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Halo: Reach |OT7| What are They to Say Now?

H

HiredN00bs

Member
Fuck the BR. Get that newbie burst-fire shit outta here.

You can make the gun look like whatever you want. Single-fire precision utility weapon or bust.
 
D

daedalius

Member
HiredN00bs said:
Fuck the BR. Get that newbie burst-fire shit outta here.

You can make the gun look like whatever you want. Single-fire precision utility weapon or bust.
Click to expand...

Not even the H2 BR? It might as well be single shot with how close together the rounds land. I just can't get over the burst sound effect, so much better.
 
H

HiredN00bs

Member
daedalius said:
Not even the H2 BR? It might as well be single shot with how close together the rounds land. I just can't get over the burst sound effect, so much better.
Click to expand...

It was single-shot, which is the way it should have stayed. Even with a tight spread, burst promotes sloppy play. Combine it with the ridiculous aim-assist in Halo 2, and it doesn't get any worse. As much as I despised Halo 3's BR spread, the aim assist was much less intrusive.
 
F

feel

Member
Fuck that. I want my BR. Make the bullets in the burst leave the gun closer to one another if you must.







v This, I get no satisfaction from the singleshot.
 
D

daedalius

Member
HiredN00bs said:
It was single-shot, which is the way it should have stayed. Even with a tight spread, burst promotes sloppy play. Combine it with the ridiculous aim-assist in Halo 2, and it doesn't get any worse.
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What do you mean it was single shot? Was it basically single shot after the patch that pulled the spread in really tight?

I agree about the aim assist, but even if they brought back the BR, it doesn't mean its going to have the same assist.

I guess I just like the idea of a burst weapon a lot better than single shot, other than a sniper rifle anyway. The sound effect and the idea of firing 3 bullets at once is cooler to me than a single shot rifle; which means they could basically make it a single shot in game terms, but just keep the burst sound and visual effect. The DMR just isn't as fun to shoot!
 
G

GECK

Member
So apparently my service tag isn't allowed after the latest matchmaking update. Gives me a warning when Reach starts up or whatever

If I don't change it could my GT be auto banned?
 
H

HiredN00bs

Member
Letters said:
Halo: Reach, go nuts. :p
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Dude, I do not know why you would actively seek to re-acquire a clearly inferior game mechanic. I've pressed people to explain why it would improve the competitiveness of the game and I get responses like "I like the way it looked/sounded" or "it's moar fun". Man up and explain why it's a better game mechanic so we can tear such an incorrect argument to shreds.
 
T

Tunavi

Banned
HiredN00bs said:
Dude, I do not know why you would actively seek to re-acquire a clearly inferior game mechanic. I've pressed people to explain why it would improve the competitiveness of the game and I get responses like "I like the way it looked/sounded" or "it's moar fun". Man up and explain why it's a better game mechanic so we can tear such an incorrect argument to shreds.
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Please calm down, its just his opinion.
 
D

daedalius

Member
HiredN00bs said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_y3cbIV-Xg
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Bleh, its a ZBDMR basically. Way better than a regular DMR, but meh.

Would rather have burst with the bullets just really close together personally. I've also already said just keep the sound effect and visual, but make the bullets land so close together its basically single shot. It does promote more solid aiming than burst.

Look even Fronk loves the BR!

Update_cougarhuting.jpg


Only one here remains.
Click to expand...

The best one! Although really, the other 2 are just working on other projects ;)
 
F

feel

Member
HiredN00bs said:
Dude, I do not know why you would actively seek to re-acquire a clearly inferior game mechanic. I've pressed people to explain why it would improve the competitiveness of the game and I get responses like "I like the way it looked/sounded" or "it's moar fun". Man up and explain why it's a better game mechanic so we can tear such an incorrect argument to shreds.
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This is ridiculous. What about the "fun videogame" part? Not everyone is a robot like you.

Indeed I prefer how it sounds, looks and feels and I find it more than competent enough for competitive play.
 
T

Trasher

Member
daedalius said:
Bleh, its a ZBDMR basically. Way better than a regular DMR, but meh.

Would rather have burst with the bullets just really close together personally. I've also already said just keep the sound effect and visual, but make the bullets land so close together its basically single shot. It does promote more solid aiming than burst.

Look even Fronk loves the BR

Update_cougarhuting.jpg
Click to expand...

Only one here remains.

Edit: Tashi. Wanna hop on SC2 with me and Eazy?
 
F

Fathead

Member
Are you a very recently approved member of neogaf?
A few months ago.

What country are you posting from and what’s your current age.
USofA and 30

At what age did you get into Halo and with which game.
Halo CE at age 20

For how long have you been reading HaloGAF?

Summer of 10

What’s your absolute favorite Halo campaign? And your favorite multiplayer? (you’re not allowed to pick Halo: Combat Evolved for any of the two)
Halo 3 for both. Didnt have live until about two weeks before 3 came out.

Highest Halo 3 level and which playlist.
38 team slayer

AR or BR?
BR for sure

Absolute favorite multiplayer map from Combat Evolved, Halo 2 and 3 (just one from each).
Sidewinder
Blackout
Citadel

Least hated Reach mp map.(excluding Anniversary pack)
Powerhouse

Do you prefer BTB or MLG? (pre-Reach era)
BTB

Competitive multiplayer or Firefight?
firefight

Games completed on solo Legendary.
Haven't failed in any of them yet....so yes al of them

Are you EazyB? Mike DongBlain?
No

What are some of your favorite Campaign missions.
AotCR. Regret. The Covenant. NMPD HQ. LNoS.

Favorite Reach playlists.
Anniversary anything

Size of frankie erotica folder (in megabytes).
I bought a 10 terabyte hard drive.....

Opinion on reticule bloom.
I liked the concept, not the execution.

Opinion on Armor Abilities and the one you usually end up picking.
Some are okay, but they create too much BS. I pick hologram because people are stupid enough to fall for it.

Why are you a Halo fan?
Great stories, fun times with pals in multiplayer, always things to discuss.

Favorite Halogaffer, and least favorite (besides Dax). (optional)
Ghaleon always has well thought out opinions, even if I dont always agree.

Now feel free to introduce yourself and/or share anything you want so we get to know you better, some of us would enjoy reading it. (optional)

I dont get to play nearly as much as I like, but I follow this stuff as closely as anyone. I went and bought 2 xboxes after playing CE the first time 10 years ago just so I could set up LAN parties. Always willing to play if Im online.
 
F

FyreWulff

Member
I know you think the new maps are great 343, but it'd be great if the new maps behaved and sorted correctly amongst the other ones in 1.2..
 
K

Kuroyume

Banned
I also like the DMR more than the BR. When you shoot the BR it sounds like someone squeezing out a small fart. I do think though that they could do a lot more to give the DMR a bit of "oomph" with its sound and animation. They should have both guns in H4 and just get rid of the crappy AR.
 
G

GhaleonEB

Member
HiredN00bs said:
Dude, I do not know why you would actively seek to re-acquire a clearly inferior game mechanic. I've pressed people to explain why it would improve the competitiveness of the game and I get responses like "I like the way it looked/sounded" or "it's moar fun". Man up and explain why it's a better game mechanic so we can tear such an incorrect argument to shreds.
Click to expand...

You must not have read HaloGAF when you pressed people, then. We've done this many times now.
 
G

GhaleonEB

Member
CyReN said:
Are we talking Halo 3 BR? because DMR > H3BR.
Click to expand...

Halo 3's BR with Reach's hitscan and netcode would be glorious.

The DMR really decimated BTB in Reach (among other things). The BR had a shorter effective range for reasons, and I think it's pretty clear from Reach that they were good reasons.
 
Lazslo

Lazslo

Member
Wait, Sketch is working on another project? Is he in anyway involved with Bungie, 343i, or Halo at all still? Hope so, Ske7ch is awesome.
 
G

Gui_PT

Member
Karl, sorry for pretending to be japanese and threatening every random that wasn't playing well with bukkakke related insults.

Must've scared you.
 
K

kittens

Unconfirmed Member
BR vs. DMR is one of the few Great Halo Debates that I have no strong opinion on. I'll just side with HiredN00bs for controversy's sake.

BTW, I'm getting online, let's play Anniversary MP!!!!!!!
 
D

Domino Theory

Crystal Dynamics
How about we get a BR/DMR hybrid? I know Rainbow Six Vegas had a function where you held down the X button and an instant tweak could be made to change the firing rate for a single weapon.

Or do it like Battlefied 3 where you hit down on the d-pad and the firing rate changes. That way you stick to one weapon model, but it can function in two different ways, on the fly, for people who enjoy using a DMR or a BR.
 
D

daedalius

Member
GhaleonEB said:
Halo 3's BR with Reach's hitscan and netcode would be glorious.

The DMR really decimated BTB in Reach (among other things). The BR had a shorter effective range for reasons, and I think it's pretty clear from Reach that they were good reasons.
Click to expand...

Would be great, definitely.

How about we get a BR/DMR hybrid? I know Rainbow Six Vegas had a function where you held down the X button and an instant tweak could be made to change the firing rate for a single weapon.

Or do it like Battlefied 3 where you hit down on the d-pad and the firing rate changes. That way you stick to one weapon model, but it can function in two different ways, on the fly, for people who enjoy using a DMR or a BR.
Click to expand...

But if you're only firing 1 shot, and everyone else is firing 3, how do you expect to win in a shootout? 4sk with a 3shot burst would be 12sk for single shots.

BR doesn't sound like a fart if you have a good sound system; although I wouldn't say it ever does.
 
G

GhaleonEB

Member
HiredN00bs said:
Oh sorry, forgot to include avoiding the question. That is also one of the non-responses.
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http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=28202273&postcount=9707

GhaleonEB said:
Just to be clear, my core criticism of the DMR is not the implementation of bloom per se, but to the effective range it enables.

Take the DMR and drop it into various BTB maps from Halo 2 and Halo 3 (we've seen what it does to Blood Gulch already). I noted Valhalla, where base to center donging would be easy with the DMR. On Headlong you could sit at the top of the building and nail players emerging from the offensive base; on Relic players by the flag could pin the attacking players in their bases with DMR fire. On Avalanche, the open spaces where vehicles or snipers were the only threat would become unplayable, and standoffs would skyrocket. on Standoff, instead of lining up along the rocks for shootouts across the middle, players could line up on top of their bases; anyone in the middle would be caught in a turkey shoot. On Rat's Nest, the entire length of the map could be cleared with the DMR, instead of one half; the map would become increasinly boring as players out in the race track couuld be destroyed from either corner. And so on. Those were spaces intended to be cleared by the sniper rifle, not the primary weapon. I think that's a problem on display in Reach, and just adding the requirement that players pace their shots is not enough to combat it.

With the BR, players could mitigate the spread by closing distance. With the DMR, players mitigate it with their firing speed. The two have very different effects on combat, with one pushing players together and the other further apart. In the end, I don't know why bloom was swapped in for bullet spread, other than it was a mechanism that Sage liked from Shadowrun. It was clearly implented without the care that went into the BR, with respect to combat distance. Part of this could be addressed by taking the DMR back to a 2x scope from the current 3x. But I do think there needs to be some mechanism to further shorten combat range. With a single fire, precision round, the only way to do that would be to make it less accurate over distance, which everyone would hate.

It's this train of thought that has me preferential to the BR's burst spread fire over precision aim with bloom.

I may well be describing a problem a lot of people don't think is a problem, but I've concluded that Bungie's efforts to limit the average combat distance of the BR/Carbine was one that was, in hindsight, beneficial to how the games played (for one, by making map movement easier, and second, bringing more combat elements into play). I don't enjoy these very long range DMR fights in Reach, they get boring. And they really hurt how maps play when you can be constantly taken out from that kind of range; from a map design perspective, it's very hard to compensate for.
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http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=30845104&postcount=4820

Risen said:
I'm just unsure why people think cross mapping is a bad thing... what I see is that only people with sufficient skill are going to be able to land the shots, people who are not as good will get killed by it by not knowing how, or being able to respond.

Say you do drop to a 2x... now you have to get closer to engage effectively for most people correct?

You just shrunk the playable surface of the map and slowed the game down. BTB is already slow enough.

3x zoom increases the playable area of a map and means people can't move without intention and must always be ready to engage. It speeds up game play which I see as a good thing.

Someone help me with the why being able to kill someone with the DMR at long ranges is bad, if everyone has the same gun in their hand

GhaleonEB said:
Take this logic and apply it maps from the series past. Let's do Halo 3, Valhalla. On that map, players on the center hill could do no more than ping players in the base. You had to work to get closer to the base to really get into BR range. In Reach, players on the hill and base would be in a constant firefight - and anyone in between would get evicerated.

Likewise, Standoff, where players would be cross mapping from the top of the bases, not across the rock gardens. Or Terminal, Waterworks, Relic (players on top would destroy the attacking team with DMR fire), Headlong (top of building to offensive spawn building cross mapping), Sandtrap (open dunes = killing zone) and so on across every BTB map in the series. Like Blood Gulch, for instance, which is a cross-mapping nightmare in Reach.

The range of the DMR really decimates BTB map design.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Read the conversation around those posts as well, as they are lengthy and thorough. I've plucked two quotes from many, using GAF's new and lovely search function.

On the effect in Campaign. Click for pictures!

http://www.forwarduntodawn.com/from-visegrad-with-love/4/

GhaleonEB said:
The range from which we can engage the Covenant has been very consistent throughout the series. Most weapons can be bucketed in a few categories, from close range (shotguns, Assault Rifles), medium to long (the Halo 1 pistol, the Battle Rifle, Carbine) and very long (sniper weapons). Notably, the medium range category kept the scope limited to a 2x magnification. The famed Halo pistol packed a powerful punch, but it was limited by the 2x scope and lost a bit of accuracy over extreme range. In Halo 2 and 3, the BR had a burst-fire capability that spread bullets out slightly (though the spread was later patched out of the multiplayer component of Halo 2). Bungie explained this design philosophy in a Bungie Weekly Update back in June 2008. While the meat of the article was about the Multiplayer context, the design goals apply to Campaign equally (my emphasis added):

The Battle Rifle works this way because after Halo 2 it was returned to be a reliable headshot and anti-sniper weapon (in terms of pinging Snipers at distance from their scoped-in state). The first bullet in the burst fills this role – it is quite accurate (identical to the Halo 2 BR, but with a travel time), and will kill an unshielded unit with a headshot or ping a sniper.

Another design goal with the Battle Rifle in Halo 3 was to bring the kill-range closer. One way this was achieved was by giving bullets 2 and 3 from the BR a wider error, which makes them less likely to land outside of the BR’s intended effective range. Summarily, this reduces the BR’s effectiveness AND damage output at those ranges, without compromising its ability to finish a target at the same range.​

The spread burst fire had the intentional effect of limiting the encounter distance and forcing us to come within a relatively short distance from the enemy to engage, enabling the other two legs of the golden tripod, melee and grenades, to enter the fray. It also allows the enemy to engage us with a richer array of weaponry. In short, it forced more combat elements into the encounters, causing them to play out differently more often, which in turn encouraged experimentation and improvisation. The mission designers took advantage of the limited range in the encounter designs, and the dynamic, changing battles that result are the fundamental combat experience that distinguishes and defines Halo. It’s worth noting that Paul Beretone (design lead for ODST) found even the BR’s impact on combat objectionable and tossed it entirely in ODST, and the replacement weapons brought the average engagement distance even closer.

The design of the DMR (and Nerfle) runs entirely counter to that approach. The DMR’s 3x zoom and added precision make it slot in closer to the sniper rifle than the BR in maximum effective range. While the BR could be fired 48 times at maximum capacity, a full DMR can carry 75 rounds. Added up, and the DMR has at least double the effective range of the BR and a 50% larger firing capacity on top of it.

We now have a standard weapon that allows us to engage the enemy from what used to be sniping distance but without the ammo limitations that come with sniper weapons. It turns out to be very difficult to craft encounters that play out in a variety of ways when we are equipped with this kind of firepower and are given an approach that leverages it, and the effect on combat is profound.

*snip*

Many of the best encounters in the Halo series were facilitated by the limited range of the weapon set available and the Chief’s relative agility. Among the standouts is an early battle in Halo 3, set in a cleverly designed hallway in Crow’s Nest. You know the one.

A sizable Brute pack, led by a hammer-toting Chieftain, is at one end of the two-level hall. We’ve been given the option of several weapons: the BR, the Shotgun and any others hauled along from the previous encounter. Because the pack was just outside of BR range, this battle can unfold in numerous ways. We could mix tactics, integrating shotgun ambushes of lone troops with grenades before falling back on longer range BR salvos as squads of Brutes were sent in as reinforcements. Movement was constant, between levels, through rooms and around cover because we couldn’t eliminate them before they reached us. The finale with the Chieftain was inevitably a hectic one, which presented an opportunity to deploy gravity lifts and anything else we could get our hands on.

Had we a DMR for this fight, we could have stood at our end of the hallway and headshot every Brute from there, and not a one would last long enough to close ranks with us. It would be a shooting gallery. And if they did close ranks, we could sprint to safety without fear of being caught from behind.

When the outdoors did not limit the range from which we could see an encounter set up, the design of the BR did. This battle in Halo 3, set amid the sun-drenched vista of Tsavo Highway, is memorable for the sheer number of enemies and the many ways the battle could unfold.

Similar to the AA gun fight on ONI, there is a spread of ample cover and an array of enemies mixed between them. Instead of an Elite General, there’s a Chieftain lurking in the distance. As on ONI, reinforcements deploy midway through and force an altered set of tactics we need to use (a Wraith pulls up along with a new round of Brutes, rather than a pair of Ghosts and Elite Rangers). But this time, in order to engage the Brutes we have to utilize the cover from the buildings and other structures in order to close the distance to BR range. Similar to the Crow’s Nest battle, that enables a mix of tactics and weapons to become more useful, and the battle can move all over the various structures.

As we arrive at the site of this encounter, there is a high perch over the entry way with a Sniper Rifle conveniently left behind. But the Sniper does not have enough ammo to kill many enemies, so we have to be selective. Meanwhile the effective range of the BR is not enough to engage all but the foremost handful of enemies. And even if it were, the 48-round firing capacity is not enough to take out everyone after the reinforcements land. There’s no choice but to dive in and get creative with the cover provided.

With a DMR, we could stand on the highway here, and thanks to the range, precision and 75-round capacity, kill everyone in the battle, including reinforcements, before moving on to the next encounter. Thanks to our reduced base traits and overbearing heavy ordnance from the Covenant, we’d have added motivation to do so. And then it would be reduced to the shooting gallery that the ONI encounter is reduced to.

This is a critical point because it is clear the Bungie mission designers intended combat in Reach to be as diverse and interesting as what came before it, and there is a great deal of strong encounter design throughout the missions. But the combat sandbox is not ideally suited to the mission designs. Had Reach’s rifles been in previous Halo titles, many of the greatest encounters would not be looked back on as being great.
Click to expand...

Feel free to book mark this post for the next time you complain no one is answering you on the same subject. Again.
 
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