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Hamas terrorists infiltrated Israel. 1400+ killed, 2400+ wounded, 240+ abducted. Israel declares war
- Thread starter ADiTAR
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Trilobit
Member
Swedish agency equates Mossad with terrorist groups(behind paywall in Swedish):
Sydsvenskan.se
Omni.se
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Embearded
Member
Mossad did all these things, just like CIA and every other intelligence agency in the world.
LordOfChaos
Member
Report: Egypt warns Israel Rafah offensive may lead to suspension of peace treaty
Saudis also raise alarm; ground op pledged by Netanyahu in refugee-packed border city draws rebukes even from allies
www.timesofisrael.com
Dozens killed in Rafah airstrikes as full-scale Israeli ground offensive looms
More than a million civilians sheltering in Gaza’s last place of relative safety brace for all-out assault
www.theguardian.com
Cyberpunkd
Member
Is that why all the console warriors are guys? Also same guys that spend incredible amount of time fawning over stupid sport stats of someone that makes 1000x what they do? Just asking.
efyu_lemonardo
May I have a cookie?
Just the other day some idiot woman from California was trying to explain to me on Instagram that these stories are fabricated and that there is no evidence of rape or sexual assault by Hamas.
It makes my blood boil. The arrogance!
efyu_lemonardo
May I have a cookie?
You're thinking about this from a rational western perspective. From the perspective of fundamentalist Islamism, it is absolutely a win to make Israel a pariah state. And that's a central part of Hamas' strategy. Which is why we must not allow them to succeed.
You have to understand - October 7th was meticulously planned to trigger the outrage of the Israeli people, in the same way that 9/11 was meticulously planned to trigger American outrage.
The idea is to use this outrage against Israel on the global political stage. This is absolutely an intentional strategy of Hamas and of Islamism in general - to morally undermine non Muslim countries by provoking internal chaos and anger.
And the fact that so many westerners among the younger generation hate their own countries is proof that the strategy is working.
Whenever you become critical of your own country and culture, remember to ask yourself: what is the alternative offered by Muslim countries and cultures? Is their record cleaner? The answer is always the same - it is significantly worse. This is like the people arguing for Communism when in reality every attempt at it has always been significantly more cruel than Capitalism.
Islamism seeks to spread just enough self-doubt and confusion among the western populous for Islamists to win elections. What happens afterwards? To answer that, just look at every single Muslim country. Islamism is a form of imperialism, and the sooner people understand this, the better.
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$50 says a Starbucks latte isn't considered "food" to these loons.
Smiggs
Member
Oh look, a gaggle of terrorists. It's too bad they won't be treated as such by the authorities, though.
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
Possibly. But they arent at the mall buying shit across all the stores geared to women. The majority of stores in any mall are either unisex or for women. And then there might be a suit and tie store and a couple sports shops tops for guys. Thats it.
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StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
Mount Sinai Hospital is downtown in the heart of University of Toronto, City Hall, Legislative buildings. Thank god I live in the burbs. Mob-laden fuckery is always a downtown thing.
Toronto police investigating demonstration outside of Mount Sinai Hospital after Trudeau calls it 'reprehensible' antisemitism
Prime Minister Justin Trudeau is calling a demonstration – now under police investigation – outside of Toronto's Mount Sinai Hospital on Monday a "reprehensible" display of antisemitism.
www.cp24.com
SF Kosmo
Al Jazeera Special Reporter
This is a weird comment; If Israel is delegitimized on the world stage, it will be because of the actions of the corrupt Netenyahu administration and Israel's far right. Even before the charges of genocide, Netenyahu was facing charges of financial corruption, election interference, and authoritarian attacks on the courts. He is making them look more and more like a banana republic, and has been for some time.
Fundamentalists Islamists and terrorists are probably the main thing that still makes the actions of these people seem legitimate. Without them, it's hard to imagine the dysfunctional nightmare that is Netenyahu's administration surviving all these scandals. In this way, they are on the same side (in fact Netenyahu once said he favored Hamas as a better "enemy" to serve as a foil). Obviously terrorism is a threat of a to the lives and well-being of Israeli citizens, but that isn't the sort of threat I'm talking about, I'm talking about political harm.
Israel has always enjoyed a great deal of sympathy after attacks, as they did immediately after Oct 7 as well. The blowback to this seems to be more about the nature of the response than the existence of a response -- the scale, the civilian casualties, the opposition to humanitarian aid, and a seemiongly endless series of headlines depicting horrifying "bad apple" incidents involving the IDF and various unarmed civilians, all of which are well beyond what we saw reported during past operations like Protective Edge.
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DaciaJC
Gold Member
Hawking Radiation
Member
A massive Hamas data center was just found underneath an UNRWA headquarters building, connected to hundreds of meters of tunnels running between the vicinity of schools and a university.
I agree that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, but I'd say Israel is gradually delivering. And this latest find is a very good example. Wouldn't you agree?
Like the fecking rats they are organizing their terror campaigns from these tunnels.
Feck 'em. Nuke the bastards if you can.
1. Yes, Netanyahu is corrupt, so are most world leaders. But every prime minister from every Zionist party in Israel would've done exactly what he did, may be even more severe.
2. Don't get this point at all. There's merit to blame Netanyahu for propping Hamas, but that was mostly to appease the world as it is. When the US and European Union pushing money down their throat thinking it'll somehow change who terrorists are. It's like you're separating reality for a few seconds and blame it on Netanyahu.
3. There's no blowback to what we're doing in Gaza. Biden is still in the belief that Hamas must be wiped out, and so do other world leaders. Get out of your twitter bubble. There's no proportion or scale in the rule book for 10/7. Israel should have never let in humanitarian aid or gas, if it didn't the war would've been over in 2 months. Endless series of bad apples? only if you're in a twitter bubble of shit conspiracy theories, please provide links or stfu.
And you never provide links prob because all you're spouting is nonsense coming from a progressive demented pov, that's no backed by anything remotely grounded in reality.
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SF Kosmo
Al Jazeera Special Reporter
This is not the slam dunk argument you think it is.
Specifically he said he thought they would better legitimize an escalation in Israel's actions against the people in Gaza.
Remember, I brought that up in response to someone arguing that Hamas is somehow rallying support against Israel. I think it's clearly the opposite in practice and even Netenyahu knows it.
They're facing genocide charges in the UN. It would have been unimaginable in the past, and it could have real consequences to Israel's trade relationships and even military alliances.
No. If you really want to sit here and litigate a bunch of headlines we can do it in DM if you really want. My point here is that there's a lot more press about various war crimes this time around and the optics are bad.
I don't live in a progressive bubble, I'm from an Orthodox Jewish family, I lived in Jerusalem for a short time, I have a great deal of contact with people who share your perspective. But I want you to consider the fact Israeli and religious Jewish media is itself a tightly curated information bubble.
But at the same time, even among a lot of the American Jews I know, there's a real sense that this time is different, that Israel is crossing a Rubicon and that those who supported Israel in the past are finding it difficult to maintain that. And if you're in Israel you might not feel that sea change in the same way, but it's there.
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It's not an argument, it's a fact. And it dismantles your argument that somehow Netanyahu is the cause of all of this.
Link? I know you hate bringing any receipts to what you're saying, but pretty please?
He did say and think that propping Hamas would make sure a Palestinian state will never happen, and his entire direction thru the last 10+ years has been utter cowardice and it was all an act of mr tough guy.
Russia is also dealing with the same charges from Ukraine, it still has world power, trade, and such. The world doesn't give two shits about the UN.
Not to mention the charges were brought up by South Africa, and Germany and other countries are standing with Israel against those bogus charges.
Please DM me. You won't tho, because there's none of this.
The activistic press? The one that is letting go of so much of their work force for activism no one asked for? sure, does anybody but the fake SJWs and woke progressive care? No. Optics are that Hamas needs to be wiped out by any means necessary, and the more they protests next to Jewish places just means it's really not about Israel and about Jew hate in general.
Here's the press for ya. The fucking NYT is crying about an operation in Rafah during Ramadan. Of course they forgot the fact that Hamas terror attack was on a Jewish holiday, but that doesn't matter.
I don't know how you can be a Jew and spout the shit you're spewing, you think that giving the other cheek is gonna aid you in some way? That the optics are gonna change? That antisemites would be less antisemitic if Israel didn't exist? Or if Israel gave a flower to each terrorists and helped it grow?
Your world view is warped if you think that the only Jewish state in the world defending itself, rough as it might be, is somehow wrong. It's not.
I don't care what the consequences of the world might be. Jews were never liked before Israel and antisemites will hate you just as much if Israel never existed. Because it's not about Israel, and it never was.
I also talk to American Jews, I'm on Facebook groups with them, and none share your view. The change is actually the opposite way as far as I'm concerned. A progressive Jew on my feed totally changed their mind after 10/7. I also don't consume just Israeli media.
Fact is, Israel has massive support in the US. Esp with Jews. I guess you're the exception, and you might wanna rethink your life choices that brought you here.
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efyu_lemonardo
May I have a cookie?
The response by Israel is much more severe because the attacks that preceded them were also much more severe.
Attempts to deligitimize Israel in the ICJ are wins for Hamas and the current administration is absolutely partially to blame for this. In fact, Hamas say themselves that Israel's far right is helpful to their cause, with their radical and irresponsible behavior and warmongering cries. Radicalization in general is a cancer of the middle east.
Netanyahu's biggest weakness is that he is unable to unite the Israeli people behind any cause other than war, and he will be remembered very critically for this severe shortcoming and the damage it has caused in Israel's society. He absolutely shares blame with Hamas for the fact that some conspiracy nuts go as far as believing that Israel allowed Oct 7 to happen in order justify a genocide in Gaza.
Important edit: but even then, when you actually lay down - fact for fact - what each side is doing in this conflict, the argument that "both sides are equally to blame" cannot be supported. And even if it could be, you'd see much more anti Hamas sentiment in the streets and in the ICJ. It's absence is a very loud sign that there is a level of moral corruption in this conflict that transcends even the legitimate anger at Netanyahu's government.
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There's no genocide in Gaza, people die in war. The attacks are not systemically trying to kill civilians, they target terrorists.
Netanyahu is a coward and it showed time and again since 2005, where he advocated to keep Hamas in power instead of what we eventually had to do now. Iron Dome wasn't defending us, it was delaying the inevitable.
efyu_lemonardo
May I have a cookie?
I agree, see my important edit. Sorry for not including it initially, I posted prematurely.
darkangel-212559
Banned
Scary morning today for us in the north. Biggest rocket attack yet by Hizbollah. We had 8 rockets come into Safed. They were aimed at the IDF base here. Tragically 7 people were injured and one death. I think all by the army Base. Our hospital also took a close hit with a rocket landing right outside/close by its entrance.
My pregnant wife, our dog and a friend were in our rocket shelter which thank G-D we have in our home, with only 30 seconds once you hear the sirens to get in its a real blessing that we have one in our home.
Hizbollah are scum and I pray that they are swiftly wiped out from the earth very, very soon.
My pregnant wife, our dog and a friend were in our rocket shelter which thank G-D we have in our home, with only 30 seconds once you hear the sirens to get in its a real blessing that we have one in our home.
Hizbollah are scum and I pray that they are swiftly wiped out from the earth very, very soon.
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darkangel-212559
Banned
SF Kosmo
A
ADiTAR
the MOST important thing right now is shalom and achdus. Those are the things that will protect us and help bring the exile to an end. Religious or not, it's entirely irrelevant. These things exist and have power. The more Jews that unite the more it weakens Hamas and Hizbollah. Teshuva also is a huge huge help. I'm talking for myself here, but I think that every Jew should be absolutely doing a real Cheshbon Ha Nefesh right now. Much love.
SF Kosmo
Al Jazeera Special Reporter
I think we might be talking about a different "this." The "this" I am talking about is Israel's loss of credibility among the international community and overseas public, something you don't even seem to acknowledge is a thing.
The delta between your objection and your restatement here seem too subtle for me to parse. I think we're enough on the same page that it doesn't matter.
Russia is a superpower, Israel is more or less a client state of the United States. Russia is certainly suffering consequences from their Ukraine antics, but they're not vulnerable in the same way as Israel.
I want Israel to exist, but I don't think they will much longer if they continue to head down this path. I think Israel's right wing has gone mad with arrogance and can't see that there are limits to what can be done.
Whether or not you want to call what is happening "genocide" or "ethnic cleansing," I regularly hear Israelis I know call for both, who want everyone in Gaza to be wiped out or pushed out of the country, and who blindly believe the world will support them in that effort.
The problem is that Israel won't exist if they become politically toxic in the United States.
Kar
Member
SF Kosmo
Israel doesn't give a shit about what the world thinks post October 7."World support", "politically toxic", it's all diplomatic nonsense. Israel will do what it has to do regardless what any country thinks.
Israel has a historic opportunity to deal with those pieces of trash (Hamas and their like) and move the rest of the Palestinians to some place else.
SF Kosmo
Al Jazeera Special Reporter
Again, Israel is essentially a client state of the US, surrounded by enemies. They have to give a shit about what the world thinks. Those that fail to do so imperil the existence of the nation.
"World support", "politically toxic", it's all diplomatic nonsense. Israel will do what it has to do regardless what any country thinks.
Israel has a historic opportunity to deal with those pieces of trash (Hamas and their like) and move the rest of the Palestinians to some place else.
"Moving the Palestinians to someplace else" is literally ethnic cleansing, it's considered a very serious war crime.
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Israel has only grown with credibility since Oct 7th. Showing the world who Hamas is, who the UN is, UNRWA, etc. I donno who you're talking about besides South Africa which has always supported terrorists like Hamas. Meanwhile, Japan, Sweden, Italy, US, UK, France, and more all suspended their UNRWA funding after Israel showed evidence of links to Hamas. Please do tell me how we're losing credibility?
You're stating the end of Israel as if it's a fact, so lemme ask, do you think Israel is committing genocide in Gaza? To me that answer will basically reveal where you get your information from.
There's no genocide or ethnic cleansing in Gaza. You've given zero evidence to any of your claims, you never DMd me anything, because there's nothing to it. Show me the receipts or shut up. I'm also waiting for the endless crime against humanity IDF is doing, you gathering that up too I hope.
The problem is you. A Jew who justifies Jihadists by saying "As a Jew". Fuck that. The only reason Israel won't exist is because of Jews like you who think they know better because they talk to "Israelis". No one in Israel wanted this war, Hamas fucked us, and now they are finding out what happens when you do.
You're in a bubble, haven't brought any links to verify your unsubstantiated claims, and clearly think that being a Jew for Ceasefire will somehow make you a better person. It won't. You're not.
Kar
Member
Population transfer was considered as an acceptable solution to the problems of ethnic conflict until around World War II and even for a time afterward.
Coincidentally, It became a serious war crime at about the same time Israel was founded.
darkangel-212559
Banned
SF Kosmo
Don't think by becoming less supportive of Israel and by siding more with the left will save you from anti semitism. History proves that it doesn't work. There is no safety in trying to side with those that hate you, whether by sharing their rhetoric or by trying to live less as a Jew, it hasn't and will never work.
A
ADiTAR
put it in another way, siding with the anti semites won't protect you from them. Because ultimately what it comes down to, and what has been shown time and time again during this war around the world, that those against the Jews are against ALL Jews. The hatred is easy to see, the age old Jewish conspiracies are being shouted from the roof tops and repeated in the Western media. When you repeat this rhetoric, think about precisely where it is coming from and why it is coming from.
Remember pre Holocaust. Those Jews that did their best to enter into German society at the highest of levels were still in the end taken to the Gas Chambers. That lesson is one that needs to be applied in our own lives every day.
SF Kosmo
Al Jazeera Special Reporter
I would speculate that their goal is to render Gaza unlivable and then to forcibly relocate Palestinians to another country, which would meet the definition of ethnic cleansing, but it remains to be seen if the second part happens. I don't think "genocide" is the intent but the level of civilian casualties we're seeing should be unacceptable in modern warfare.
Just chill man, I am running errands this morning I will get to it.
Where am I justifying Jihadists? I said nothing even remotely adjacent to that. I can criticize the actions of the Netenyahu administration without being anti-Israel or antisemitic, let alone "supporting jihad."
You make it difficult to have a conversation when you just want to wildly strawman like that.
I said nothing of the sort. I'm not trying to please anti-semites, nor am I trying to "side with" any particular agenda, I'm just giving my honest view of the situation. Obviously I worry about anti-semitism, and I don't think what's happening makes life better for Jews.
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Reizo Ryuu
Member
He didn't ask you if it "meets a definition of ethnic cleansing", which is something completely different, he asked you if you think Israel is committing genocide; it's a yes or no question.
SF Kosmo
Al Jazeera Special Reporter
I think I was pretty clear, I think the goal is to displace Gazans, not to eradicate, and ethnic cleansing would be an accurate description if that comes to pass.
I also think civilian casualty rates in excess of 80% are unacceptable in modern warfare regardless of if it rises to the standard for genocide.
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Reizo Ryuu
Member
No, he didn't ask you to speculate on some future hypothetical and provide a definition of that hypothetical , he asked you specifically if you think Israel is committing genocide. That's yes or no.
I think for Ethnic Cleasning to be an accurate term it would have to be Israel straight up killing Gaza civilians or removing them from WITHIN Israel. Driving Gazans to the border and forcing them to relocate is retaliation for barbaric atrocity and is probably the most humane response possible, from the Israeli POV and, given a few years, from the Gaza one as well (as opposed to just wiping them out where they stand).
This problem has been allowed to fester for DECADES, by the surrounding nations and Gaza inhabitants themselves, and it keeps costing Israel. Gazans have allowed an ideology to so thoroughly permeate their society that is so inimical towards Israel that even other mostly aligned countries can't tolerate them. The only viable solution is relocating them with the goal of dispersing and diluting them to the point where they are just absorbed into a more tolerant and progressive society and their identity as "Gazan/Palestinian" is erased as a failed zealot movement much like Nazi or KKK "identity" is treated today (with varying levels of success of course).
Nonehxc
Member
They're gonna fuck them up into either Jordan or Egypt and let their Arabros deal with them. Then wait for the idiots around the world to chant 'Israel is genocidizing Palestine!' while they're sitting on Sabbath making curls of their ball hairs and drinking a fine Syrah like 'huh? What?'' all meanwhile Egypt and Hezbollah are grinding them into a fine paste.
efyu_lemonardo
May I have a cookie?
Where are you getting that number from?
Embearded
Member
80% civilian casualties?
How is that calculated?
Also in general, how do you distinguish civilians from military when they don't wear uniforms and anyone could potentially be armed?
SF Kosmo
Al Jazeera Special Reporter
The IDF itself claims a 66% civilian casualty rate, but this seems to have been done by essentially counting every male adult as a combatant and rounding down. It's also more than double the civilian casualty rate of past wars in the region, so even this extremely generous methodology reveals a massive shift in Israel's consideration for civilian casualties.
Euro-Med Human Rights Monitor claims 90%. The Gaza MoH (which has been regarded as broadly accurate in their reporting for past conflicts) reports 70% of those dead are women and children, without giving an estimate of civilian/combatant. The number of CONFIRMED combatants killed is below 2% or something, but that's more the upper bound than a fair way to estimate.
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efyu_lemonardo
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Thank you. I've seen all these estimates as well as others. The truth is we don't know the exact ratios, but I agree with you that they are probably higher than in previous conflicts.
Where we don't seem to agree is on why they are higher. I believe the kind of operation the IDF is conducting, thoroughly searching for, uncovering and destroying terrorist infrastructure at a much more granular level than ever before, is unfortunately bound to result in greater civilian losses and greater damage to civilian infrastructure.
Besides the unprecedented level of granularity, an additional reason I believe greater damage is sadly to be expected, is because we know for a fact it is very difficult to distinguish between civilian and terrorist infrastructure in Gaza, just as it is very difficult to distinguish between innocents and Hamas supporters. This is the main challenge of this war and has been from day one. And when even the UN is implicated in terrorism (not to mention several international news agencies too, and also other organizations operating in the west bank), it is a very difficult challenge indeed. Which is why I consider Hamas' policy of intentionally blurring the boundaries of war a crime against humanity of the highest order. In a just world, this would be the main trial currently being conducted by the ICJ.
Your belief, as far as I understand it, is that much of the destruction we are witnessing in Gaza is unnecessary to achieve Israel's stated goals for this war, and that a different government would have found a way to achieve these goals while causing significantly less destruction. You are of course entitled to your belief, and it's possible that when thorough investigations are conducted at the end of this campaign, stronger evidence will be revealed which supports your claim.
But I think attributing the destruction caused by Israel's operations predominantly to Israeli malice rather than to other reasons (including even disfunction, confusion and fear) requires a bigger leap than it does in the case of Hamas. In their case, there is ample and continually growing evidence of purposefully engaging in a malicious manner which magnifies risk and harm to civilian infrastructure and civilian life in Gaza. And doing so as a matter of principle, based on well documented and consistent ideology.
Constructive criticism of Israel during this time should, in my opinion, keep these facts in mind. As such, it should be centered around practical ways Israel and the IDF can do a better job. For the sake of our hostages, for the sake of Israel's international standing, and of course, for the sake of innocent Palestinians and the hope of a better future. An example of what I consider constructive criticism is the suggestion, given some months ago, of flooding the tunnels with sea water in order to force Hamas operatives out of hiding and destroy their infrastructure while minimizing collateral damage. The argument that this will also destroy the Gaza aquifer, or that it would destabilize the ground above to a dangerous extent, is a valid one. I don't have sufficient information to say if this is an effective and humane strategy or not, but it is an example of a constructive discussion rather than a non constructive one.
Unfortunately much of the criticism directed at Israel (including the ongoing ICJ trial itself) is not constructive, and when you add to that the insufficient criticism and sanctions against other parties in this conflict (be they Israel's enemies like Hamas, the Houthis in Yemen, and the Iranian government, or other involved parties which are failing to demonstrate an appropriate level of accountability like Egypt and the UN), the resulting situation is very morally murky and troubling, to say the least.
This complicates things significantly because it makes evident the fact that corruption and hypocrisy are embedded in this conflict on all levels, which makes singling out Israel even more problematic, and also more dangerous to Israel.
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Cyberpunkd
Member
Read about Shoah, then come back to lecture. I'm sure no matter the party all of Israeli leadership is forever in agreement of not letting Holocaust happen ever again. If they feel the existence of Jewish nation threatened there will be scorched earth, nothing more.
NeoLed
Member
What is the civilian casualty rates of October 7th again?
The Stig
Member
DragoonKain
Neighbours from Hell
Wild thread.
efyu_lemonardo
May I have a cookie?
Scum of the earth. The entire UN should be held accountable in a criminal court.
SF Kosmo
are you beginning to understand how difficult it is to tell who is a civilian and who is a terrorist in this war?Edit: just to remove all doubt, the identity of the person in this video was independently verified by the Washington Post:
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