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[RustyNails]

I think what Dominican Power is saying is that one of CNN's segments was titled "Is Hamas controlling the media?"

Oh wow. I must see this segment. This is through the looking glass.

 

[RustyNails]

I understand that this is an impossible issue to actually fully grasp, but is there a list of 5-10 best books/editorials/papers that present an "objective" (as much as someone can be on this situation) about the Israel/Palestine conflict?

This is a basic and a good summary of the conflict. As good as one can summarize a 6 decade old flashpoint with a few paragraphs.

As for articles and books, I would recommend anything from Uri Avnery, Noam Chomsky, Norman Finkelstein and Ilan Pappe.

 

[nomis]

Pardon me while I evacuate the contents of my stomach

 

[RustyNails]

Yesterday's protest in Chicago

 

[hydragonwarrior]

So like, is Israel lacking in satellite technology to figure out where rockets are being fired from? Why not take it to the source rather than high risk locations where there are civilians, like for example, a fucking building or hospital?

And I imagine a rocket that is capable of making it all the way to Israel isn't exactly the easiest to hide.

 

[maharg]

So like, is Israel lacking in satellite technology to figure out where rockets are being fired from? Why not take it to the source rather than high risk locations where there are civilians, like for example, a fucking building or hospital?

And I imagine a rocket that is capable of making it all the way to Israel isn't exactly the easiest to hide.

The launchers are, as far as I understand it, basically hacked together metal frames that can be moved quite easily. The range is a factor of the rocket, not so much the launcher. But you basically can't really aim them at all with the launchers Hamas uses.

 

[hydragonwarrior]

The launchers are, as far as I understand it, basically hacked together metal frames that can be moved quite easily. The range is a factor of the rocket, not so much the launcher. But you basically can't really aim them at all with the launchers Hamas uses.

I guess you can still estimate the trajectory and trace it back to the source... but i dunno; if it's an isolated spot, I'd be happy if Israel returned fire to the source. But then I'm thinking the extremist portions of hamas fire from crowded areas, giving the IDF the excuse to fire into crowded areas...

Man this whole thing is a mess.

 

[maharg]

I guess you can still estimate the trajectory and trace it back to the source... but i dunno; if it's an isolated spot, I'd be happy if Israel returned fire to the source. But then I'm thinking the extremist portions of hamas fire from crowded areas, giving the IDF the excuse to fire into crowded areas...

Man this whole thing is a mess.

Gaza is about a little bigger and a little less dense than San Francisco (the city, not the region). There's not a lot of it that's not at least a little bit crowded.

 

[soul creator]

Every time I hear about the "they use human shields, it's not our fault innocents die!" rationale, it makes me think of some bank robbers (maybe even super evil bank robbers who have already killed others) holding a bunch of people hostage, and then the police force comes and blows up the bank, killing everyone inside. Police chief then does a press conference saying "well, the robbers were using human shields, so it's not like it's our fault. We were forced to blow them up too, to stop the robbers. Next question."

Like...would anyone ever take that explanation seriously? Am I missing something? I mean, even if we're saying Hamas is the most evilest group of people of all time for hiding behind innocents...that's still not the innocents fault. And firing back rockets is not some immutable fact of the universe, so the idea that you're "forced" to do it seems odd.

 

[Zaph]

Every time I hear about the "they use human shields, it's not our fault innocents die!" rationale, it makes me think of some bank robbers (maybe even super evil bank robbers who have already killed others) holding a bunch of people hostage, and then the police force comes and blows up the bank, killing everyone inside. Police chief then does a press conference saying "well, the robbers were using human shields, so it's not like it's our fault. We were forced to blow them up too, to stop the robbers. Next question."

Like...would anyone ever take that explanation seriously? Am I missing something? I mean, even if we're saying Hamas is the most evilest group of people of all time for hiding behind innocents...that's still not the innocents fault. And firing back rockets is not some immutable fact of the universe, so the idea that you're "forced" to do it seems odd.

Even police stop car chases when the stakes get too high. Sometimes you have to accept that getting what you want (the "bad guy") isn't worth the risk to others. I doubt the Israeli government will ever understand this.

 

[A Black Falcon]

Even police stop car chases when the stakes get too high. Sometimes you have to accept that getting what you want (the "bad guy") isn't worth the risk to others. I doubt the Israeli government will ever understand this.

The police would not stop a car chase if they were chasing a known murderer or serial killer, though, and that's what this is like, not some potentially nonlethal thing like bank robbery.

 

[Timedog]

Even police stop car chases when the stakes get too high. Sometimes you have to accept that getting what you want (the "bad guy") isn't worth the risk to others. I doubt the Israeli government will ever understand this.

But it isn't just the bad guys that they want, as they've proved over and over again. There's nothing for them to understand. They want to harm palestinians whether they are combatants or not. They prove this by not letting humanitarian aid through, using illegal white phosphorus, sniping ambulances, saying they don't give a shit if journalists die, taking more settlements, not allowing palestinians rights, etc.

 

[dabig2]

The police would not stop a car chase if they were chasing a known murderer or serial killer, though, and that's what this is like, not some potentially nonlethal thing like bank robbery.

Said cops also wouldn't blow up a couple school buses that are in the way to get to said serial killer either.

 

[A Black Falcon]

Said cops also wouldn't blow up a couple school buses that are in the way to get to said serial killer either.

Israel tries to not blow up civilians, but when you're using rockets, bombs, etc., you can only be so accurate. What do you want, Israel to occupy Gaza with an army, so they could go after the terrorists in close? I'm sure that would go just great for both sides! (Not really.)

 

[Timedog]

The police would not stop a car chase if they were chasing a known murderer or serial killer, though, and that's what this is like, not some potentially nonlethal thing like bank robbery.

Where in protocol for any police department does it say that the rules are different if the suspect is thought to have killed someone?

Israel tries to not blow up civilians, but when you're using rockets, bombs, white phosphorus, metal dart bombs, firing directly at ambulances, attacking humanitarian aid vehicles, blowing up apartment buildings, etc., you can only be so accurate. What do you want, Israel to occupy Gaza with an army, so they could go after the terrorists in close? I'm sure that would go just great for both sides! (Not really.)

FTFY

 

[soul creator]

Israel tries to not blow up civilians, but when you're using rockets, bombs, etc., you can only be so accurate. What do you want, Israel to occupy Gaza with an army, so they could go after the terrorists in close? I'm sure that would go just great for both sides! (Not really.)

But as I mentioned, using rockets/bombs/occupation/etc. is not some immutable fact of the universe. It's the choice of a government and military to respond in that way. They can also make the choice of taking the high road, primarily focus on diplomacy (which, coincidentally, is the only way things will be fixed, since each side bombing the other for 50+ years obviously hasn't solved anything), and get the international community on their side.

Simply pointing at them and saying "they made us do this " is a laughable defense to use when innocent people are dying. Most people don't take Hamas seriously when they use the same rationale, so I'm not sure why Israel's government should be taken seriously when they say it.

 

[Zaph]

But it isn't just the bad guys that they want, as they've proved over and over again. There's nothing for them to understand. They want to harm palestinians whether they are combatants or not. They prove this by not letting humanitarian aid through, using illegal white phosphorus, sniping ambulances, saying they don't give a shit if journalists die, taking more settlements, not allowing palestinians rights, etc.

Oh, believe me, you're preaching to the choir. My point was even if you give the Israel's 100% the benefit of the doubt, believe ever piece of propaganda they put out and think Hamas are completely unjust in firing those rockets - they're still completely devoid of humanity for responding in the way they have.

 

[A Black Falcon]

But as I mentioned, using rockets/bombs/occupation/etc. is not some immutable fact of the universe. It's the choice of a government and military to respond in that way. They can also make the choice of taking the high road, primarily focus on diplomacy (which, coincidentally, is the only way things will be fixed, since each side bombing the other for 50+ years obviously hasn't solved anything), and get the international community on their side.

Simply pointing at them and saying "they made us do this " is a laughable defense to use when innocent people are dying. Most people don't take Hamas seriously when they use the same rationale, so I'm not sure why Israel's government should be taken seriously when they say it.

Hamas is not the kind of group that you can reason with with diplomacy. Also, when they attack you with rocket barrages, of course you have to respond with military force. You'll never end terrorist rocket attacks by trying to reason with them.

Sure, Israel should be doing more to encourage the West Bank government to make a separate peace, but with Netanyahu in charge that's not likely soon. It's certainly impossible as long as terrorists are attacking Israel, of course.

 

[Aaron]

Israel tries to not blow up civilians, but when you're using rockets, bombs, etc., you can only be so accurate. What do you want, Israel to occupy Gaza with an army, so they could go after the terrorists in close? I'm sure that would go just great for both sides! (Not really.)

They bombed a hospital. They are very much trying to blow up civilians.

 

[LNBL]

They bombed a hospital. They are very much trying to blow up civilians.

(Gaza) – Israel should cease attacks that cause loss of civilian life and property in violation of the laws of war. Human Rights Watch investigated eight Israeli airstrikes that were apparent violations of the laws of war before the ground offensive that began on July 17, 2014. The findings and reports of numerous new civilian casualties heightened concerns for the safety of civilians during the ground offensive.

“After Israeli missiles killed boys on a beach and repeatedly struck a well-marked hospital, one can only be gravely concerned for the safety of civilians caught up in the ground offensive,” said Eric Goldstein, deputy Middle East and North Africa director. “Israel needs to do more than try to explain away unlawful attacks – it needs to stop them.”

The attacks Human Rights Watch investigated include a missile attack that killed four boys on a Gaza City pier and wounded three others, multiple strikes over several days on a hospital for paralyzed and elderly patients, attacks on an apparent civilian residence and media worker’s car, and four previously documented strikes. In many, if not all, of these cases, Human Rights Watch found no evidence of a military target. Israeli forces’ failure to direct attacks at a military target violates the laws of war. Israeli forces may also have knowingly or recklessly attacked people who were clearly civilians, such as young boys, and civilian structures, including a hospital – laws-of-war violations that are indicative of war crimes.

Israeli airstrikes and tank fire hit the Wafa Rehabilitation Hospital on three days from July 11 to July 17, wounding four patients and staff. While Israel gave various warnings before the attacks, the chronically ill, elderly, and paralyzed patients – none of them mobile – could not be moved quickly or without grave risk to their health.

The laws of war place obligations on all parties to ensure that the wounded and sick receive medical care. Hospitals have special legal protections and may be attacked only if being used to commit acts harmful to the enemy. Israeli claims that armed groups were launching rockets 100 meters from the hospital was insufficient justification for repeatedly striking the hospital. The warnings did not remedy the illegality of repeatedly striking a hospital without a lawful military justification. The fact that Israel used accurate missiles, as well as direct tank fire, yet still struck the hospital, suggests intentional or reckless attacks on the hospital, which are war crimes.

Israel has provided no justification for the attack on the Ghannam home, as far as Human Rights Watch has been able to determine. If its forces struck the house without verifying a military target, the attack was an unlawful attack on a civilian structure. If the house was attacked to punish the Ghannam family for the involvement of relatives in attacks on Israel, it was a form of collective punishment in violation of the laws of war.

http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/07/22/gaza-airstrike-deaths-raise-concerns-ground-offensive

In many, if not all, of these cases, Human Rights Watch found no evidence of a military target. Israeli forces’ failure to direct attacks at a military target violates the laws of war. Israeli forces may also have knowingly or recklessly attacked people who were clearly civilians, such as young boys, and civilian structures, including a hospital – laws-of-war violations that are indicative of war crimes.

There you have it. No evidence found of those places being military targets.

 

[Zen]

The police would not stop a car chase if they were chasing a known murderer or serial killer, though, and that's what this is like, not some potentially nonlethal thing like bank robbery.

Nice to see you continuing your pattern of not responding to people once they have cornered you, figuratively speaking. :\

 

[TheStruggler]

just my god....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63olgFfAnN0#t=163

this is the world we live in....

 

[RustyNails]

Hamas is not the kind of group that you can reason with with diplomacy.

But what about the instances where Hamas did try to reason diplomacy?

 

[m_shortpants]

But what about the instances where Hamas did try to reason diplomacy?

..uhhhhh HAMAS CHARTER DESTRUCTION SMASH

On that note, the Hamas charter makes me think of those messages you'd get from 12 year olds on Xbox Live who would threaten to get you banned because their uncles worked at Microsoft. Baseless threats.

 

[phalestine]

Yesterday's protest in Chicago

Did you end up going??

 

[tafer]

http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/07/22/gaza-airstrike-deaths-raise-concerns-ground-offensive

In many, if not all, of these cases, Human Rights Watch found no evidence of a military target. Israeli forces’ failure to direct attacks at a military target violates the laws of war. Israeli forces may also have knowingly or recklessly attacked people who were clearly civilians, such as young boys, and civilian structures, including a hospital – laws-of-war violations that are indicative of war crimes.

There you have it. No evidence found of those places being military targets.

I really don't like to post on this sort of threads, but that's incredible... absolutely sickening.

 

[RustyNails]

Did you end up going??

Couldn't

Was planning on going with relatives and friends. There was a smaller one today outside the Israel Embassy.

 

[Slurpy2k20]

This is a basic and a good summary of the conflict. As good as one can summarize a 6 decade old flashpoint with a few paragraphs.

As for articles and books, I would recommend anything from Uri Avnery, Noam Chomsky, Norman Finkelstein and Ilan Pappe.

Really, I skimmed through it and found a lot of it to be bullshit and irresponsible journalism.

This part, specifically:

The latest round of fighting was sparked when members of Hamas in the West Bank murdered three Israeli youths who were studying there on June 10.

Wow. Not a shred of evidence has been presented that Hamas is responsible, apart from Israeli accusations. More evidence points to the fact that it was a false flag operation, especially since Israel KNEW they were dead for weeks, yet pretended they did not to stir up more hatred and hysteria, all the while blaming Hamas and mass arresting hundreds of people as provocation.

That statement of fact, for me invalidates the entire objectivity of that piece.

 

[Zen]

Wow. Not a shred of evidence has been presented that Hamas is responsible, apart from Israeli accusations. More evidence points to the fact that it was a false flag operation, especially since Israel KNEW they were dead for weeks, yet pretended they did not to stir up more hatred and hysteria, all the while blaming Hamas and mass arresting hundreds of people as provocation.

That statement of fact, for me invalidates the entire objectivity of that piece.

Can we get sources on this please?

 

[thepotatoman]

Can we get sources on this please?

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/11/w...d-as-israel-silences-press-over-killings.html

Basically they did not allow the recording of a 911 style emergency call from one of the kidnapped victims to come out or be reported on for weeks. That recording apparently ended with gunshots and groans of pain, suggesting they were likely killed right there.

I don't think that's proof that Hamas didn't do the kidnapping, but I think it is proof that Israel capitalized on the tragedy to try and drum up as much nationalism as possible.

 

[A Black Falcon]

Where in protocol for any police department does it say that the rules are different if the suspect is thought to have killed someone?

What? Of course they'd treat those two situations differently! Just chasing your average person who did some minor traffic violation, sure, once the chase gets dangerous some PDs would quit... but chasing a seriously dangerous murderer? No way would they.

FTFY

That's just more of "they're firing at civilian targets", which of course they are only doing because that's where Hamas is hiding.

If they ignored Hamas, we'd have more people in Israel getting killed by rockets and infiltrators.

But as I mentioned, using rockets/bombs/occupation/etc. is not some immutable fact of the universe. It's the choice of a government and military to respond in that way. They can also make the choice of taking the high road, primarily focus on diplomacy (which, coincidentally, is the only way things will be fixed, since each side bombing the other for 50+ years obviously hasn't solved anything), and get the international community on their side.

Simply pointing at them and saying "they made us do this " is a laughable defense to use when innocent people are dying. Most people don't take Hamas seriously when they use the same rationale, so I'm not sure why Israel's government should be taken seriously when they say it.

This is completely absurd! Diplomacy, while they're shelling you and have a "all Jews must die" clause in their charter, and have never been serious about negotiating, unlike Fatah? Don't be absurd, it's never going to happen. Or at least, it'll only happen if Hamas gets what it wants -- and end to the blockade so that they can rearm with more and better weapons and replenish their cash reserves, so as to kill a lot more Israeli civilians the next time they attack, which they are certain to do sooner or later as long as they control Gaza.

Taking the high road would be great, and I always strongly believe that negotiations should come before war and that war should be avoided whenever possible, but when you're being attacked, that choice has been taken out of your hands, unfortunately. After this ends maybe things can get back to trying to work towards a real peace.

Can we get sources on this please?

False flag operation? The source would be the delusions of Israel-haters.

 

[Toxi]

EDIT: Sorry, I was just angry.

 

[A Black Falcon]

That's a nice way to wash your hands clean of the blood of hundreds of innocent people: Just deny all responsibility and autonomy and say you're only doing what you have to.

Seriously, people, maybe someday realize that you're all buying into Hamas' plans... their goal is to have a lot of Palestinian civilians die, so that the international outcry finally forces Israel to give up on its blockade, so that they can get better weapons for their next attack. That is their goal, and it's stuff like this (stuff this thread is loaded with) that might help them achieve it someday.

Yes, of course Israel needs to do more direct moves towards peace. I've been critical of Netanyahu. But Israel has a right to defend itself from attack.

 

[m_shortpants]

Seriously, people, maybe someday realize that you're all buying into Hamas' plans... their goal is to have a lot of Palestinian civilians die, so that the international outcry finally forces Israel to give up on its blockade, so that they can get better weapons for their next attack. That is their goal, and it's stuff like this that might help them achieve it someday.

Israel using flechette shells for maximum casualties doesn't contribute to this at all.

 

[RustyNails]

Seriously, people, maybe someday realize that you're all buying into Hamas' plans... their goal is to have a lot of Palestinian civilians die, so that the international outcry finally forces Israel to give up on its blockade, so that they can get better weapons for their next attack. That is their goal, and it's stuff like this (stuff this thread is loaded with) that might help them achieve it someday.

This would make sense, had Hamas not agreed to 67 borders.

 

[Dominican Power]

just my god....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63olgFfAnN0#t=163

this is the world we live in....

They're so blatant with it. They're no worse than RT with the manipulation of the truth.

 

[sindbadthesailor]

Seriously, people, maybe someday realize that you're all buying into Hamas' plans... their goal is to have a lot of Palestinian civilians die, so that the international outcry finally forces Israel to give up on its blockade, so that they can get better weapons for their next attack. That is their goal, and it's stuff like this (stuff this thread is loaded with) that might help them achieve it someday.

Yes, of course Israel needs to do more direct moves towards peace. I've been critical of Netanyahu. But Israel has a right to defend itself from attack.

Well, since civilian deaths play into Hamas's hand, Netanyahu sure is one heck of a moron then as everything he's done has led to more and more of them.

But anyway, yeah, keep condoning wholesale slaughter of civilians as if it's nothing. That'll win you a whole lot of support from the non-sociopaths out there.

 

[Toxi]

Seriously, people, maybe someday realize that you're all buying into Hamas' plans... their goal is to have a lot of Palestinian civilians die, so that the international outcry finally forces Israel to give up on its blockade, so that they can get better weapons for their next attack. That is their goal, and it's stuff like this (stuff this thread is loaded with) that might help them achieve it someday.

Yes, of course Israel needs to do more direct moves towards peace. I've been critical of Netanyahu. But Israel has a right to defend itself from attack.

I'm not sure which is the dumbest thing here.

• The idea that Hamas is trying to get Israel to kill as many civilians as possible so the international outcry (Which Israel rarely listened to before) will convince Israel to give up the blockade.
• The idea that Israel is still killing tons of Gaza civilians even though they should be aware of this supposed goal, even using weapons designed to kill larger numbers of bystanders (Flechettes).
• The idea that bombing hospitals and butchering families is just Israel exercising a right to defend itself from attack.

 

[RustyNails]

I'm not sure which is the dumbest thing here.

• The idea that Hamas is trying to get Israel to kill as many civilians as possible so the international outcry (Which Israel rarely listened to before) will convince Israel to give up the blockade.
• The idea that Israel is still killing tons of Gaza civilians even though they should be aware of this supposed goal, even using weapons designed to kill larger numbers of bystanders (Flechettes).
• The idea that bombing hospitals and butchering families is just Israel exercising a right to defend itself from attack.

One more

• Benjamin Netanyahu understands that Hamas wants him to bomb as many civilians as he can so they can advertise the dead bodies, but he does it anyway.

 

[A Black Falcon]

I'm not sure which is the dumbest thing here.

• The idea that Hamas is trying to get Israel to kill as many civilians as possible so the international outcry (Which Israel rarely listened to before) will convince Israel to give up the blockade.

• 
  It's not just international outcry which would get Israel to do that, of course. It's the political and economic pressure some are trying to use.
  
  

  [*]The idea that Israel is still killing tons of Gaza civilians even though they should be aware of this supposed goal, even using weapons designed to kill larger numbers of bystanders (Flechettes).

  Israel doesn't kill people randomly like you say, and they do what they can to minimize civilian casualties -- but since Hamas of course puts its weapons around civilians, uses human shields (like that town just recently where the people weren't allowed to leave before the warned Israeli attack), there's really nothing they can do but accept that some civilians will be killed. Israel uses restraint, but isn't willing to not attack at all, because that would give Hamas carte blanche to maintain a constant rocket barrage at all times, obviously something which cannot be tolerated.
  
  

  [*]The idea that bombing hospitals and butchering families is just Israel exercising a right to defend itself from attack.

  Obviously killing families is accidental. As for that one hospital, Hamas was operating close to it. Should they have attacked, I don't know, but that's the reasoning, and I'm sure it is accurate.
  
  

  One more
  

  • Benjamin Netanyahu understands that Hamas wants him to bomb as many civilians as he can so they can advertise the dead bodies, but he does it anyway.

  I don't think Netanyahu cares much about what critics in the international community say, mostly because none of them have important positions (remember, no nations, not even Arab ones, are demanding Israel halt immediately, putting sanctions on Israel, or anything of the sort; they'd all rather not support Islamic terrorism right now, for sure!). If the critics' so-far limited success at economically punishing Israel gets more effective in the future, though, pressure to abandon the blockade could get much harder to ignore -- which, if Hamas is left in place, would be a recipe for disaster as soon as they rearm with better rockets.
  
  

  Well, since civilian deaths play into Hamas's hand, Netanyahu sure is one heck of a moron then as everything he's done has led to more and more of them.

  I certainly think that israel would be better off with a more moderate government, yes. Netanyahu has done plenty of things which have set back the peace process, most notably his absolute refusal to even consider slowing settlement expansion, and his reluctance to seriously talk peace with Fatah as well. In that Fatah did give him the perfect excuse to cut off relations when they formed their "unity government", though -- wanting to keep Hamas out of the West Bank is a natural reason to cut relations. Regardless I do think that the US was right to say that the unity government should be given some time, while watched closely for signs of extremists gaining anything. Netanyahu disagreed though, and I'm sure the Palestinians knew he would. Why form the unity government anyway, then, when you know it'll set back peace? Anyway, as this war shows, it's Hamas who still really controls Gaza, not Fatah through the "unity government".
  
  

  But anyway, yeah, keep condoning wholesale slaughter of civilians as if it's nothing. That'll win you a whole lot of support from the non-sociopaths out there.

  The only side who wants to commit "wholesale slaughter of civilians" is Hamas. There are extremists in Israel who want to kill Palestinians, but they aren't politically important, and the military doesn't follow their orders. I'm sure there are some bad incidents, as there always are in war, but always remember who started this -- Hamas did. They started this, knowing the general trend of what would happen.

 

[m_shortpants]

I'm sure there are some bad incidents, as there always are in war, but always remember who started this -- Hamas did. They started this, knowing the general trend of what would happen.

You keep on telling yourself that buddy.

 

[Aaron]

The only side who wants to commit "wholesale slaughter of civilians" is Hamas. There are extremists in Israel who want to kill Palestinians, but they aren't politically important, and the military doesn't follow their orders. I'm sure there are some bad incidents, as there always are in war, but always remember who started this -- Hamas did. They started this, knowing the general trend of what would happen.

This is factually incorrect in every possible way. Why bother respond if you're only going to do it with lies? I just don't understand how you can call the dilberate bombing of homes and hospitals as 'incidents.' Would you apply the same label to the London blitz in WW2? Aside from the fact that Israel actually started this, no matter where you want to pin the start point as, why does that even matter? Germany didn't start the first World War, but they sure as shit deserve blame for a lot of what happened during it. The fact they didn't cause the assassination that triggered those events doesn't absolve them of all wrongdoing.

 

[Toxi]

I don't think Netanyahu cares much about what critics in the international community say, mostly because none of them have important positions (remember, no nations, not even Arab ones, are demanding Israel halt immediately, putting sanctions on Israel, or anything of the sort; they'd all rather not support Islamic terrorism right now, for sure!). If the critics' so-far limited success at economically punishing Israel gets more effective in the future, though, pressure to abandon the blockade could get much harder to ignore -- which, if Hamas is left in place, would be a recipe for disaster as soon as they rearm with better rockets.

I'm impressed by the twisted logic required to both claim the critics in the international community aren't able to economically pressure Israel (So Netanyahu isn't a moron for playing into this Hamas plan) and to claim those critics are able to economically pressure Israel (So your Hamas plan actually makes sense).

 

[Ashes]

The only side who wants to commit "wholesale slaughter of civilians" is Hamas.

The only side who commits wholesale slaughter of civilians is the IDF.

The threat you speak of is largely psychological. To what degree you may ask? 99.99% psychological. That's the ratio of rockets to civilian injuries. That's injuries not deaths.

 

[RustyNails]

I don't think Netanyahu cares much about what critics in the international community say, mostly because none of them have important positions (remember, no nations, not even Arab ones, are demanding Israel halt immediately, putting sanctions on Israel, or anything of the sort; they'd all rather not support Islamic terrorism right now, for sure!). If the critics' so-far limited success at economically punishing Israel gets more effective in the future, though, pressure to abandon the blockade could get much harder to ignore -- which, if Hamas is left in place, would be a recipe for disaster as soon as they rearm with better rockets.

But this does not address why Netanyahu wants to purposefully achieve Hamas' purported objective of sacrificing massive civilians in order to advertise their dead bodies (and get funding etc).

 

[Hitokage]

Seriously, people, maybe someday realize that you're all buying into Hamas' plans... their goal is to have a lot of Palestinian civilians die, so that the international outcry finally forces Israel to give up on its blockade, so that they can get better weapons for their next attack. That is their goal, and it's stuff like this (stuff this thread is loaded with) that might help them achieve it someday.

Yes, of course Israel needs to do more direct moves towards peace. I've been critical of Netanyahu. But Israel has a right to defend itself from attack.

Like I said before, thought-stopping expression!

 

[A Black Falcon]

But this does not address why Netanyahu wants to purposefully achieve Hamas' purported objective of sacrificing massive civilians in order to advertise their dead bodies (and get funding etc).

He doesn't. He wants to accomplish his objective of destroying Hamas's rocket and tunnel capabilities so they can't attack Israel for a while.

The only side who commits wholesale slaughter of civilians is the IDF.

The IDF most definitely does not "commit wholesale slaughter of civilians". Israel-hating lies, that is. Yes, some civilians die, but again, some of that is because of Hamas, and some is just bad luck. What you're saying is that Israel intentionally murders civilians in large numbers, which is absolutely, totally false.

The threat you speak of is largely psychological. To what degree you may ask? 99.99% psychological. That's the ratio of rockets to civilian injuries. That's injuries not deaths.

Only because Israel has done an effective job of keeping Hamas from becoming strong enough to be more able to kill people easily. Those low casualty numbers would not continue to be so low without the blockade and these wars whenever Hamas attacks.

What needs to happen is an end to this horrible situation, so that Hamas doesn't keep doing this...

You keep on telling yourself that buddy.

What, you believe in the false-flag conspiracy theory? Anti-Israeli hate sure is strong here. And regardless, THIS war is happening because Hamas started attacking Israel with rockets. That is the cause, period.

This is factually incorrect in every possible way. Why bother respond if you're only going to do it with lies? I just don't understand how you can call the dilberate bombing of homes and hospitals as 'incidents.' Would you apply the same label to the London blitz in WW2? Aside from the fact that Israel actually started this, no matter where you want to pin the start point as, why does that even matter? Germany didn't start the first World War, but they sure as shit deserve blame for a lot of what happened during it. The fact they didn't cause the assassination that triggered those events doesn't absolve them of all wrongdoing.

You're totally off base here, nothing remotely accurate. If Israel was using WWII-level bombing technology, Palestinian civilian casualties would be in the four or five figures, and they'd destroy very few of their targets and almost exclusively kill civilians. WWII bombing was incredibly imprecise -- just getting within a mile of your target was a pretty accurate shot!

Obviously, modern weapons allow for dramatically more accurate attacks, and that's why Israel can be so precise, and why civilian casualties are only in the hundreds and not higher. Of course, the civilian deathtoll would be much lower without Hamas constantly hiding rockets in civilian homes and firing from their backyards while using pressure to force the people to stay put, but you people don't care about reality, only your obsession with hating Israel for everything.

Also, you talk about lies, and then lie about who started this war? That's not a good start to your argument, for sure!

Finally, Germany's "blank check" to Austria IS basically what made the First World War happen, so yes, I'd say that they really did start it. Without the blank check Austria probably wouldn't have invaded Serbia, and without that, no war. The assassination was the cause for Austria to want to invade Serbia, but without Germany's support they couldn't have done it -- and Germany has to have known the potential consequences.

Like I said before, thought-stopping expression!

Self-defense is the most fundamental of rights. Trying to say that Israel should be denied that right is beyond despicable.

 

[davepoobond]

But this does not address why Netanyahu wants to purposefully achieve Hamas' purported objective of sacrificing massive civilians in order to advertise their dead bodies (and get funding etc).

Hamas is a puppet of the Israeli government, obviously.

 

[SKINNER!]

Wasn't Hamas initially funded by the Israeli government as a way to oppose Arafat and the PLO back in the 80s?

 

[Hitokage]

Self-defense is the most fundamental of rights. Trying to say that Israel should be denied that right is beyond despicable.

I have the right to self defense, so I'm going to murder an entire house full of children on the off chance that one might cause me harm in the future.

The only reason you don't see the lunacy here is that your thought process stops at "right to self defense", without considering what Israel's actual threats are and the various options to handle them be they productive, counterproductive, or utterly inappropriate. Laying seige to Gaza and killing its people in perpetuity as a measure of defense is untenable.