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[StreetsofBeige]

Its always the women... imagine fighting for all those equal rights, make incredible strides for women world wide for the greater good for humankind only to become brainwashed slaves to social media and the CCP propaganda machine like tiktok.

Young women are always the easiest to influence. Doesn't even have to be about politics. Just create marketing buzz around a new product or clothes and the entire shopping mall is filled with women buying shit.

In general women are super emotional and really amp up doing stuff to feel accepted and loved. Guys are more likely to not give a shit and waste time at the mall.

 

[chlorate]

It feels like a lot of Western anti-Zionists try to reflexively shut down any kind of discussion or compromise by using highly emotionally charged language that divides the two factions into the unambiguously good and evil, like some kind of Marvel Comics story. Accepting this premise pre hoc is a requirement to them. Furthermore, any information contrary to this narrative is deemed to be propaganda to be dismissed outright, and anyone who supports Israel is to be shunned, mocked, or expelled from the space. This is a very bad thing for achieving a meaningful and just solution to the conflict.

 

[Ashes]

It feels like a lot of Western anti-Zionists try to reflexively shut down any kind of discussion or compromise by using highly emotionally charged language that divides the two factions into the unambiguously good and evil, like some kind of Marvel Comics story. Accepting this premise pre hoc is a requirement to them. Furthermore, any information contrary to this narrative is deemed to be propaganda to be dismissed outright, and anyone who supports Israel is to be shunned, mocked, or expelled from the space. This is a very bad thing for achieving a meaningful and just solution to the conflict.

Shut down discussion? My experience has been to the contrary.
Evidence out of Gaza from both idf soldiers and locals seem to show quite clearly crimes against humanity are being committed regularly.
No amount of evidence seems to change hearts or minds.

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

Shut down discussion? My experience has been to the contrary.
Evidence out of Gaza from both idf soldiers and locals seem to show quite clearly crimes against humanity are being committed regularly.
No amount of evidence seems to change hearts or minds.

Why do you think a ceasefire agreement can't be reached? Asking sincerely.

 

[Kar]

Shut down discussion? My experience has been to the contrary.
Evidence out of Gaza from both idf soldiers and locals seem to show quite clearly crimes against humanity are being committed regularly.
No amount of evidence seems to change hearts or minds.

October 7 should have been enough to carpet bomb Gaza, Israel had shown way too much restraint, This is why only 28k terrorists had died and not 500k.
Why Israel hadn't started to move the entire Palestinian population to some other Arab country is not clear as of yet, but it'll definitely happen some time in the future, and good riddance.

 

[ADiTAR]

Shut down discussion? My experience has been to the contrary.
Evidence out of Gaza from both idf soldiers and locals seem to show quite clearly crimes against humanity are being committed regularly.
No amount of evidence seems to change hearts or minds.

What crimes against humanity?

Part of war is civilian casualties. All of this is on Hamas, who actually committed a crime against humanity on 10/7. Israel has turned the other cheek for 18 years from Hamas rockets and terror, no more, and it's brutal for Gazans but that's war.

 

[Z O N E]

Let's see how the Pro-Hamas and Pro-UNRWA (Hamas) supporters defend this.

 

[ADiTAR]

Let's see how the Pro-Hamas and Pro-UNRWA (Hamas) supporters defend this.

More:

 

[StreetsofBeige]

More:

Bingo. Right from the beginning, people were right saying terrorist stuff was done in hospitals. And they were right the whole time.

Thats why when it comes to this silly game of cat and mouse, you got to just say fuck it and go in hard right from the start and end it. Think of it like WWII. If the Allies tried to end Nazis doing cheesy tit for tat attacks where each side shoots rockets or artillery shells over borders killing 10 people a day, we'd still be in WWII right now. But if one side goes hard, you go harder back.

The only people who want soft counterattacks are weird apologists, or anyone on that enemy side who begs they dont get wrecked back.

But it was over the top attacks, Normandy raids, and balls to the wall to finally end Germany and Japan attacks.

Sometimes in life trying to talk to someone doesn't work, negotiating doesn't work, a slap in a face doesn't work. It gets to a point you might have to kick them in the teeth until they got no teeth left.

There's always some people who just dont listen.

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

The case for self governance in Gaza weakens by the day. If Palestinians wish to demonstrate to the world that they are capable of responsible and constructive civil organization, they better start showing it asap.

Every time something like this comes out it further undermines their claims of capability and willingness to reform themselves on their own. This is a disaster of their own making.

For decades, Gazans have received hundreds of millions in annual funds from the world. Electricity and water from Israel. Given their own exclusive UN refugee agency, with more manpower than all other UN refugee programs combined, and shouldering the burden of all education efforts in Gaza instead of the government. They have more hospitals per capita than any Arab country in the region, and indeed more than many western countries.

Their leaders are billionaires. Their rate of birth is unprecedented. They have proven themselves to be industrious and resourceful. Under these conditions, any group of people with an actual will to live and prosper would have been thriving by now.

Instead of creating a civilization, they've built a grotesque mockery of one. And they've done so proudly and unapologetically.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

The case for self governance in Gaza weakens by the day. If Palestinians wish to demonstrate to the world that they are capable of responsible and constructive civil organization, they better start showing it asap.

Every time something like this comes out it further undermines their claims of capability and willingness to reform themselves on their own. This is a disaster of their own making.

For decades, Gazans have received hundreds of millions in annual funds from the world. Electricity and water from Israel. Given their own exclusive UN refugee agency, with more manpower than all other UN refugee programs combined, and shouldering the burden of all education efforts in Gaza instead of the government. They have more hospitals per capita than any Arab country in the region, and indeed more than many western countries.

Their leaders are billionaires. Their rate of birth is unprecedented. They have proven themselves to be industrious and resourceful. Under these conditions, any group of people with an actual will to live and prosper would have been thriving by now.

Instead of creating a civilization, they've built a grotesque mockery of one. And they've done so proudly and unapologetically.

I said it before.

You need both a good government and logical civilians who actually care for a country to prosper. The second one side doesn’t give a shit everything collapses. It doesn’t matter if the UN wants to help or if the country is blessed with tons of natural resources or access to water. If the sentiment is a lot of leaders or people don’t give a shit then it becomes shit. It’s like one long drawn out century of mediocrity.

Way back, I brought up Singapore. And someone else brought up South Korea. Two countries 50 years ago which were probably third world countries of nothingness. Maybe not even that long. Maybe 40 years. Not sure but it doesn’t matter if my timeline is off.

They are are doing great. Everyone got on the train together to prosper and not fuck around.

 

[nush]

Bingo. Right from the beginning, people were right saying terrorist stuff was done in hospitals. And they were right the whole time.

Thats why when it comes to this silly game of cat and mouse, you got to just say fuck it and go in hard right from the start and end it. Think of it like WWII. If the Allies tried to end Nazis doing cheesy tit for tat attacks where each side shoots rockets or artillery shells over borders killing 10 people a day, we'd still be in WWII right now. But if one side goes hard, you go harder back.

The only people who want soft counterattacks are weird apologists, or anyone on that enemy side who begs they dont get wrecked back.

But it was over the top attacks, Normandy raids, and balls to the wall to finally end Germany and Japan attacks.

Sometimes in life trying to talk to someone doesn't work, negotiating doesn't work, a slap in a face doesn't work. It gets to a point you might have to kick them in the teeth until they got no teeth left.

There's always some people who just dont listen.

AKA “Take off, nuke the site from orbit, it’s the only way to be sure”

 

[ChuckeRearmed]

Their leaders are billionaires. Their rate of birth is unprecedented. They have proven themselves to be industrious and resourceful. Under these conditions, any group of people with an actual will to live and prosper would have been thriving by now.

The rate of birth just demonstrates that the society is underdeveloped. In developed societies, the population declines all the time as poor people have more children. For Gaza it was basically boil down to the fact they needed more children to fight, for military organizations and so on.

 

[nkarafo]

Way back, I brought up Singapore. And someone else brought up South Korea. Two countries 50 years ago which were probably third world countries of nothingness.

The difference here is islam.

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

The rate of birth just demonstrates that the society is underdeveloped. In developed societies, the population declines all the time as poor people have more children. For Gaza it was basically boil down to the fact they needed more children to fight, for military organizations and so on.

They don't *need* more children to fight. They *choose* to indoctrinate their children into jihad instead of build a better future for them. I'm done apologizing for their own backwards culture that values death above life.

 

[Z O N E]

Well, well, well. First UNRWA with its Hamas operatives and now a journalist working at Al-Jazeera found to have worked with Hamas.

 

[SF Kosmo]

This is why only 28k terrorists had died and not 500k.

Is it your assertion that every dead person is a terrorist? And that there are a half million people in Gaza morally deserving of death? The most generous estimates I have seen put the civilian death toll at 80%, with some as high as 95%.

 

[Faust]

Is it your assertion that every dead person is a terrorist? And that there are a half million people in Gaza morally deserving of death? The most generous estimates I have seen put the civilian death toll at 80%, with some as high as 95%.

The user is clearly stating that if Israel didn't care about civilian lives the death total would be over 10x the size as they wouldn't be doing strategic targets or attempting to get civilians out of the line of fire. If Israel was truly the evil that many antisemites seem to paint them as, they would be carpet bombing the entire region and wouldn't send in ground troops. That isn't the reality we live in.

War will cause innocent lives lost. Israel is clearly trying to minimize that number.

 

[F0rneus]

Well, well, well. First UNRWA with its Hamas operatives and now a journalist working at Al-Jazeera found to have worked with Hamas.

What a piece of shit. I hope the IDF gets his ass.

 

[ADiTAR]

I'm crying. Finally some great news.



+

 

[LordCBH]

Well, well, well. First UNRWA with its Hamas operatives and now a journalist working at Al-Jazeera found to have worked with Hamas.

Hopefully a nice drone strike comes for that piece of shit. Yet another reason why fuck Al-Jazeera.

 

[SF Kosmo]

The user is clearly stating that if Israel didn't care about civilian lives the death total would be over 10x the size as they wouldn't be doing strategic targets or attempting to get civilians out of the line of fire.

You're being far too generous to him. He referred to a number roughly proximal to the total death count as "terrorists," which seems to entirely ignore the existence of civilians or innocents at all. I'll let him speak for himself but it sounds like he is saying they are all fair game, so they should all be lucky to be alive.

I'm not so sure about how effective Israel's attempts to protect civilian life are this time around either. When compared with the civilian casualty rates in other modern conflicts, it does seem that the number here is much, much higher. We have to go back to pre-Geneva WWII to find similar numbers. Could it be worse? I mean it can always be worse. But 80-95% civilian casualty rates hardly seem like something to boast about.

 

[Kar]

You're being far too generous to him. He referred to a number roughly proximal to the total death count as "terrorists," which seems to entirely ignore the existence of civilians or innocents at all. I'll let him speak for himself but it sounds like he is saying they are all fair game, so they should all be lucky to be alive.

I'm not so sure about how effective Israel's attempts to protect civilian life are this time around either. When compared with the civilian casualty rates in other modern conflicts, it does seem that the number here is much, much higher. We have to go back to pre-Geneva WWII to find similar numbers. Could it be worse? I mean it can always be worse. But 80-95% civilian casualty rates hardly seem like something to boast about.

How do you know who's a terrorist and who is not? the number we have are from Hamas, which mean absolutely nothing.
If Hamas says most of them are civilians then I guess U should just run with it? Well in my opinion, 99% of them are terrorist. I mean, why not?

By the way, Hamas counts every single male under 18 as a child, so every dead 17 y/o with an AK-47 is being counted as a child civilian death.
Do you know how many 14~18 y/o dudes with AK-47 are there in Gaza?

Of the 2.1m civilian population in Gaza, maybe 20% of them are truly innocent civilians in my opinion.
Does that mean I want 80% of them to die? No. But it means that Israel can't afford to live next to them, they should go some place else.

The fact that people still insist on a 2 state solution even now.. people are delusional.

 

[BlackTron]

You're being far too generous to him. He referred to a number roughly proximal to the total death count as "terrorists," which seems to entirely ignore the existence of civilians or innocents at all. I'll let him speak for himself but it sounds like he is saying they are all fair game, so they should all be lucky to be alive.

I'm not so sure about how effective Israel's attempts to protect civilian life are this time around either. When compared with the civilian casualty rates in other modern conflicts, it does seem that the number here is much, much higher. We have to go back to pre-Geneva WWII to find similar numbers. Could it be worse? I mean it can always be worse. But 80-95% civilian casualty rates hardly seem like something to boast about.

Israel can attempt to protect civilian life, but if Hamas wants to use civilians as shields, cannon fodder, and photo op/number padding opportunities, it will be that much harder. Hell, Hamas told civilians to ignore IDF airstrike warnings as disinformation. IDF didn't even have to give a warning at all, doesn't mean they don't try.

The implication is that it's IDF's responsibility to stop because Hamas refuses to let civilians get out of the way. Of course it's really on Hamas to stop using civilians as leverage by forcing them into the line of fire. They need this to protect themselves and label IDF as the bad guy.

 

[SF Kosmo]

How do you know who's a terrorist and who is not? the number we have are from Hamas, which mean absolutely nothing.
If Hamas says most of them are civilians then I guess U should just run with it? Well in my opinion, 99% of them are terrorist. I mean, why not?

It's not "because Hamas says," there are a number of independent international groups that estimate these sorts of numbers. And yes, it's just an estimate, but all of those estimates seem to be pointing to the fact that the overwhelming majority (at least 80%) are civilians.

If you have better information, I'm open to hear it, but it seems like you're just making things up.

By the way, Hamas counts every single male under 18 as a child, so every dead 17 y/o with an AK-47 is being counted as a child civilian death.
Do you know how many 14~18 y/o dudes with AK-47 are there in Gaza?

Do you?

Of the 2.1m civilian population in Gaza, maybe 20% of them are truly innocent civilians in my opinion.

Is that opinion based on any kind of data?

 

[ADiTAR]

It's not "because Hamas says," there are a number of independent international groups that estimate these sorts of numbers. And yes, it's just an estimate, but all of those estimates seem to be pointing to the fact that the overwhelming majority (at least 80%) are civilians.

If you have better information, I'm open to hear it, but it seems like you're just making things up.


Do you?


Is that opinion based on any kind of data?

Which groups are those? UNRWA? UN? both seems to have compromised integrity. Can you link to any other source?

The two hostages that were just rescued were held in a family home, is that family a terrorist? Or terror supporting? I think so.

If Israel didn't care about trying to protect civilian lives, it would've carpet bomb Gaza to oblivion. No boots on the ground who die.

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

War will cause innocent lives lost. Israel is clearly trying to minimize that number.

And, I will add, Hamas is clearly doing the opposite of trying to minimize that number.

Documented from day 1, Hamas leaders state over and over again that the tunnels are not used to offer civilians any protection. Even a person who doesn't believe the active use of human shields cannot deny this fact.

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

I'm not so sure about how effective Israel's attempts to protect civilian life are this time around either. When compared with the civilian casualty rates in other modern conflicts, it does seem that the number here is much, much higher. We have to go back to pre-Geneva WWII to find similar numbers. Could it be worse? I mean it can always be worse. But 80-95% civilian casualty rates hardly seem like something to boast about.

I'd be very interested to break those numbers down together. Please provide your sources for civilian casualty rates in this conflict and others from recent decades.
In particular, please include conflicts where at least one side is a fundamentalist Islamist organization, which practices similar life endangering tactics as Hamas.

 

[SF Kosmo]

In particular, please include conflicts where at least one side is a fundamentalist Islamist organization, which practices similar life endangering tactics as Hamas.

America's interventions in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Syria against ISIS and others would qualify, no?

In less than two months, the civilian death toll in Gaza outpaced all of those conflicts. Not the RATE mind you, the TOTAL number of civilians killed in any year of conflict in any of those regions. And that number has more than doubled since. Let that sink in.

https://www.axios.com/2023/11/27/gaza-civilian-deaths-israel-conflict-zones

The RATE of civilian casualties are an order of magnitude beyond those conflicts, beyond any conflict after the Geneva conventions. It is more similar to the sorts of carpet bombings that occured in WWII in terms of damage to civilian lives and infrastructure than it is anything in the "war on terror." Or even any past Israeli conflicts.

To put this 80-90% civilian death rate in perspective, the Oct 7 terror attacks killed about 780 civilians and around 450 soldiers, which is a civilian death rate of about 65%. And those terrorists certainly had no desire to mitigate or minimize civilian casualties.

I'm not here to make an argument about what Israel should or shouldn't do. I have lived in Israel, I have a lot of complicated feelings about it, and this is a no-politics board. But it seems tough to maintain this narrative that they're taking every reasonable measure to protect civilians. The numbers tell a different story.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Who knows how many people in Gaza are terrorists or amped up in hatred. But unless every piece of footage shown is lying regarding hateful mobs, school propaganda, rocket launchers in schools, endless tunnels (including under hospitals), then it probably is a pretty good amount.

Lets face it, I highly doubt Gaza is 1% haters or terrorists and 99% chill people who'd invite Jews over for dinner. And I highly doubt any of you guys think that too.

Think of it like a car dealership. Someone goes there in good faith to buy a car. He gets burned with a crap car and bad service. And when he complains the sales manager is a worm too. They promise everything is good from their end and and it's the customer's fault. Well, the logical thing is you got burned and best to avoid that place going forward.

You dont keep going back giving them more business with another salesman looking for an honest one. There might be some other people working there who are trustworthy, but it's not worth the hassle giving them chances over and over again.

 

[wa600]

But 80-95% civilian casualty rates hardly seem like something to boast about.

How can you look at that number and think "Yeah.. that sounds plausible." ?

According to the Gaza Ministry of Health we've recently reached 28.000 palastinian deaths. If that 95% number were correct, it would mean only ~1400 terrorists were eliminated. We already had at least 1000 killed terrorists on Israel territory after they stormed the border on Oct 7.
These type of numbers would suggest that a) Israel is highly incompetent and is basically killing anyone BUT terrorists or b) Israel is willing to sacrifice a very high civilian casualty number in order to strike one hamas member (like 50:1 or even higher).

One thing about these numbers that strikes me as odd is when we look at the conflict with Hisbollah. These guys seem to reveal the identity of every single fallen member. I dont know the exact numbers, but a few days ago they were at 179 deaths. Now dont quote me on the civilian deaths in Lebanon because the last info I can find is more than 30 days ago, but the current number should be around ~25.
While its surely not the exact 1:1 conflict, its still weird to see how the civilian to terrorists ratios are basically flipped.

One huge difference is that we seemingly have transparency from Hisbollah on one side, but complete fog on the details from Hamas on the other side. Hamas clearly doesnt want to reveal these details (they somehow manage to reveal a list of every single dead person, but fail to list their own dead members). Its all in their interest to keep the number of civilian deaths as high as possible (especially women and children). Their only way of 'winning' this war is by turning the international community against Israel.

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

America's interventions in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Syria against ISIS and others would qualify, no?

In less than two months, the civilian death toll in Gaza outpaced all of those conflicts. Not the RATE mind you, the TOTAL number of civilians killed. Let that sink in.

https://www.axios.com/2023/11/27/gaza-civilian-deaths-israel-conflict-zones

The RATE of civilian casualties are an order of magnitude beyond those conflicts, beyond any conflict after the Geneva conventions. It is more similar to the sorts of carpet bombings that occured in WWII in terms of damage to civilian lives and infrastructure than it is anything in the "war on terror."

To put this 80-90% civilian death rate in perspective, the Oct 7 terror attacks killed about 780 civilians and around 450 soldiers, which is a civilian death rate of about 65%. And those terrorists certainly had no desire to mitigate or minimize civilian casualties.

I'm not here to make an argument about what Israel should or shouldn't do. I have lived in Israel, I have a lot of complicated feelings about it, and this is a no-politics board. But it seems tough to maintain this narrative that they're taking every reasonable measure to protect civilians. The numbers tell a different story.

Israel is waging a quicker war against Hamas than those waged by the US, on that we can agree. There are several reasons for this, one being the greater urgency of Israel's war (because Hamas is an immediate and direct threat to Israeli civilians, which was never the case for ISIS, nor for most conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan), and another being the fact that Israel cannot afford the trillions of dollars spent by the US on such lengthy wars, nor does it have comparable manpower to uphold such extended operations.

Here is a report on attempts to estimate the long term damage caused by post 9/11 anti terror operations:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/05/15/war-on-terror-911-deaths-afghanistan-iraq/

And here is an extensive breakdown of just the war in Iraq:

Casualties of the Iraq War - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Besides the MUCH higher long term estimates, you'll notice the difficulty in establishing exact numbers, and the need for multiple academic studies by reputable sources which still were unable to derive conclusive information.

Contrast that with the precision and up to date reporting on casualties in Gaza, and you should arrive at one of two conclusions: either the IDF is operating much more transparently than other armies did in the wars I mentioned, or Hamas are lying about their ability to accurately record casualties at the rate which they report.

 

[SF Kosmo]

How can you look at that number and think "Yeah.. that sounds plausible." ?

According to the Gaza Ministry of Health we've recently reached 28.000 palastinian deaths. If that 95% number were correct, it would mean only ~1400 terrorists were eliminated. We already had at least 1000 killed terrorists on Israel territory after they stormed the border on Oct 7.

I am not endorsing any particular figure, I am just quoting the range of estimates. As in all cases, the true number is likely somewhere in the middle of those two numbers.

These type of numbers would suggest that a) Israel is highly incompetent and is basically killing anyone BUT terrorists or b) Israel is willing to sacrifice a very high civilian casualty number in order to strike one hamas member (like 50:1 or even higher).

I will let you interpret the data how you like, but that seems reasonable to me.

One huge difference is that we seemingly have transparency from Hisbollah on one side, but complete fog on the details from Hamas on the other side. Hamas clearly doesnt want to reveal these details (they somehow manage to reveal a list of every single dead person, but fail to list their own dead members). Its all in their interest to keep the number of civilian deaths as high as possible (especially women and children). Their only way of 'winning' this war is by turning the international community against Israel.

You're using the existence of a degree of uncertainty so an awful lot of lifting here.

How can you look at that number and think "Yeah.. that sounds plausible." ?

How can you look at the fact that Israel has destroyed about 70% of the homes in Gaza and maintain that they are simply collateral damage in precision strikes on terrorists.

This is where that "Human shield" narrative falls apart, in my opinion. You can't do that sort of total destruction by accident.

And that maybe gets lost in the conversation about body count, too. Gaza has been rendered essentially unlivable, a circumstance that many in Israel have stated a desire to exploit to forcibly relocate those people out of the country. I've seen some in this thread advocate for the same thing. So if that's the intent, let's say that.

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

How can you look at the fact that Israel has destroyed about 70% of the homes in Gaza and maintain that they are simply collateral damage in precision strikes on terrorists.

Are you up to date on the extent of the terror tunnels and other terrorist infrastructure in Gaza?
Do you understand that the process of finding this infrastructure also consists of dealing with uncertainty and misinformation?
For every civilian building destroyed which either connects to a tunnel or houses ammunition, what is an acceptable number of buildings destroyed which in hindsight were unnecessary?

When you wage war from within civilian infrastructure, you put the lives of many more civilians at risk than just the ones who are actually housing terrorists and weapons. War is chaos and uncertainty, by definition. When you encourage mixing civilian life with the chaos of war, you are committing a crime against your own people.

If Hamas wanted to wage a different kind of war, one that is much more transparent and humane, it had the ability to do so. The decision to operate in such a way that makes Israel look bad no matter the outcome, is theirs. And it is entirely intentional and political.

In a sane world, the leaders of Hamas would be tried for heinous crimes against humanity as we speak.

 

[SF Kosmo]

Are you up to date on the extent of the terror tunnels and other terrorist infrastructure in Gaza?
Do you understand that the process of finding this infrastructure also consists of dealing with uncertainty and misinformation?
For every civilian building destroyed which either connects to a tunnel or houses ammunition, what is an acceptable number of buildings destroyed which in hindsight were unnecessary?

If you're suggesting that infrastructure comprises nearly all of the livable structures in the region, then no, I'm afraid I haven't heard that.

These sorts of hand waving excuses have worked for Israel for a long time, in part because there is a degree of truth to them, but the scale of the damage in this conflict, both in terms of civilian casualties and damage to infrastructure has far outstripped what these talking points can bear. I think we've seen a sudden surge in skepticism and a collapse of of support for Israel during this operation for precisely this reason.

And I think it's important to step back and recognize what an existential threat it is for Israel to be deligegitimized in the world community. That's probably a far greater threat to Israel's future than terrorism, and I think a lot of people who have their heart in the right place are missing the very real possibility that this administration is driving the nation off a cliff from which it will never return.

 

[ADiTAR]

If you're suggesting that infrastructure comprises nearly all of the livable structures in the region, then no, I'm afraid I haven't heard that.

These sorts of hand waving excuses have worked for Israel for a long time, in part because there is a degree of truth to them, but the scale of the damage in this conflict, both in terms of civilian casualties and damage to infrastructure has far outstripped what these talking points can bear. I think we've seen a sudden surge in skepticism and a collapse of of support for Israel during this operation for precisely this reason.

And I think it's important to step back and recognize what an existential threat it is for Israel to be deligegitimized in the world community. That's probably a far greater threat to Israel's future than terrorism, and I think a lot of people who have their heart in the right place are missing the very real possibility that this administration is driving the nation off a cliff from which it will never return.

There's no collapse in support for Israel, actually all surveys show that humans not Twitter bots are supporting Israel in this even after 4 months.

The world community will not have Israel delegitimized because the world have been offered Muslims living next to them, and the world moves to the right because of it. People in Europe are realizing what Israel is living next to, so they understand better why Israel is doing what needs to be done.

Not to mention Israel is mostly self sustained, and the world needs Israel just as much. Israel the second largest tech hub in the world, and most of everything you use these days has some sort of Israel tech in it.

 

[ADiTAR]

 

[BlackTron]

Investigators are trying to sort out whether she was politically motivated OR a disturbed individual

lol

 

[StreetsofBeige]

There's no collapse in support for Israel, actually all surveys show that humans not Twitter bots are supporting Israel in this even after 4 months.

The world community will not have Israel delegitimized because the world have been offered Muslims living next to them, and the world moves to the right because of it. People in Europe are realizing what Israel is living next to, so they understand better why Israel is doing what needs to be done.

Not to mention Israel is mostly self sustained, and the world needs Israel just as much. Israel the second largest tech hub in the world, and most of everything you use these days has some sort of Israel tech in it.

Trust me.

Ever since this whole debacle started, everyone I've spoken to supports Israel. And for any Palestine supporters, they are either weird loud people you see in mobs on TV or they just dont say anything.

But freely speaking, I've not met one person face to face discussing this issue support Gaza over Israel. But we all know there's tons of closet Israel haters. They usually do it in masked mobs, so it's impossible to isolate or have people bothering to cherry pick people out of a giant group. There's always strength in numbers, vs a lone wolf doing or saying something.

Even when my company did one of those inter-company donation drives, it was to donate to Israel, not Gaza. I donated either $100 or $200. I forget. But even I donated since it was such a stupid attack, which is even surprising for me since when it comes to charitable things I'm one of the cheapest fucks you'll ever meet. Just to prove that, I forget how much donated off my pay stub, but I do remember not getting a charity tax receipt. lol. Last time I donated before that was Fort McMurray fire long time ago. But if I feel there is a righteous urge that day I'll donate to people who deserve it.

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

If you're suggesting that infrastructure comprises nearly all of the livable structures in the region, then no, I'm afraid I haven't heard that.

These sorts of hand waving excuses have worked for Israel for a long time, in part because there is a degree of truth to them, but the scale of the damage in this conflict, both in terms of civilian casualties and damage to infrastructure has far outstripped what these talking points can bear. I think we've seen a sudden surge in skepticism and a collapse of of support for Israel during this operation for precisely this reason.

And I think it's important to step back and recognize what an existential threat it is for Israel to be deligegitimized in the world community. That's probably a far greater threat to Israel's future than terrorism, and I think a lot of people who have their heart in the right place are missing the very real possibility that this administration is driving the nation off a cliff from which it will never return.

A massive Hamas data center was just found underneath an UNRWA headquarters building, connected to hundreds of meters of tunnels running between the vicinity of schools and a university.

I agree that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, but I'd say Israel is gradually delivering. And this latest find is a very good example. Wouldn't you agree?

 

[Pigenator]

Wonderful news to wake to today in Israel.
Unbelievable that this is only the 2nd successful rescue operation since the war started, but now with IDF going full power in Rafah we will probably hear a lot more news (either good or bad).
I just wish for some happy ending in all of that shit. There are still 134 families barely able to function knowing their loved ones are captive and tortured over there. Fuck this war, hope this will be the end of Hamas once and for all.

 

[ADiTAR]

Wonderful news to wake to today in Israel.
Unbelievable that this is only the 2nd successful rescue operation since the war started, but now with IDF going full power in Rafah we will probably hear a lot more news (either good or bad).
I just wish for some happy ending in all of that shit. There are still 134 families barely able to function knowing their loved ones are captive and tortured over there. Fuck this war, hope this will be the end of Hamas once and for all.

It will. Rafah is the last place to hide, and Egypt already told Hamas to either bend the knee or Israel is entering in two weeks.

 

[ADiTAR]

They both lost half their body weight.

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

And I think it's important to step back and recognize what an existential threat it is for Israel to be deligegitimized in the world community. That's probably a far greater threat to Israel's future than terrorism, and I think a lot of people who have their heart in the right place are missing the very real possibility that this administration is driving the nation off a cliff from which it will never return.

I'm no supporter of Israel's current administration, but at some point one has to also recognize that there are two parties involved in this war. If Israel deserves to be deligitimized for its actions, then tell me: by what logic do Palestinians deserve full sovereignty and self governance? I have yet to hear a single leader from them come out and admonish Hamas, or take any form of critical stance against their methods of operation. All I hear are lies and blame and cries of helplessness along with cries to commit another October 7th, not an ounce of responsibility or self awareness of their predicament. Nothing that suggests there is a sane partner with which peace can be achieved.

They can't seem to run a school system without turning it into a jihadist brainwashing propaganda machine, they can't seem to divert their own limited electricity and fuel to where it is most urgently needed - hospitals and water purification facilities - instead using it for rockets and to power terror infrastructure.

They can't seem to apply any noticeable pressure on their own leaders to release Israeli hostages even when - according to their own words - the IDF are bombing and starving them.

These are not the actions of people who wish to show the world they are capable of responsible self governance. Quite the opposite in fact. These are actions that send a very clear message: we would rather die than take responsibility for our actions.

 

[SF Kosmo]

I'm no supporter of Israel's current administration, but at some point one has to also recognize that there are two parties involved in this war. If Israel deserves to be deligitimized for its actions, then tell me: by what logic do Palestinians deserve full sovereignty and self governance?

Broadly speaking everyone deserves the chance to be a citizen of the country they're born in, so I think in that regard they cause of the Palestinian people is taken as legitimate.

But this isn't a zero sum game. It isn't as if Israel becoming a pariah state and facing sanctions makes life better of Palestinians. If anything it puts Israel in a more desperate position with less accountability. It's probably bad for everyone. All the more why this isn't a good path.

They can't seem to run a school system without turning it into a jihadist brainwashing propaganda machine, they can't seem to divert their own limited electricity and fuel to where it is most urgently needed - hospitals and water purification facilities - instead using it for rockets and to power terror infrastructure.

They can't seem to apply any noticeable pressure on their own leaders to release Israeli hostages even when - according to their own words - the IDF are bombing and starving them.

These are not the actions of people who wish to show the world they are capable of responsible self governance. Quite the opposite in fact. These are actions that send a very clear message: we would rather die than take responsibility for our actions.

Hamas is no solution, I don't think anyone here would argue otherwise.

 

[ADiTAR]

lol.

 

[DaciaJC]

lol.

lol, 12 hours? So what, they just skipped lunch?

 

[StreetsofBeige]

lol, 12 hours? So what, they just skipped lunch?

Wow 12 hours. Who knew losing about 1.5 lbs of water weight would be such a statement to the world.

If they really want to show the world, go to bed early, oversleep, and they can add another 12 hours.

 

[BlackTron]

lol, 12 hours? So what, they just skipped lunch?

Imagine actually being in Gaza and knowing that someone went on hunger strike for 12 hours over you

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Am I the only guy in the world who reads about hunger strikes and thinks if people want to starve themselves for a day, week or month, go ahead and who gives a shit?

If anything it’ll do them some good. A lot of people in the world are fat. It’ll actually help their blood pressure and help them fit into old shirts and pants better.