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Halo: Reach |OT7| What are They to Say Now?
- Thread starter The Librarian
- Start date
The Real Napsta
Member
Barrow Roll said:
Nope.
Why?
All this review shit that's been happening on GAF just gave me a thought. About Halo 4, do you think people will go easy on 343 (reviewers but mostly us) because it's their "first" Halo game? It's easy to say, oh it's their first full, new Halo game, give em a chance. Or, Bungie's shoes are hard to fill, give them a break.
Or will we judge harshly because they have such a high standard to live up to? I expect a lot from Halo 4, more than I expect from any other game ever. It pretty much has to be better than Reach in every aspect or just as great. Just because it's a new developer, that doesn't mean we treat it like a new IP. Or will we be harsh because, "How can you fuck this up?" Halo has been out for 10 years now, we know what makes Halo great. As far as gameplay is concerned, they just need to play it safe basically. Take what works from each Halo game, mix and match, give us some classic maps, a bunch of new ones and don't do anything too crazy.
Idk, just a thought. Lol I make it sound like making Halo 4 is so easy. Meanwhile, it couldn't be more difficult lol.
Or will we judge harshly because they have such a high standard to live up to? I expect a lot from Halo 4, more than I expect from any other game ever. It pretty much has to be better than Reach in every aspect or just as great. Just because it's a new developer, that doesn't mean we treat it like a new IP. Or will we be harsh because, "How can you fuck this up?" Halo has been out for 10 years now, we know what makes Halo great. As far as gameplay is concerned, they just need to play it safe basically. Take what works from each Halo game, mix and match, give us some classic maps, a bunch of new ones and don't do anything too crazy.
Idk, just a thought. Lol I make it sound like making Halo 4 is so easy. Meanwhile, it couldn't be more difficult lol.
minasodaboy
Member
great work on the FUD podcast dani, ghaleon et al! it made for a good listen at the office today!
K
kittens
Unconfirmed Member
I think folks will judge 343 extra critically, definitely. Halo is a beloved franchise that many people feel has gone astray. If Halo 4 is perceived the same way, people will just say "lol, as expected" and write it off.
Peoples' reactions will likely be very polarized and hyperbolic. Halo 4 will either "kill the franchise" or be the second coming.
Peoples' reactions will likely be very polarized and hyperbolic. Halo 4 will either "kill the franchise" or be the second coming.
Slightly Live
Dirty tag dodger
minasodaboy said:
Thanks! I appreciate folks for giving it a chance. With the feedback we've received we're already planning out the next one.
And speaking of which, I've started the process of adding it to iTunes - have to wait for Apple to review it which might take a week or two. Also added a player widget that will let you play from the site or on a pop-out window in addition to downloading (folks that were "streaming" it before were actually using their browser not the site to do so).
Glasslands competition is still open (until Nov 1st) and so is the Comments/Elite avatar giveaway.
And for anyone that can tolerate my *ahem* regional accent - you might want to listen to The Running Riot tonight as I'm this month's guest. It's going out live so feel free to jump into the live chat during the show and hurl abuse at me or give it a listen afterwards when Kete puts it up for a listen.
Blue Ninja
Member
I honestly have no idea what you mean by that. :lolHypertrooper said:
Posting from my cell phone, technically I've got a french class in less than six hours, but yeah... That's gonna get skipped. Skipped bad. Damn hour-and-an-half commute.
Barrow Roll
Member
I've explained this before; the audio-visual damage feedback when getting shot in Reach is fantastic at communicating to the player when you or an enemy is almost dead. When to fight or flee. The way the shields flare and pop, it's great. Bullet bleedthrough bypasses this and you just drop dead most of the time. It's jarring.The Real Napsta said:
ElRenoRaven
Member
Tashi0106 said:
Oh they're going to be judged hard. No doubt. Hell even I of all people am going to be hard on them. I loved every single other Halo game. Even Halo 2. Sure it's 343's first real game but it isn't like they're starting from scratch. They have the old tech which they can study and learn from. They have the Story Bible now. This means they have a lot from which they can work story wise. So as I said they're damn well not starting from scratch like Bungie is with their new franchise for example.
HiredN00bs
Member
Was SD gaming a problem? Then why make games in HD? In the end, one plays better than the other. Knowing more precisely where you and your opponents stand in an encounter because the game clearly informs you is better. Could you devise an alternative system? Sure. Like Ramirez has pointed out, Halo 3 had one (although I don't think it was as clear). I'm not saying that the Reach approach is flawless, what I'm saying is that the TU Beta approach is worse.Barrow Roll said:
Slightly Live
Dirty tag dodger
PsychoRaven said:
They can't afford to screw around.
-Does the Warthog feel like a Warthog?
-Does the AR feel like an AR?
-Does the speed and jump height feel right?
-Do the new weapons gel with the old ones?
-Do the enemies challenges and push the player?
-Can I replay any level over and over again and have a different experience each time?
-Does it feel like Halo? Sound like Halo?
Think about all the expectations. Campaign. Multiplayer. Firefight. Forge. And that's before any newer additions which will be expected to be up to the same dizzyingly high standards.
343 may have some of the best talent in the industry. Everyone working there might real love Halo and want to it succeed. In the end though, we're going to rip it apart. The public is going to rip it apart. Critics will rip it apart. Every single feature is going to played, abused, analysed and broken. And we have ten years worth of comparisons to make. And these expectations are currently placed on a developer that has not shipped a single game.
Whilst I have high hopes and expectations, I think 343 are in the most unenviable position in the industry. I would be severely disappointed if Halo 4 did not meet my lofty expectations but I couldn't be bitter about it. They will have tried their best either way.
ElRenoRaven
Member
Slightly Live said:
Oh no doubt. I sure as hell don't envy them one bit. They're going to be damned if they do and damned if they don't. Hell look at what scorn including from me some of the minor design changes have gotten like the space diaper or Master chief's armor or hell Cortana. All that from an early trailer that was entirely not done in engine. Imagine when it comes to gameplay and changing the sandbox weapon and vehicle wise and just gameplay wise. They're going to get torn to shreds.
PsychoRaven said:
Yeaa but that tiny stuff doesn't matter. All of that can be forgiven if the gameplay and experience is there. However, if something like super bouncing or other nasty glitches come back in matchmaking, that's major damage. That type of stuff, glitches and over polish is another reason why I love the 3 year dev cycle over the 2 year. Halo is a big game that gets bigger, it needs the 3 years. Unless you're just iterating.
ElRenoRaven
Member
Tashi0106 said:
That's what I'm saying. They get torn up for little shit as is. Imagine something big like you mentioned. There would be people with pitchforks.
PsychoRaven said:
lol I would have a pitchfork.
I also think 343 has to be SOOOOO careful with what they show and eventually what the beta is like. There's no given with Halo 4. We don't know how it will stack against the previous Halo games. With Bungie, we were more comfortable.
edit: On the other end though, even though I disagree, I know there are a lot of people who lost faith in Bungie and continued to do so after Halo 1 was released. It was capped off with Halo Reach. I think people will welcome 343 and will be glad that Bungie is finally done with Halo.
Bungie got tired of Halo by 3 and had thoughts elsewhere during Reach. 343i is a studio made specifically for Halo, I'm not worried. They have an all star team and a set vision. From what we've seen with Halo in their hands, so far, I've got nothing but confidence in them.
edit: Dammit, tashi.
edit: Dammit, tashi.
Barrow Roll
Member
And in my opinion melee bleedthrough plays better. This is why they can't please everyone. Oh wells.HiredN00bs said:
I've never been a Bungie fan. I played though Myth 2 and enjoyed it. I struggled through the terrible Oni on PC. I fell in love with Combat Evolved but hated Halo 2 and 3s storyline. The books kept me pulled in though. So I'd say I'm a fan of the franchise and having a fresh, dedicated team on it is probably the best thing that could happen.
I didn't give Bungie any slack, I don't give indie or small eastern European developers (you suck, Katauri!) any slack, and I won't give any to 343. But I have faith they won't disappoint. More than I ever did with Bungle.
343 will be kept to task. They've got a lot of pressure to work under, but the right team to do it with.
I didn't give Bungie any slack, I don't give indie or small eastern European developers (you suck, Katauri!) any slack, and I won't give any to 343. But I have faith they won't disappoint. More than I ever did with Bungle.
343 will be kept to task. They've got a lot of pressure to work under, but the right team to do it with.
Blinding said:
So your team played Slayer in an Objective game and still got 72 ball points scored on you with a win margin that is quite normal. Hmm.
I'm not really sure if it's Trueskill's job to account for people not playing a gametype in an unexpected way. Especially when people worry about K/D in objective.
edit: Trueskill only sees that you win or lose a game. It doesn't care about the kill spread or objective point spread. In this game, you were expected to win because you were on red, and won.
So after this match everyone on blue gets marked with a loss and everyone with red gets a mark with a win and the TS values are recalculated. If you want CLOSE games all the time, play Arena.
FyreWulff said:
Actually, we didn't "play slayer in an objective game," rather one of them always managed to snag the ball, we'd kill their whole team and then whoever was suppose to pick up the ball on our team didn't and let it reset, where the process would start all over again (yes, the kids on my team were idiots t.) We would've actually lost had I not started grabbing the ball whenever I could've, I even watched a couple kids on both my team and their team walk around the ball, as if they were going to pick it up, but then when the text didn't popup on the screen telling them too they went "oh well nothing else I can do." I expect to get matched up with people that are somewhat in my skill range, if not above my skill range, and those kids certainly were not, and shouldn't have been matched up with anyone else in that game.
Blinding said:
So one game out of many was a mismatch. This will happen under any ranking system.
Everything not Arena has much looser skill matching requirements. You're asking Trueskill to quantify aspects of the game it was never designed to and does not do in any 360 game. All it knows is if you won or lost your last game and the ranks of the people you lost to or beat. If you're a 25 beating 20s with a +45 k/d spread, it will treat that win the same way as if you beat them 50-49 in the last 10 seconds.
Historically, if you're in the top half in the pre-game lobby you're expected to win. Under visible Trueskill, your best opportunity to rank up is being on Blue Team or the bottom half in Lone Wolves.
Otherwise, there's too many variables to consider. How many games has each person played in this playlist? Is it the actual account holder or someone else in the house/dorm playing? Did they 'show up' for this game or were busy chatting with someone in party chat? Was everyone else closer to their skill too laggy or far away to match up? etc etc.
They can make the skill matching super strict and hardcore, but this drastically hurts search times and population, like it does to the Arena. The best environment for TS is Ranked FFA, but it still does a better job than ELO did for matching team vs team.
FyreWulff said:
No, that's not the only game that I've played in that has been heavily lopsided, and it's not just isolated to that playlist.
I understand that, but even in Arena it doesn't work properly.
That's retarded, do you not see the issue with that? If you win a game with a +45 k/d spread it should bump your TrueSkill up higher then if you won a game 50-49, but that would require it to at least work somewhat, which a majority of the time it isn't from my personal experience.
I'm not wanting skill matching to be super strict and hardcore, but it needs to be enough of a factor to prevent match ups like the one I posted. I shouldn't have to play MLG all the time that I'm on Reach to get some competitive games going, and even then it's only because the players in the MLG playlist are significantly better then a majority of the players in other playlists, not because TrueSkill is doing it's intended purpose.
A27_StarWolf
Banned
I think a nice place to start would be Theater mode, make post to facebook, twitter, youtube buttons.
Waypoint integration, hell how about better theater controls! What if you made a multiple person viewing theater, but you diddn't have to join a lobby to do it per say? You could stay in a different pregame lobby and watch from there and still talk with the people in the theater.
Advanced camera controls!
Waypoint integration, hell how about better theater controls! What if you made a multiple person viewing theater, but you diddn't have to join a lobby to do it per say? You could stay in a different pregame lobby and watch from there and still talk with the people in the theater.
Advanced camera controls!
Blinding said:
All K/D consideration would do is lead to even harder boosting. ELO doesn't care about how hard you won and even the BCS removed score spread, for a real world example. All it does is lead to score padding, and what we don't need right now is even more encouragement to hold an objective.
You could attempt to a universal single Trueskill but then you run into an issue where someone really good at Team Snipers would get mauled the first time they tried Team Objective and would never return.
All I know is that each night we have a good run, about a few games in we'll get mauled by the next team that matches us, as TS gets more and more aware of our skill level.
As an example, Arena forces you to feed TS minimum data with the minimum games and minimum rated days before it shows you your division. In this way your division doesn't jump wildly up and down as you go, and encourages people to actually play instead of getting an 18-game win streak into Onyx and stopping.
If anyone has come up with a better system, they've either sold it to Microsoft (or another company) already or are keeping the math to themselves and licensing it's use. I feel I only have a basic understanding of how it works, so anything I could think of would probably be ripped apart by any statistics mathematician on GAF.
At the level I'm at in math though, I understand:
- Trueskill was designed around FFA matching
- Trueskill only cares about win/loss
- Trueskill works best unconstrained (ie minus Halo 3's method of implementing an artificial hill climb from 1-20)
- Trueskill works better when not used as an RPG rank and is not user-facing (More and more games are no longer making it visible, and Gears 2 even patched visible Trueskill out of the game)
- Trueskill doesn't punish you for beating lower ranked people like ELO does
- Trueskill doesn't suffer from population separation like ELO did in Halo 2
- Microsoft requires you to use Trueskill with your 360 title, unless you're EA or an MMO. You get to decide some parameters but you ultimately have to use their black box.
FyreWulff said:
Then you improve the ban system (something that should be done regardless of TrueSkill or not,) and better it's ability to detect boosting (player idling and ridiculous +/- from a single player or a player from each time are the first two to jump out at me.) It's never going to be perfect and regardless of what is done, there are going to be ways to cheat the system, does that mean that it shouldn't be implemented?
Or you make it so that actually playing the objective rewards the same credit payout as slaying, something that has been brought up multiple times in here. You could also use the credit system to encourage ranking up as well as discourage deranking (say, excessive deranking, like 5+ games where somebody has committed suicide enough to force a loss would start taking away from their credit total, and the more they continue to do so the bigger the amount that gets taken away becomes.)
Nope, don't want a universal TrueSkill. The playlists are different enough to warrant individual TrueSkill.
That has yet to be the case for me. Sure, I'll occasionally have games where the other team just straight up dominates mine, but then immediately after it'll be the same old thing again.
Oh no, I understand all of that, I'm saying that I just don't like the system in general. I wouldn't say that I liked Halo 2's ranking system that much either, but I feel that it was significantly better then what is currently implemented. Take Halo 2's system and the current banning system and I'd be pretty happy, though not entirely, and of course there'd still be boosters, but like I said above, there's always going to be people that will try to cheat the system regardless of what is done, and all that can really be done is discouraging that.
StalkerUKCG
Banned
So what if some BK boosts his way to a 50, it dosnt mean anything he will still get cleansed in MM. I know its not a solution to the problem but for me the problem isnt that problematic. I dont drop in a lobby with a 50 and expect them to be pistola.
Deputy Moonman
Member
When most encounters last seconds or less, I'm not buying the argument that knowing when your shield pops is going to allow you to make a decision to run away, and that you are going to have the time to actually run away. When your shield pops, you're dead. And whether you end up dead because you knew you were almost dead or because someone out shot you and you died anyway, what difference does it really make in the grand scheme of things? Are people arguing that that little audio/visual feedback is going to save them during encounters that last mere seconds? Come on now. You guys are good, but you're not that good. Or am I looking at this discussion from a bad angle?Barrow Roll said:
The only way bleed through even comes into play is if it's a distance shootout and you have cover close by that you can duck behind. But the moral of the story is don't risk dying if your health is low and kill your opponents before they kill you. It's an easy thing to adjust to and I'm not sure why people are so hung up on it. Melee in vanilla reach still required a prayer that you would unshield your opponent by the time you were within melee range. How is that any different than going in for a kill at melee range and hoping that you've caused enough damage to finish someone off with a melee bleed-through?
So as is, if you die to bleed through, you were out-skilled in that encounter. Player A caused enough damage to kill player B before player B could do the same to player A. It's as if bleed-through is just a cop out excuse for when a player dies. "Well if there wasn't bleed-through, I would have survived." But I don't agree.
Playing smart is what's important, and not relying on chance to survive bleed-through. If a pistol can kill someone in four shots, then a player shouldn't stick to a DMR and be upset when they die to bleed-through. There is a risk with using the pistol: the clip sucks. In the same way, the DMR should have some kind of risk, too, such as running into someone with a pistol. I played the beta TU a lot and I can't recall ever dying and thinking that it was an unfair death or that if I had just known my shields were low I could have avoided death.
Hydranockz
Member
Scenario ATashi0106 said:
*gets shot*
*shield doesn't pop*
*next shot kills*
dead player: :/
Scenario B
*gets shot*
*shield pops*
ALARM BELLS GO OFF
*Activates AA* <-- Seriously any AA will benefit this situation.
living player: trollface.jpg
So I feel like bloom is screwing me more than usual in the normal playlists, maybe I'm just too used to 85% and ZB now.
What cadence do you guys feels works the best in 100%? Seems like a quick double-tap will let the 2nd round maintain pretty good accuracy. Maybe I should just watch some of juices/tashi's stream.
Also, almost done with Glasslands. Can't wait to go back and read all those spoilers.
What cadence do you guys feels works the best in 100%? Seems like a quick double-tap will let the 2nd round maintain pretty good accuracy. Maybe I should just watch some of juices/tashi's stream.
Also, almost done with Glasslands. Can't wait to go back and read all those spoilers.
You know, I swear I hadn't seen the "More Like In Post" challenge before, but I guess I just missed it the other time it was used.
Rickenslacker
Banned
This is why I didn't like the clear division of shield/health. Shield popping meant ARMOUR LOCK TIME DERP, or rolling away, or sprinting.Hydranockz said:
PNut said:
I've put 50 games into Arena this season, maybe 10 of those weren't lopsided (if my memory serves me correctly.) Previous seasons it was the same as every other playlist in regards to skill matching, even after getting rated. I'm not trying to toot my own horn or make it seem like I'm better then everyone else, because I'm not, but there is some serious lack of skill matching going on with Reach in general in my personal experience.
So finished Glasslands, so awesome.
I am ready for the next one Frankie/Karen!
Not a spoiler, but I loved all the little callouts to Halo during the book, they made me smile. During one scene they didn't want 'Waypoint' there, because I guess their version of 'Waypoint' is Interstellar Earth News
Also, BB saying 'Yoink', I laughed.
Dani basically summed up everything else in his giant spoiler, even calling out a few things I missed myself.
I am ready for the next one Frankie/Karen!
Not a spoiler, but I loved all the little callouts to Halo during the book, they made me smile. During one scene they didn't want 'Waypoint' there, because I guess their version of 'Waypoint' is Interstellar Earth News
Also, BB saying 'Yoink', I laughed.
Dani basically summed up everything else in his giant spoiler, even calling out a few things I missed myself.
So Halsey's little corner of the Inferno is basically to do Parangoski's SCIENCE, or she gets shunted out an airlock. She is there to do NEVER-ENDING SCIENCE, for no credit to herself. Hopefully the next version of Mjolnir won't snap Spartan 4's spines if they don't have super-bones, haha.
The Real Napsta
Member
This ^Kuroyume said:
It punishes poor decision making and speeds up fights.