either, the guns aren't lethal enough to merit crouch shooting.

 

[Brolic Gaoler]

It seems pretty silly to me, actually. I don't understand where it would come from. Don't know if it belongs in a Halo game, per se - don't know if it belongs in ANY game.

I can't tell if it's really there, though; every time urk comments on it, he's got a winky-face in his post. I can't tell if that means "no, it's not really there" or "yes, it's there, and it amuses the hell out of me that it bothers some of you".

I haven't seen any evidence, for or against, at this point.

It's in games because realistically taking a knee and aiming steadies your aim. This is also the reason when you go prone in games your aim increases, it's for realism.

That said. I honestly don't think crouch increasing aim in halo has any place. I do think zooming in should though.

 

[Louis Wu]

If you want proof unfortunatly I cant provide it right now, but load up Halo 1 and fire the pistol at the wall from reasonable fighting ranges, do the same with the Halo 2 BR, now go and fire the Halo 3 BR at the wall at varying RoF's. Im sorry I cant provide the screenshots or the videos but ...just try it.

I tried, actually. (Don't really have the time for this, but I tried.)

Unfortunately, Halo 1 doesn't allow ANY multiplayer action without either a second controller or a second Xbox (if you start up in system link, it won't let you into the game until the second xbox signs in, if you start up on split screen it won't let you in without a second controller plugged in). At the moment, my office is mostly packed up into boxes; it flooded last month, and I haven't gotten unpacked yet... so I've only got one controller and one Xbox at hand.

No Halo 1 testing for me right now.

It's in games because realistically taking a knee and aiming steadies your aim. This is also the reason when you go prone in games your aim increases, it's for realism.

That would be fine, I guess, if crouching in Halo: Reach was 'taking a knee' - but it's not, it's crouching (both knees bent, both knees off the floor). Try it right now - you'll find you're FAR less stable in that position than you are standing upright. Your accuracy should DECREASE when crouched, if the visual that goes along with the action is accurate.

 

[Wizpig]

Wait, 2 days and it will all end?
I don't want it to...

 

[electricpirate]

It seems pretty silly to me, actually. I don't understand where it would come from. Don't know if it belongs in a Halo game, per se - don't know if it belongs in ANY game.

I can't tell if it's really there, though; every time urk comments on it, he's got a winky-face in his post. I can't tell if that means "no, it's not really there" or "yes, it's there, and it amuses the hell out of me that it bothers some of you".

I haven't seen any evidence, for or against, at this point.

It exists, another board I'm on did some testing on it, http://www.seasonedgamers.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=72516

Zoom also decreases the amount of spread the guns have.

I dunno, I think the accuracy boost is slight enough that i only use it when I'm making long shots, and I'm not under fire, it ends up being more of a small wrinkle in the combat than a game changing mechanic.

 

[Pete Rock]

On bloom:
..it take Halo dangerously close to a stop 'n' pop shooter, something it's never been. It's really lessened the pace of the multiplayer.

I don't see it, considering "stop 'n' pop" shooters like Counter-Strike add spread based on your movement - hence the "stop" part. Your target spread does not expand while moving in Reach, maybe if it did I could see the direct relationship. My reticle does not expand when I jump, strafe, receive damage or do anything but fire a round down range.

The only reason im being so anal in this is because the argument that bloom always existed before seems very much to be a easy way out of discussing whether it’s a good mechanic for the game itself. When the fact is this is not true, it hasnt always existed.

Feather burst the AR in Halo 3 across the width of Sandbox at a splitscreen Spartan target, now do the same full auto. Go back in Theater and watch the spread, it's obviously tighter on the manual burst fire and you can see the tighter shot grouping and more shield pings down range. It's not enormous, but it is there. Might be more productive in the context of spread than comparing a semiauto pistol with a three round burst rifle, anyway.

 

[squidhands]

You're absolutely correct! My mistake...


From the limited time I have had with Forge, my answer would be no.

Yes you could place a bridge and create a map variant (Popeck). But what isn't possible is setting that item to be game-type specific.

You can set forge objects to spawn for symmetric/asymmetric gametypes, so you could have a bridge not spawn for 1-sided gametypes if you wanted.

 

[bobs...onGaf]

I don't see it, considering "stop 'n' pop" shooters like Counter-Strike add spread based on your movement - hence the "stop" part. Your target spread does not expand while moving in Reach, maybe if it did I could see the direct relationship. My reticle does not expand when I jump, strafe, receive damage or do anything but fire a round down range.


Feather burst the AR in Halo 3 across the width of Sandbox at a splitscreen Spartan target, now do the same full auto. Go back in Theater and watch the spread, it's obviously tighter on the manual burst fire and you can see the tighter shot grouping and more shield pings down range. It's not enormous, but it is there. Might be more productive in the context of spread than comparing a semiauto pistol with a three round burst rifle, anyway.

But with a fully automatic weapon that just makes sense, clearly with a full auto weapon the shots arent always going to go in the same place every shot, also clearly while the weapon spits out less bullets they will come out in a smaller cone of radius.

Ah shame the Halo 1 test didnt work, im actually more interested in how RoF affects the Halo 3 BR personally, I always thought it randomly generated the burst each shot and that Fyre just used incidental evidence in his pics, unfortunatly I wont have my xbox to hand for a little over a week, if anyone can test this for me I will be greatful.

Im pretty sure the Halo 3 BR spread is randomly generated shot to shot.

 

[Brolic Gaoler]

That would be fine, I guess, if crouching in Halo: Reach was 'taking a knee' - but it's not, it's crouching (both knees bent, both knees off the floor). Try it right now - you'll find you're FAR less stable in that position than you are standing upright. Your accuracy should DECREASE when crouched, if the visual that goes along with the action is accurate.

Oh, I understand that completely. I know what it looks like. I even said that I don't think it has a place in halo but you left that out. I was just explaining why it is in games.


Also, I'm well aware of stable firing positions. I was in the Army for 5 years, spent 2 years 3 months in Iraq and was an Infantry Sergeant. :lol

 

[Devin Olsen]

You can set forge objects to spawn for symmetric/asymmetric gametypes, so you could have a bridge not spawn for 1-sided gametypes if you wanted.

So I was entirely incorrect.

I apologize, I really haven't played much with Forge.

 

[Safe Bet]

My friend mentioned this yesterday...

Once damaged sufficiently, jetpacks should explode.

 

[Dirtbag]

I remember them tightening the spread on the Halo 2 BR right after ship.
I'm sure things will still get tweaked, but I don't see them abandoning the bloom. Maybe just make it less/more severe in certain cases.

My friend mentioned this yesterday...

Once damaged sufficiently, jetpacks should explode.

Sounds cool to me, as long as their shields have been popped.

 

[squidhands]

So I was entirely incorrect.

I apologize, I really haven't played much with Forge.

Eh, not entirely. You still can't specifically spawn items for just Capture the Flag or just Oddball. I understand why; due to the relatively small budget it would be easy to "lose" something in a gametype and forget about it. Hopefully the new forge can cater more to the experienced forging crowd and can factor some more dynamic things in.

 

[Pete Rock]

Once damaged sufficiently, jetpacks should explode.

In that same vein, their corpse should be helplessly strewn about the map similar to the Jump-Brute deaths on Tsalvo in H3 as their body spasms on the control interface rather than completely shutting down.

 

[bobs...onGaf]

In that same vein, their corpse should be helplessly strewn about the map similar to the Jump-Brute deaths on Tsalvo in H3 as their body spasms on the control interface rather than completely shutting down.

I actually want to see what a mid air standard assassination looks like, would the enemy go flying?

 

[Gui_PT]

My friend mentioned this yesterday...

Once damaged sufficiently, jetpacks should explode.

I thought they did already

 

[Deadly Cyclone]

In that same vein, their corpse should be helplessly strewn about the map similar to the Jump-Brute deaths on Tsalvo in H3 as their body spasms on the control interface rather than completely shutting down.

In addition, there should be an air assassination where the person doing the assassination pulls out part of the jetpack which makes the person fly out of control and explode.

 

[electricpirate]

My friend mentioned this yesterday...

Once damaged sufficiently, jetpacks should explode.

That explains why I love using the Nerfle/needler against jetpackers so much! :lol

 

[Safe Bet]

Sounds cool to me, as long as their shields have been popped.

Agreed

..as their body spasms on the control interface rather than completely shutting down.

That would make delicious eye candy.

I thought they did already

If they do, I haven't gotten a glimpse of it yet.

That explains why I love using the Nerfle/needler against jetpackers so much! :lol

The needler is an awesome fly swatter.

 

[Wizpig]

Will I still be able to play on Wednesday, 8 PM GMT+2?
Basically, three hours from now - but on the last Beta day.

 

[Thagomizer]

People really have a problem with crouching making you slightly more accurate? Really? It doesn't even come into play unless you're sniping or shooting at very long distances, because crouching in mid/close range combat in Halo just makes you a stationary target and thus an easy kill.

 

[Pappasman]

People really have a problem with crouching making you slightly more accurate? Really? It doesn't even come into play unless you're sniping or shooting at very long distances, because crouching in mid/close range combat in Halo just makes you a stationary target and thus an easy kill.

It shouldn't come into play at any range, especially if sniping.

 

[The Librarian]

I don't see it, considering "stop 'n' pop" shooters like Counter-Strike add spread based on your movement - hence the "stop" part. Your target spread does not expand while moving in Reach, maybe if it did I could see the direct relationship. My reticle does not expand when I jump, strafe, receive damage or do anything but fire a round down range.

I said it takes it close to, not that it is.

Part of the reason I don't like bloom is because it's frustrates me, I suck at it, and I don't think it's fun. The most fun guns to fire in Halo: Reach are the AR, the PR, the rockets and the Pro Pipe.

 

[Thagomizer]

It shouldn't come into play at any range, especially if sniping.

I haven't seen any reason why it shouldn't. It's not like you are hopping around when sniping, anyway, and all it does is make the reticle shrink slightly faster.

But then again, this is HaloGAF, where people FREAKED THE FUCK OUT when the Sniper's firing interval was increased by 2/10's of a second.

 

[-PXG-]

So yeah....

I was playing Invasion as an Elite. During phase 3 the game starts to lag and then...poof...black screen. 30 seconds later, I respawn, with an AR and the Scout armor abilty. Again, I was playing as an Elite. Oh, and apparently, there is a glitch that allows you move and shoot while having the armor lock invulnerability on. :/

 

[Son of Godzilla]

The reticule expansion would be so much more appreciated if the bullet spread made any sense at all. The pistol should be able to utterly beast somebody at close range, but it isn't. It feels just as innaccurate to spasm the trigger up close as it does at distance.

 

[Pappasman]

I haven't seen any reason why it shouldn't. It's not like you are hopping around when sniping, anyway, and all it does is make the reticle shrink slightly faster.

But then again, this is HaloGAF, where people FREAKED THE FUCK OUT when the Sniper's firing interval was increased by 2/10's of a second.

I like being able to aim with accuracy while in the air from a jump or man cannon. Constant accuracy is something that I like about halo.

 

[Thagomizer]

I like being able to aim with accuracy while in the air from a jump or man cannon. Constant accuracy is something that I like about halo.

...and? You can still fire with just as much accuracy in a man cannon as when you are running around.

EDIT: I seen what you are saying, and I still don't see how it matters. Nobody even noticed that crouching makes the reticle shrink faster until Urk pointed it out, and even then, it's just a measure of degrees. In some situations, crouching would actually harm you, such as when your opponent is firing back or you need to strafe.

 

[electricpirate]

I like being able to aim with accuracy while in the air from a jump or man cannon. Constant accuracy is something that I like about halo.

That hasn't changed either, you can crouch, and get a small bit of an accuracy boost, that doesn't change the ability to whip off a clutch mancannon no scope.

Hell, I don't think the first shot is even affected by position, it's just the aim degradation reset speed as far as I see.

 

[Subtervotion]

So is today the last day for Arena or was that yesterday?

 

[Pappasman]

...and? You can still fire with just as much accuracy in a man cannon as when you are running around.

EDIT: I seen what you are saying, and I still don't see how it matters. Nobody even noticed that crouching makes the reticle shrink faster until Urk pointed it out, and even then, it's just a measure of degrees. In some situations, crouching would actually harm you, such as when your opponent is firing back or you need to strafe.

oh I misunderstood, I thought it affected bullet spread, not reticle reset speed. :lol nevermind then.

 

[Spasm]

I'm fully expecting zoom-sway, and a 'hold breath' button for the final game.

 

[squidhands]

So is today the last day for Arena or was that yesterday?

Wait, what? I was under the impression that it would all be turned off simultaneously. :-(

I'm fully expecting zoom-sway, and a 'hold breath' button for the final game.

boo. Least favorite part of Splinter Cell.

 

[Schmitty]

So is anyone else having trouble uploading to their file shares?