"Terminal and Turf were cut for consideration for the anniversary map pack because we needed maps that worked for multiple gametypes"
Demands of HD game + limited manpower = very hard environment for single-use maps to survive in.
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Halo: Reach |OT7| What are They to Say Now?
- Thread starter The Librarian
- Start date
"Terminal and Turf were cut for consideration for the anniversary map pack because we needed maps that worked for multiple gametypes"
Demands of HD game + limited manpower = very hard environment for single-use maps to survive in.
BlueScrote
Member
Wouln't `Invasion Pro` basically boil down to something like UT99's assault mode? I wouldn't mind that at all, but I kind of like having an asymmetrical team gametype in halo.
The Librarian
Banned
Turf and Terminal were designed for specific gametypes in mind but that doesn't mean they were unsuited for gametypes like Slayer. Hell, slayer can work on just about every map if you alter the weapon spawns and such. Right out of the gate they're already good for two gametypes. With that mindset it could be more likely than you're thinking. I dunno. I don't know anything about game development.
squidhands
Member
I remember that quote, and I would argue that both of those maps could easily fit into the Headlong category of maps that shine at a specific gametype but still play well with just about all others (edit:dammit Dax), unlike most of Reach's default fare. I'm certainly not advocating single-use maps, I guess what I'm saying is I would like a better approach to Halo 4's map design; one that didn't approach every map with "let's make it adequate for every gametype" and end up just being a bland, forgettable thing
Turf worked for Slayer.
Terminal was ehh. Lots of hiding.
Headlong is crap for Slayer.
The thing about symmetrical OSFA maps is that if 2 flag works on it, 1 flag automatically works on it. Two gametypes for the price of one. Look at how successful Gears is. Literally every single map in that game is "make half the map, mirror for other half". I would like to see more gametype-specific maps but with the time limits of shipping for disc in the HD era and trying to justify to players why they should buy your DLC pack, they become an even harder sell.
Hypertrooper
Member
I don't agree with this. There is big difference between a map designed for Slayer, Objective or Objective/Slayer. If a map is designed for One-Bomb/CTF Gametypes, one slayer team will always have a disadvantage. You can't fix that with "alter the weapon spawns and such." Do you think Breakpoint, Boneyard or Spire are fun to play in a Slayer gametype? No. The best thing is if the map is designed for both, Slayer and Objective.
squidhands
Member
Breakpoint would work well for Slayer if you blocked off the first half of the map and kept people from the mountain pass.
The fighting game community has beef with MLG that goes way back. Apparently MLG sponsored an EVO and some players never got paid. Sundance did an interview about it and challenged those supposedly never got paid to come out with proof and he'll pay them. I never saw any players come out.
Also, the fighting game community can be so great and so frustrating at the same time. They want to maintain the underground scene but I feel like they pass up on opportunities to expand. I think a lot of them think MLG will ruin the smaller events but I don't see it. I see it adding to the scene.
Also, this Halo vs SC2 thing goes both ways. I've heard Halo players bitter that Halo isn't top dog anymore. Hating on SC2 out of jealousy. But I've also heard SC2 fans talking shit to Halo fans because they're number 1 now.
I love Halo, SC2 and fighters so I want to see them do well.
Also, the fighting game community can be so great and so frustrating at the same time. They want to maintain the underground scene but I feel like they pass up on opportunities to expand. I think a lot of them think MLG will ruin the smaller events but I don't see it. I see it adding to the scene.
Also, this Halo vs SC2 thing goes both ways. I've heard Halo players bitter that Halo isn't top dog anymore. Hating on SC2 out of jealousy. But I've also heard SC2 fans talking shit to Halo fans because they're number 1 now.
I love Halo, SC2 and fighters so I want to see them do well.
Dang. This makes me want to see Spartan vs. Spartan Invasion.
SvE slayer from the beta, make it return.
ncsuDuncan
Member
So, to further complicate my wishlist
Halo 4
Normal - $60
Heroic - $90 (Art book, Making-of DVD, Season Pass)
Legendary - $120 (Heroic extras, plus a Master Chief statue and a Nylund novella)
Disc 1 - Campaign, Firefight (8 maps), Theater
Disc 2 - Multiplayer, Forge, Theater
Maps: (no full remakes, just spirtual ones)
Small (2v2 - 4v4)
2 symmetrical arena (midship, warlock)
2 symmetrical 2-base (beaver creek, sanctuary)
1 asymmetrical slayer (lockout)
Medium (4v4 - 6v6)
1 symmetrical arena (the pit)
1 asymmetrical slayer (ivory tower)
2 1-sided objective (zanzibar, high ground)
Large (6v6 - 8v8)
2 symmetrical 2-base (valhalla, avalanche)
2 1-sided objective (headlong, relic)
That's 13 maps, not counting Firefight. If there is still Invasion, it would be carved out of the BTB maps.
I hope Forge is more of a full level editor this time, but if not then add two unique Forge World canvases and bring it up to 15. Don't try to shoehorn a premade map onto them like Pinnacle and Hemorrhage, just build versatile peices first and later make an example map.
Halo 4 Season Pass - Four DLC packs for $30 ($10 each if purchased separately)
(S - Small, M - Medium, L - Large)
3 competitive maps (S, M, L)
3 competitive maps (S, M, M) + 1 Firefight map
3 competitive maps (M, M, L)
3 competitive maps (S, S, L) + 1 Firefight map
Then later on:
Halo 4: ODST $40
Disc 1 - Campaign expansion, slightly smaller than ODST. A sidestory that bridges Halo 4 and 5. New terminals. The 2 DLC firefight maps, plus 4 new maps. Original 8 not included.
Disc 2 - Halo 4 multiplayer with all of the disc maps, DLC maps, and 3 new ones (S, M, L).
Last two map packs:
A - The 3 competitive maps from H4:ODST ($10 - Not part of the season pass.)
B - The 4 firefight maps from H4:ODST ($10 - Not part of the season pass.)
Final Count:
14 Firefight
10 Small
10 Medium
8 Large
(So 28 not counting any Forge canvases.)
Come at me bros.
Halo 4
Normal - $60
Heroic - $90 (Art book, Making-of DVD, Season Pass)
Legendary - $120 (Heroic extras, plus a Master Chief statue and a Nylund novella)
Disc 1 - Campaign, Firefight (8 maps), Theater
Disc 2 - Multiplayer, Forge, Theater
Maps: (no full remakes, just spirtual ones)
Small (2v2 - 4v4)
2 symmetrical arena (midship, warlock)
2 symmetrical 2-base (beaver creek, sanctuary)
1 asymmetrical slayer (lockout)
Medium (4v4 - 6v6)
1 symmetrical arena (the pit)
1 asymmetrical slayer (ivory tower)
2 1-sided objective (zanzibar, high ground)
Large (6v6 - 8v8)
2 symmetrical 2-base (valhalla, avalanche)
2 1-sided objective (headlong, relic)
That's 13 maps, not counting Firefight. If there is still Invasion, it would be carved out of the BTB maps.
I hope Forge is more of a full level editor this time, but if not then add two unique Forge World canvases and bring it up to 15. Don't try to shoehorn a premade map onto them like Pinnacle and Hemorrhage, just build versatile peices first and later make an example map.
Halo 4 Season Pass - Four DLC packs for $30 ($10 each if purchased separately)
(S - Small, M - Medium, L - Large)
3 competitive maps (S, M, L)
3 competitive maps (S, M, M) + 1 Firefight map
3 competitive maps (M, M, L)
3 competitive maps (S, S, L) + 1 Firefight map
Then later on:
Halo 4: ODST $40
Disc 1 - Campaign expansion, slightly smaller than ODST. A sidestory that bridges Halo 4 and 5. New terminals. The 2 DLC firefight maps, plus 4 new maps. Original 8 not included.
Disc 2 - Halo 4 multiplayer with all of the disc maps, DLC maps, and 3 new ones (S, M, L).
Last two map packs:
A - The 3 competitive maps from H4:ODST ($10 - Not part of the season pass.)
B - The 4 firefight maps from H4:ODST ($10 - Not part of the season pass.)
Final Count:
14 Firefight
10 Small
10 Medium
8 Large
(So 28 not counting any Forge canvases.)
Come at me bros.
This sounds far too reasonable.
You must pick a side, and let the anger grow within you!
Also, my 150lb stereo system for my tv has arrived, pics soon.
On the flip side, maps like Zanzibar and Terminal were fine for Slayer (I thought Turf was rad for anything, they made a real gem there). They were no Midship, but they also weren't insultingly bad like Boneyard Slayer is. The key is giving the team that spawns in the attacking base enough tools to still be as defensible as the team that spawns in the defending base. The difference is that Boneyard and Spire are garbage maps, and Breakpoint is a pretty mediocre jack-of-all-trades attempt. It can be done well, but it hasn't been common lately.
Zeouterlimits
Member
Definitely is on both sides. So ridiculous.
The Librarian
Banned
I think all of this would be lovely, but I don't think we'll be getting all of this. I'd love for a side Halo game to expand upon the hub world of ODST (better if Halo 4 did it though).
Shit, reddit's on to me.
Have the Waypoint forums been Runtime Erroding for anyone else? Happens if I'm logged in or not.
Have the Waypoint forums been Runtime Erroding for anyone else? Happens if I'm logged in or not.
Would it be entirely out of the question to release every damn Halo map ever made. Bump textures to HD. Not even if that's too much work.
Would it be too much to do that for Halo 4? Make new maps, play on not as pretty old ones?
Disc space problem? No problem, make the DLC. Free with pre-order or launch games or some shit. Or sell them for sub $15 (but free is better)
Or will this break the immersion and continuity of multiplayer? Playing on last gen maps built with old tech etc. Because its multiplayer, no one cares about all that fluff in multiplayer.
Would it be too much to do that for Halo 4? Make new maps, play on not as pretty old ones?
Disc space problem? No problem, make the DLC. Free with pre-order or launch games or some shit. Or sell them for sub $15 (but free is better)
Or will this break the immersion and continuity of multiplayer? Playing on last gen maps built with old tech etc. Because its multiplayer, no one cares about all that fluff in multiplayer.
lol is that you who gave yourself the Community Cartographer title?
Anyway I'm sure this ridiculous shit isn't fixed yet so tell Shishka to close this gap
http://www.bungie.net/Stats/Reach/FileDetails.aspx?fid=21279185&player=jelyk
Probably doable, but given that not all the maps were well-received or memorable, remaking every map just to do it would probably end up a waste of time and resources.
The jetpacking under the map reminds me that I want a map based on Shattered Horizon's space combat.
Bahhahahahhaha.
ncsuDuncan
Member
It isn't as simple as importing the old map file into the new engine. There's a lot of overhead work that has to be done on every map.
Work saved by remaking old maps with shitty graphics:
- Art design
- Level design
Work still required:
- Playtesting
- Bug fixing
- Console certification
- Stats/backend server stuff
- Marketing
If you're going through all that trouble you might as well just put in the extra art design work and put out a more appealing product.
You have to consider that consumers will be less likely to buy a remade map with ugly old graphics than a shiny new remake. I know it sounds crazy, but some people actually make their DLC purchase decision based on how pretty the new maps look, even if only at a subconscious level.
the fuck with reused maps!
Do you guys want a 6 hour long game and some shitty maps ala Reach?
I'd rather have 12 hours of single player time and fewer but distinct maps. Reach's package and management has burned me on map packs.
It's not 2005 anymore, all of the big franchises have MP and some have valid ones. Am I expected to just play Halo, really?
Then, if not, why should i bother with gazillions of options rather than just be offered stuff that matters, stuff that bears a distinctive signature and makes me want to come back or buy some more?
Do you guys want a 6 hour long game and some shitty maps ala Reach?
I'd rather have 12 hours of single player time and fewer but distinct maps. Reach's package and management has burned me on map packs.
It's not 2005 anymore, all of the big franchises have MP and some have valid ones. Am I expected to just play Halo, really?
Then, if not, why should i bother with gazillions of options rather than just be offered stuff that matters, stuff that bears a distinctive signature and makes me want to come back or buy some more?
They actually had [COMMUNITY CARTOGRAPHER] next to my name on r/halo but they redid all their css and it's gone. And it looked stupid that there was FyreWulff [FyreWulff] above posts so I changed my flair to Community Cartographer. Because I do most of my postin' there collecting maps.
Each time things change around I get people thinking that I'm like, stealing maps or something. Either way, thanks for that clip, I'll add that to my report when I wake up tonight because hopefully by then the Waypoint forums will be working.
I can't tell what is going on in RTS games as a spectator sport. I can tell something amazing is happening, but not what. FPS and fighting games are more entertaining to watch as a spectator, IMO, but that's a personal preference.
Fighting games, FPS games and DOTA are the only things I can follow, tried watching Starcraft 2 but my mind melted.
ncsuDuncan
Member
"Zing" is the only sound you'll hear after the tinnitus sets in.
Awesome system dude.
Yep. I love watching all of it. EVO is fun (stop me from buying an arcade stick), GSL is fun (HotS pre-ordered!), and...well, actually, I don't find any of the FPS games on MLG right now fun to watch, but I like watching competitive FPS as well.
As for SC2 being difficult to watch, well, it is, if you've never played it. Once you play the campaign or the challenges, and understand what the unit purposes are, you'll start to see the big picture, the changes the players are making to their resource gathering in order to counter what they think their opponent is doing. I think the commentators do a great job explaining what's happening though, they're a tier above anything the other genres offer.
What a wasted opportunity that game was.
BlueScrote
Member
I would imagine that remaking maps in the new engine would still be a considerable amount of work.
I am curious though as to the time split between designing a map, putting together the assets for it, actually building it, then play testing it.
Hypertrooper
Member
Out of those three genres, I find that I enjoy fighting game commentary the most enjoyable, but probably because it's the most humorous and relaxed.
MLG Halo commentary comes off as a little boring. Informative, maybe, but I never found it really enjoyable. The few streams of SC2 commentary I've seen definitely seem to be great in the quality of information and what's going on on screen, but it does require a little more knowledge of the game than fighters and FPS.
BlueScrote
Member
What do reused maps have to do with a 6 hour game and shitty maps? If they are reusing old maps, chances are they are maps that the community loves.
99% of Halogaf has put in significantly more time into MP than SP, which is why people would rather there be a focus on the MP sandbox and its maps than a SP campaign.
Steelyuhas
Member
Agreed. It was amazing to see Breakpoint as I realized that the Invasion gametype was actually pretty decent (still has some definite issues), but just that Boneyard and Spire are terrible. I find Invasion to be a ton of fun on Breakpoint.
Another thing is to have maps like Headlong that obviously work well as an assym BTB map and an Invasion map.
I definitely feel that designing a map for a certain gametype is the way to go. Just look at the maps we have. Maps that are clearly designed for a gametype seem to be almost universally better maps for not only that gametype, but several others as well instead of these maps that they try to design for every gametype and they end up not working very well for any of them.
thezerofire
Banned
We got fewer maps with Reach. Didn't work out so well.
Out of those three genres, I find that I enjoy fighting game commentary the most enjoyable, but probably because it's the most humorous and relaxed.
MLG Halo commentary comes off as a little boring. Informative, maybe, but I never found it really enjoyable. The few streams of SC2 commentary I've seen definitely seem to be great in the quality of information and what's going on on screen, but it does require a little more knowledge of the game than fighters and FPS.
I love James Chen, <3 Cammy. My problem with the fighting game commentary is the slang. There's a lot of like, inside jokes and stuff that I just don't know what it means. Also, frame data talk is boring as shit. The games themselves are easy to follow. Halo commentary is ok but it's obvious that the game needs help to make it an easier spectator sport. It's hard to follow 8 screens at a time and you always see commentators missing big plays and tripping over their words. I do love the Astro Listen in though, StarCraft 2 commentating is probably the funniest. I've only recently gotten into it but watching GSL and NASL was a pleasure. Day9 and his brother are pretty damn funny and entertaining.
I'll snap another, better, picture after I manage to get it all hooked up.
Still waiting on a shelf for above the TV tho, xbox should look pretty cool up there with the center and stuff.
In an RTS an observer has a much easier time focusing in on a big battle happening, there is usually significant build-up as 2 armies approach, giving them observer ample time to be in prime position. Halo, or an fps really, has a harder time because you and your team are likely to all be moving around the map, having small battles yourselves.
I enjoy FPS more than RTS, but an RTS with a good observer and good commentary is a lot easier to watch.
Still waiting on a shelf for above the TV tho, xbox should look pretty cool up there with the center and stuff.
In an RTS an observer has a much easier time focusing in on a big battle happening, there is usually significant build-up as 2 armies approach, giving them observer ample time to be in prime position. Halo, or an fps really, has a harder time because you and your team are likely to all be moving around the map, having small battles yourselves.
I enjoy FPS more than RTS, but an RTS with a good observer and good commentary is a lot easier to watch.
The Librarian
Banned
I think in this way it's why Halo 2's matchmaking experience was, on the whole, better than 3's or Reach's because if you design a map around a gametype, you're going to feature that map in matchmaking with that gametype almost all the time. Less headaches in trying to figure out how much weight to give to individual gametypes for each map.
Edit:
It's like:
"Eh. Don't know how much weight I should give to Sandtrap Slayer over Sandtrap CTF...." Whereas for Terminal it'd be more like, "Okay, Terminal CTF is to be weighted far more than Terminal Slayer."
Zeouterlimits
Member
It's weird, could be just the people I've been around, but they have been more willing to watch commentated Starcraft more than Reach/SF4.
SC2 is way more of a spectator sport in my experience.
ElRenoRaven
Member
Now see that I can get behind. Season passes I'm fine with. Those just let you preorder your dlc if you will for less while lettting you buy it all separately if you want also.
Steelyuhas
Member
Agreed completely. Hopefully 343 is doing this for Halo 4.
More importantly, a season pass is a guarantee of support. Most publishers will let you know up front how much content you're actually paying for - the Forza pack was revealed to be six add-ons, the Gears 3 pack was for the first four DLC packs, etc. Compare that to Reach. We have no idea what the plans for support are, and never have. It's nice to know something else is coming.
Tha Robbertster
Member
I'm gonna get Halo Glasslands tonight for Sinterklaas, really hyped for reading it tonight.
So since today is Sinterklaas' birthday, does anyone want a female masterchief avatar code?
So since today is Sinterklaas' birthday, does anyone want a female masterchief avatar code?
ncsuDuncan
Member
What I like about Season Passes is that is should increase the number of players that have all of the DLC. This might make playlist management a little easier, since you could divide the population into two categories:
No DLC
All DLC
Game launches - No launch DLC = Everyone on the same level, all playlists are free.
DLC-1 Launches
- No DLC required.
- DLC-1 required.
-- You can pay $30 to get it, and the next 3 packs.
-- You can pay $10.
DLC-2 Launches
- No DLC required.
- DLC-1 and DLC-2 required.
-- You can pay $30 to get both and the next 2 packs.
-- You can pay $10 if you already have DLC-1.
-- You can pay $20.
DLC-3 Launches
- No DLC required
- DLC-1, DLC-2, DLC-3 required.
-- You can pay $30 to get both and the next 1 pack.
-- You can pay $10 if you already have DLC-1 and DLC 2.
-- You can pay $20. if you already have DLC-1.
And so on. You'd never have to pay more than $30 to catch up.
Edit: Hmm, maybe not the best idea. There should be some sort of middle ground playlist that only requires the previously release DLC (i.e. all but the latest one). The point is that the Season Pass should be available even after the DLC has been released, to make it easier for people to catch up.
Hypertrooper
Member
For people who doesn't know what Sinterklaars is. You know maybe a similar guy with the name Santa Claus.
----
343i does create some awesome t-shirts and hoodies.
Why not selling them? Because this one looks sexy too. Does Microsoft forbid them to open a shop? xxjuicesxx
Member
I think SC2 as a spectator has a bit of a learning curve where you don't exactly enjoy it at first but soon you figure things out and it gets really interesting to watch. The finals and grandfinals of the last MLG event were so insane. You realize how tight their timing's and attacks are, its pretty incredible to me how tight the game is played already compared to how short its been out.
/crappy sc player rant.
Tha Robbertster
Member
If the people on GAF look at the OT around this time of the year, they will definitely see a thread dedicated to the Sint
xxjuicesxx
Member
I read sinterklass brings all his toys on a tugboat or something. i think it was on those channels that play music i was listening to the christmas one.
I dunno the logistics just don't add up to me.
I dunno the logistics just don't add up to me.
No relationships between SP time and reused maps, just poor editing from me.
As for MP time, I can't see why a few good maps can't be enough.
I'm making two cases :
1/ i want some quality time with SP, even though it cuts on MP, since MP will get all the DLC.
2/ I play several MP games, like many from Halogaf I suppose, and even if Halo is my go-to choice, I 'll gladly swap a few maps and playlists in order to get a consistent community of people who can play well and know the maps, rather than a smargsboard of maps and playlists barely populated.
If every game comes with MP, why do developpers believe I'll be just playing their game?
Choice matters, and the choices offered to me should to.
If getting MP into your game is a matter of : Hey! see that man my MP 's got everything you need. then I feel I'm buying crack.
As for MP being the main reason, it's a personal matter and halo plays fucking great, but to me the story and designed encounters with AI do matter as much as MP, although I understand that in play time it will remain the cherry on the top.
MP maps to campaign and vice-versa didn't work for me too. That's why I'm arguing that I'm ok with less as long as it's good.
The Librarian
Banned
When it comes to MP maps, let's not forget that 343 should learn from Bungie's mistake and not try to integrate MP maps into campaign and vice-versa.
Agree, this is pretty much totally unnecessary.
Boneyard and Spire are like the worst BTB maps ever.
Nobody should ever do this and it's absolutely shameful Bungie copped out of actual map design by doing it.