No remakes.
Let's move forward.
Maps can take cues from old ones but tributes should be discreet at most.
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Halo: Reach |OT7| What are They to Say Now?
- Thread starter The Librarian
- Start date
No remakes.
Let's move forward.
Maps can take cues from old ones but tributes should be discreet at most.
"No remakes! ... Well, if you do, base it off Valhalla!"
Valhalla had a terrible concept of one team getting an easy upper hand quickly. After the initial bum rush, the team controlling the middle hill essentially controls the map. If they're doing to do a middle hill concept, base it off Containment's large base structure, quick exit teleporter (which is interactive with the base itself), caves, and underneath bridge. It's superior in every facet.
Remakes only hurt if they're changed too much: see Last Resort. True remakes like Heretic and ones that have changed but for the updated gameplay, i.e. Coagulation and Warlock, are absolutely accepted.
Last Resort had too many issues that did not exist in Zanzibar/Halo 2 version.
- the expanded base, which was unnecessary
- the inclusion of equipment
- the opened area in Camp Froman
- gate was basically shelved in place of a tiny blockade, which did not stop incoming enemies, only vehicles
The Librarian
Banned
I'd really, really like to understand 343's internal justification for including MP achievements like these (hell, MP achievements at all).
343, if I need an opponent to stick me, then I need to kill them with their own sticky, what do you think I'm going to do for the game? I'm going to get few kills (if any), thereby ruining the experience for the people actually playing the game.
343, if I need an opponent to stick me, then I need to kill them with their own sticky, what do you think I'm going to do for the game? I'm going to get few kills (if any), thereby ruining the experience for the people actually playing the game.
That's not what I said.
The hill was never the problem. It was the laser.
I think Tempest pretty much solved the problem of the Valhalla middle hill.
The laser wasn't a problem on Valhalla, it was the fact that everyone started with BRs, so all you had to do was take the hill and rain down on people that had to look up to engage you, especially if they had the seaside base. If you tried to push them off you just gave them more BR ammo from dying.
The BR start made it so there was no point to taking the side paths, which ruined the entire gating setup, which defeated the point of any team strategy and the reduce Valhalla to "take center hill, win game". Even in AR start there are BRs that spawn on the hill. You don't put range weapons on the high ground, because you want players to actually leave the high ground to resupply (what I call a resupply or weapon loop)
Tempest solves this problem with Reach DMR starts by making the middle hill a bowl (essentially), cutting down the sight lines and making it more dangerous to hang out there. Then of course, Bungie had to go shit up the map with sidelocked spawns, so now the map is extremely spawncampable. Two steps forward, one step back.
Yes it was.
The laser stood pat there, absolutely, but snipers were able to tee off with ease on the opposing base, and when a team has that much of the upper hand in the terrain, it's terribly easy to have control of that one half of the map.
ElzarTheBam
Member
I'm gonna agree here, not only snipers, but a team watching pelican and the turret side, all with BR's, became unstoppable.
Remakes are driven by nostalgia, fan service. It was ok for Bungie since it was them updating their maps and offering them to their loyal followers game after game.
But I want new weapons, new settings, new gameplay.
5 MP maps, 1 invasion, 2 firefights with customization for each and complimenting playlists options is good enough for a not so competitive player like me at launch time.
Oh! and a 6 hours campaign ala Reach won't cut it bitch.
I'm interseted more in killing and surviving while having fun rather than looking at the scenery.
Shhhhhhhhhhhhh lol
The Librarian
Banned
Nope. Without the laser there's less incentive to hold it and it will exchange hands several times as it is much easier to retake the middle because of the availability of vehicles and nobody stays there for too long, further increasing the incentive to use the side paths (in addition to the incentives already there, like shotgun and equipment).
Edit: And even in matchmaking with the laser, it wasn't the determining factor you're making it out to be. The hill is more important with the laser, yes, but did it ruin the map? From time to time. But not too often.
forunner interactive architecture for MP or invasion with major changes based upon players activating stuff on at least 1 map or die.
squidhands
Member
So I played Ridgeline for the first time this weekend and it was a pleasant surprise. Nice to see some decent maps for Big Team Battle finally. Now if people on my team could remember how to properly play CTF (hint: it's NOT Slayer Unlimited; don't leave me all alone to defend the fucking flag), I think a good game might actually happen.
Deadly Cyclone
Pride of Iowa State
Bring back Terminal!
Can't they do new + interactive?
The Librarian
Banned
Ridgeline really struggles with the DMR's 3x zoom, but it's so much better than, say, Hemorrhage. I was having the same problem with Ridgeline earlier this morning. I think I was the only one defending the flag.
Haven't had too much of a chance to play on Breakneck yet.
Hypertrooper
Member
What's the problem with it? Because I don't have it.
Now I wanna play Halo 3 MP. GG
BlueScrote
Member
You think 5 MP Maps, 1 invasion map, and 2 firefight maps would be acceptable at launch?
squidhands
Member
The slow-ass shield recharge makes it nearly impossible to be a lone defender against more than two people unless you're able to stick their vehicle. Didn't really see a problem with the DMR actually; there seems to be enough ground cover to be able to get away from someone in an elevated position. You're only screwed if you try and hoof it along the riverbanks.
Jetpack is definitely the AA of choice for Breakneck, but as far as I've been able to tell it's not terribly gamebreaking for the map. Ditch the AR for a Needler or a Plasma Pistol and you're pretty safe from any loljetpacker. In my limited experience, of course. That horrid Banshee needs to go, though. Now or even sooner.
Not sure if anyone checked out the "eSports and the fighting game community" thread on the Gaming side, but I found this part interesting.
Wonder if there are any videos of the booing out there.
I don't follow MLG much anymore but I wonder if the same thing will happen with the MLG Halo community when it gets less attention than another game like SC2.
Wonder if there are any videos of the booing out there.
I don't follow MLG much anymore but I wonder if the same thing will happen with the MLG Halo community when it gets less attention than another game like SC2.
Gabotron ES
Member
And I still have my Live membership suspended for no reason, thanks a lot MS. They didn't even
bother to email me explaining me this bullshit.
Needs moar Invasion maps.
How does SC2 help Halo stay in?
Zeouterlimits
Member
Hypertrooper
Member
Pretty much this.
Shields recharge WAY too slow in Reach; in the time it takes them to start recharging, and the recharge itself. Halo 3 was refreshing in this when I played yesterday.
I would be royally pissed off if they were to launch Halo 4 with five MP maps. That is a comically low number. I think eleven is a sweet spot: 3 BTB/large maps (two symmetrical, one asymmetrical), 2 mid-size (built for BTB and also 4v4; one symmetrical, one asymmetrical), and the rest are the arena, symmetrically based, and also a select number of one-sided maps that are built for objective games.
The video proves nothing but two coordinated teams from a forum and playing to have fun. One team is easily capable of spawn camping another on that map due to the hill. It happened every single game in that map, no matter Slayer, Snipers, or CTF. Snipers and Battle Rifles ruled the center, not just the laser. A map like Containment had much, much less of that because of the width of the canyon and the structure separating the sightlines between the center hill and base.
And more maps definitely need interactive buttons in them.
Well, I don't know what the MLG viewership is like for each game, but IIRC, people enjoyed watching past MLG Halo 2-3 much more than MLG Reach. What I meant was that, assuming MLG SC2 is incredibly popular compared to Halo, would MLG eventually dedicate more time and space to SC2 matches than Halo.
I suppose. Of course, I though MLG Halo was a lot better in 2005 than now, before the torrent of Dr. Pepper commercials and fluff interviews so I don't think they're free from making bad decisions again.
Like I previously said, I don't know enough about MLG to provide statistical evidence and such, so this is all out of curiosity.
That makes sense. I'm just wondering if the decrease in Halo viewership due to Reach will continue on until MLG doesn't find Halo profitable and dedicates less resources to it until H4.
lybertyboy
Thinks the Evil Empire is just misunderstood.
Sent you a PM. I'll look into it.
I think I'm done paying for maps I rarely play on.
A map = an environment/ a mood. Then changes (size, structure, weapon dispersion) are applied to it according to player numbers, gametypes.
Well, 5 is a random number, could have been 7 or 8 but i'd rather fewer, tweakable maps rather than tons of underdevelopped maps.
1 invasion map as I envision this gametype going the very epic way, even including some "cinematic" stuff to up the ante, 16 players, vehicles and big weapons in numbers sufficient to make it seeem it's WAR.
BlueScrote
Member
I don't think I've ever even played Invasion Spire, it comes up so infrequently. I really feel like invasion got shafted in reach. I really like the idea behind it, but the slayer variant tends to get voted in the playlist.
Considering they could probably just lift the geometry/design from older maps, 5 would be unacceptably low.
While I want them to make some new maps, I want the best old ones as well.
Space Marine had 5 maps... everyone complained there were way too few maps from day 1.
Also, invasion maps should be built from BTB maps, and definitely not the other way around, if they even do it again.
Gabotron ES
Member
Are you serious? It's weird because I find myself playing Spire the whole time, people also rarely vote for Invasion Slayer or Skirmish.
:lol I'm not joking.
Yeah, we got it a ton a couple days ago.
The non-slayer Invasion gametypes should definitely get higher weighting though. And delete Shotty Snipers from Actionsack. What the hell is that gametype doing in there.
I'd like invasion to be its own sweet little thing. Massive, aggressive and strictly objective oriented to oblige cooperation betweeen all team players. "Cinematic" moments would compliment players for their difficult but necessary cooperation.
I don't care if they lift geometry or get their homeworks done by their big brothers.
I just consider offering lots of maps as a conciliatory move, like saying they can't all be good so, here, have some choice which is how I feel about Reach. So much potential, so little done.
I want good maps, not good intentions.
maybe I'm old and getting nostalgic but i've played hundreds if not thousands of hours of Super Mario Kart and Super Bomberman 2 as well as a fuck lot of Battle mode in MK64 and limited choices made enjoy the gameplay more than the surroundings and helped me fine tune my moves more than force me remember lots of emplacements.
One thing (not sure if it was the community, or Bungie) that I'm sad to not see pan out was carved out versions of the Invasion maps being used for other playlists. I know a few people on GAF, HBO, etc have made these, but either the work on them peters out or nobody wants to test them.
I'm still disappointed that Headlong didn't have official support for Invasion, since having access to be able to actually do animations and stuff would have added a pretty nice layer of immersion.
It'd make my day to see something like an Invasion Map Pack, since Breakpoint shows that a map made specifically for Invasion (with the rest of the game as a known factor) can be an awesome experience. I'd also expect that map pack to be set up for carve outs for other playlists. It'd probably would help if Invasion could have a Slayer phase.
Interestingly a problem with the Invasion maps in BTB is all the dead and unused space which is only really used in the Invasion gametype. I say interesting since Halo 2 was supposed to have Invasion, and so was 3, and Last Resort has a bunch of dead area on the beach and Sandtrap has a bunch of dead area as well in normal gameplay. Both were Invasion maps. Perhaps any Invasion maps should have big Forge buildings (not basic shapes, but actual buildings) that they can place for normal gameplay to make that part of the map interesting.
What it kind of boils down to is that Invasion is an Asymmetric Map on Steroids, where the developers and the community want maps more capable of supporting most other gametypes. The problem comes from trying to play symmetric modes on them. You wouldn't try to play 2 Flag on Zanzibar or High Ground, so gametypes like Stockpile on Spire are just headscratchers. It also doesn't help that some of the 1 Flag and 1 Bomb setups are just weird (Spire would seem to make more sense on the first phase area instead of that weird sideways setup in the second phase, and Breakpoint's setup is just wtf for 1 Flag and Bomb, and let's not even talk about Boneyard's 1 Flag/1 Bomb setup).
tl;dr Make Invasion map, then do a Certain Affinity and make extensive Forge capabilities to turn it into a normal BTB map (blocking away dead areas, etc)
BlueScrote
Member
I'll jump in that playlist tonight and see what comes up. I haven't touched it in a fair amount of time so maybe my memory is failing me.
The Librarian
Banned
It amuses me that you're criticizing Valhalla for enabling snipers to control the map, when the problem was just as, if not more prevalent, on Coagulation/Hemorrhage, but I've never seen you level the same complaint against those maps. Battle Rifles were ineffective for controlling the map from the hill because of the weapon's limited range and its spread. There's no way you can effectively kill your opponents from the hill in either base with the BR. Sniper rifles and vehicles spawned at either base, so you could take out the sniper on the hill with either choice. There's no way you can hold the hill indefinitely with only sniper rifles and BRs.
"It happened in every single game in that map, no matter Slayer, Snipers [lol] or CTF." No it didn't. You're lying through your teeth, and I can't figure out why.
I play a lot of Invasion because it's the only playlist that's fun to play without a party, but it has a lot of gamebreaking flaws that were never fixed and never will get fixed
Elites spawning with basically no weapons the first round
Loadouts - Every third round literally becomes swords vs shotguns
Overabundance of power weapons
2 maps (breakpoint doesn't show up)
banshee respawning after 30 seconds
Invasion slayer being absurdly unbalanced
Spire is literally a fight for the banshee
Invasion was never adjusted at all. Bungie should have released Invasion Pro, Spartans only, DMRS/Spint only. Oh well.
Elites spawning with basically no weapons the first round
Loadouts - Every third round literally becomes swords vs shotguns
Overabundance of power weapons
2 maps (breakpoint doesn't show up)
banshee respawning after 30 seconds
Invasion slayer being absurdly unbalanced
Spire is literally a fight for the banshee
Invasion was never adjusted at all. Bungie should have released Invasion Pro, Spartans only, DMRS/Spint only. Oh well.
You can't control a map with the H3 BR, it just isn't accurate enough at range.
The DMR is incredibly more effective at cross-mapping.
Valhalla wasn't nearly as easily controlled by snipers as garbage like Hemorrhage with jetpacks/camo.
squidhands
Member
If the gametype returns for 4, and no tears shed from me if it doesn't, the bold is a must. Invasion Slayer is one of the most worthless and redundant gametypes ever pushed into Halo matchmaking.
Bungie did not impress me at all with Reach's default maps, with two that I don't grimace at when chosen. Fingers crossed that 343 can give us some quality NEW maps that don't pretend to work for every gametype.