HBO Original | The Last of Us | Part II OT | You Can't Stop This

There was a Reddit post today echoing what I said about Craig Mazin a few pages ago. He just doesn't understand the source material like he should.

What a shame. This show was so close to greatness. Bella and Mazin were unfortunately the wrong horses to bet on and the show kinda fell apart as soon as Neil took a step back.

I do agree that Craig doesn't understand the source material enough. I think maybe I give him too much credit for Chernobyl, but it was a very different show to showrun.

There are a lot of similarities, but they're not all flattering.

I'd say Maizin is actually at his best when he's creating expansion to the material rather than when he is adapting it.

I also wonder how much the strikes impacted the season. The scope of the second game is just so much larger when you take into consideration the time jumps during the first game in between seasons.

I also think they missed an opportunity with the show that the game didn't and wouldn't have, which was to explore some of that 5 years and let us breathe a little bit more in Jackson. Maybe showed Dina and Ellie forming their friendship more and how they found themselves getting so overconfident. This season probably should have been a full 10 episodes.
 
If nothing else, I appreciate the games even more now. Ashley Johnson is just so fucking electric as Ellie in Part II especially. It might be the best performance in the history of video games. It's that good. Nobody was ever gonna live up to that. Ashley Johnson simply IS Ellie.
 
Attached? Wasn't it only 8-9 episodes? We aren't talking about recasting Kelly Bundy here — no one was latching onto Bella for her character work with Ellie.

Could have recasted easily be done for overall betterment of the show but they decided to fall on the sword.
You are very wrong. Big part of the audience (maybe even most) haven't played the games. Bella is Ellie to them. It would be very odd to have the same actor for Joel but not for Ellie.
 
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* Hospital basement looked amazing and it was a great introduction to the spores (why just now? Dunno)
Virus evolving. I like that. Now I wonder if there would come a time when the virus evolved to a point Ellie is no longer inmune to a new strain. Could be a plot twist for Part 3, hmm...
 
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Video game Ellie: Great (the best?) video game character & facial animators in the industry have total control and can perfect every emotion a character conveys in a cutscene. Plus Ashley Johnson is one of the best in the biz.

TV show Ellie: Up to the actor to execute it all. The number of actors who could pull it off like video game Ellie are few. Mocapped and digitally-feminized Bryan Cranston, for example 😂
 
I do agree that Craig doesn't understand the source material enough.
I saw where they told certain (or all?) of the actors to not play the games. I think that was a mistake because they are following the source close enough. As far as Bella, she can do it. It's just the choices to be silly here and there that don't come across as being the right tone for certain scenes. It's weird. But the last scene in the basement showed she could have gone with the darker tone.
 
I saw where they told certain (or all?) of the actors to not play the games. I think that was a mistake because they are following the source close enough. As far as Bella, she can do it. It's just the choices to be silly here and there that don't come across as being the right tone for certain scenes. It's weird. But the last scene in the basement showed she could have gone with the darker tone.
I remember hearing Bella and Pedro saying that they didn't really follow the advice. They definitely watched some of the cutscenes on Youtube. She also said that she watched Part 2 gameplay when filming season 2.
 
I saw where they told certain (or all?) of the actors to not play the games. I think that was a mistake because they are following the source close enough. As far as Bella, she can do it. It's just the choices to be silly here and there that don't come across as being the right tone for certain scenes. It's weird. But the last scene in the basement showed she could have gone with the darker tone.

I mean at this point I think most of them have watched it or played it.

But the real problem I think is Craig.

There are scenes that are beat for beat line for line the same as the game, but they're absolutely rushed. Why that is? I don't know, but he's not only the writer, but the showrunner. He's responsible for all the directors they bring in. I'm sure he's watching dailies regardless of who is directing.

They've also made decisions to make the show more gory and grounded in some cases and less vicseral in others.

Manny doesn't spit on Joel. Ellie doesn't call Nora a cunt. But they go with the naked torture scene and a lot more disemboweling than I remember.

Craig makes changes and seemingly doesn't keep track of them. Ellie is in a school for FEDRA. The captain there says Ellie is really smart and will end up a leader if she does the right things. She tricks Joel into giving up the meaning of the 80s music. She picks up on how to stay on watch when Joel sleeps. She debates directly with Maria who is a prosecutor. She saves Joel's life with antibiotics (even if she applied them incorrectly). She outsmarts David by saying she was infected and so was he. But now we're meant to believe she's kind of a moron?

The only reason why Craig has done this is because he wants to give Dina more to work with. She's the smart one and Ellie is the more action oriented one.

Sure you can explain it away by saying the fedra school didn't focus on stuff like that but it's weak writing. We know they taught them geography at least.
 
Season 1
EP.1 -0.588
EP.2 -0.633
EP.3 -0.747
EP.4 -0.991
EP.5 -0.382
EP.6 -0.841
EP.7 -1.083
EP.8 -1.039
EP.9 -1.040

Season 2
EP.1 - 0.938
EP.2 - 0.643
EP.3 -0.768
EP.4 -0.774

The numbers don't include max.
People will say 643k is terrible, but that was the best-rated episode, and there was a huge sports weekend.

Numbers seem solid and not a huge drop off after Joel's death.
Glad to see the ratings being good. Wrestlemania was also during episode 2.
 
the script is different. it's not like actors get that much choice
She went silly vs something a bit more dry in tone. That's what I meant by choices. Still scripted but that can be an actors choice. She's on a revenge quest and some of it doesn't fit.
 
Loved the games, loved the Abby sections in-game, even think Bella is an OK fit for the role but the writing in the series is not doing it for me. It's definitely lacking the dread and adrenaline that I got playing the games and feels almost happy go lucky.
 
This reddit post does a good job at highlighting the different tone the show takes vs the game. Obviously they edit it to comedic effect, but I think you get the sense that real shit is about to go down in the game vs the show where they're just telling jokey jokes.

 
Audiences probably don't want 7 straight episodes of darkness and dread.
I do.
They could have offloaded some of the lines to Dina. They seem to have given her some of ellies skills and attitude in the TV version anyway. If you see the video above and the "joy" they talk about reinforces the feeling in that moment where she just as easily could have turned around and gone back home to be a "dad" vs continue on her revenge quest. That was her choice. Again, this is what I mean by her choices and information coming across that TikTok above that I'm just seeing so it's obvious that she is not understanding where she needs to be. She was more interested in delivering that line than being true to where the character needs to be in that moment.
 

Expensive show. Satisfying F FrankWza won't pay the bills. Even Game of Thrones had humor.

They could have offloaded some of the lines to Dina. They seem to have given her some of ellies skills and attitude in the TV version anyway.

They've wanted to balance things with Dina and give her more than what she had in the game. That's important for the tv show because in the game Dina stays behind because she is pregnant, but if you had Ellie by herself in the show, you'd have a boring show. It's a reason why I've told people that a greek saga God of War show probably doesn't work as well.

They've made Dina the planner and thinker and they've made Ellie the doer and decisive one.

If you see the video above and the "joy" they talk about reinforces the feeling in that moment where she just as easily could have turned around and gone back home to be a "dad" vs continue on her revenge quest. That was her choice. Again, this is what I mean by her choices and information coming across that TikTok above that I'm just seeing so it's obvious that she is not understanding where she needs to be. She was more interested in delivering that line than being true to where the character needs to be in that moment.

Adding a laugh track to a video to manipulate things isn't the most honest way of proving a point. There are light moments between Ellie and Dina in the game too, especially early on in Seattle, less so in the cutscenes and more so in the dialogue during gameplay. I think a lot of people have forgotten these elements altogether.





What's the Ellie laughing? Why isn't she thinking about Joel?

 
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what are you mad about? a harmless joke?

Even Chernobyl had humor... basically half the stuff with the miners is humorous... Or the guy in charge of the animal control. He's half humor....

It's like people tune this stuff out and only remember what they want to remember...

Kill Bill and John Wick are two of the most famous revenge films and they're both packed with humor... because revenge doesn't always play well non stop.
 
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This reddit post does a good job at highlighting the different tone the show takes vs the game. Obviously they edit it to comedic effect, but I think you get the sense that real shit is about to go down in the game vs the show where they're just telling jokey jokes.


Media literacy is truly dead. That and the fact that using a small video means nothing.

Ellie behaves differently in the show and in the game because lots of events shifted as well. She and Dina didn't have sex during the intro, so Ellie could never be the bitch she was that part in the game when they reach the theater the first time. Game Ellie was much more contained in that part in the game because she and Dina fought over the pregnancy. The first time we almost see her snap is when she's holding the guitar last episode...then she snaps at the end. Now that's when things start to shift.

Different types of media. No way gamers would be judging this tv show the way they are if the game didn't exist. It's an adaptation...not a 1/1 copy.

I mean...so when the original game debuted everyone hated almost everything about the story. How Joel would never walk into a garage like that, how Abby would never look like that in a post-apocalyptic world, how everything felt rushed in the beginning of the game, how Ellie behaved like a totally different person from the first game.

The TV show added much more story to the intro, Joel already doesn't look like an idiot walking into a garage full of strangers, Abby isn't all muscular, Ellie didn't have such a personality shift...and now everything is wrong as well because it doesn't look like the game?

Man just make up your minds already.

Thank god the show is a hit no matter how much gamers try to hate on it. (they aren't the target audience for this anyway)
 
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I mean...so when the original game debuted everyone hated almost everything about the story. How Joel would never walk into a garage like that, how Abby would never look like that in a post-apocalyptic world, how everything felt rushed in the beginning of the game, how Ellie behaved like a totally different person from the first game.

The TV show added much more story to the intro, Joel already doesn't look like an idiot walking into a garage full of strangers, Abby isn't all muscular, Ellie didn't have such a personality shift...and now everything is wrong as well because it doesn't look like the game?
Yes but these are also bad critiques. Joel didn't just walk into a garage for fun, and Ellie isn't a child like she was in the first game. There's also thematic reasons why Abby being muscular works.

I take your point that Ellie is acting different because of small changes made leading up to that point. But these small choices were not for the better. the sex scene, for example, didn't make sense in context of Ellie seeking revenge and grieving for Joel. and especially since it follows directly from Dina finding out that Ellie was bitten and is not affected by the fungus.
 
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Thank god the show is a hit no matter how much gamers try to hate on it. (they aren't the target audience for this anyway)

I'd say it goes further than that. You have a whole cottage industry setup to drive hate against it from a certain group. You can see hate videos pop up immediately after the episode airs "Worst episode of tv ever" or "More woke slop" and you see these videos get hundreds of thousands of views each episode.

If I didn't like a tv show, I wouldn't watch it week after week and in tune in to watch content about the series every week. It's honestly pathetic.

The thing that sucks about it is that I'm sure some people who don't know what these videos are just stumble on to them.

Another funny thing they do is they encourage people to review bomb and then they make content about how the user ratings are so low, just to drive clicks and hate.

I'm sure people have already made their videos in preparation for Intergalactic's release and it's guaranteed to be review bombed as well.
 
Even Chernobyl had humor... basically half the stuff with the miners is humorous... Or the guy in charge of the animal control. He's half humor....

It's like people tune this stuff out and only remember what they want to remember...

Kill Bill and John Wick are two of the most famous revenge films and they're both packed with humor... because revenge doesn't always play well non stop.
There are different types of humor. Dry sarcastic humor would work when you've traveled on horseback to another state to kill a bunch of people who killed your loved one.
Waltzing around and going "tadaa" for turning on the lights isn't the type of comedy that goes with that setting.
 
There are different types of humor. Dry sarcastic humor would work when you've traveled on horseback to another state to kill a bunch of people who killed your loved one.
Waltzing around and going "tadaa" for turning on the lights isn't the type of comedy that goes with that setting.

I'm glad you brought up that scene. I've seen a lot of people bring it up and there's got to be this disconnect.

I think some in the audience think, don't turn on the lights you'll give yourself away, but there's no point in time that we see that the lights being on is visible from the outside during the day.

It's similar to critiques I've seen about them talking "too loudly" on the street or talking to each other in front of the stalker.

People are taking genre tropes and applying it to this media in a way that doesn't apply.

They're talking loudly enough so that the audience can hear them. They're not going to whisper through the tv show. That's not good tv. The stalker has already seen them, it's not a clicker, talking in front of it changes nothing.

Back to the lights, in the game there is lighting in the theater that is pretty inexplicable. At no point do we discuss the nature of these lights. It's just there. In the show the theater is appropriately dark when they arrive and they don't want to film all the scenes in the theater in darkness. Hence the lights.

They've addressed this in previous scenes and maybe thought they had established this enough with audiences, but audiences have short memories.



I've also seen people continue to complain that they're not able to see scenes, cheap TVs and badly calibrated TVs. You want to film naturally dark scenes, but a lot of the audience responds poorly to it, so you kind of have to pick and choose.

Everything is a balance when you're making a show like this. Moments of levity are meant to ease from the violence and grotesque visuals on display for much of the show and it keeps some people from getting overwhelmed and checking out. For others, it might be off-putting. But where I find issue is that the criticism never seems consistent.

You have a 19 year old girl in love with her best friend making a joke and its the end of the world. I have my own criticisms of the show and the second season, but I just don't feel like this one lands true. I think they've done a good enough job balancing Ellie and Dina's relationship and which is more important to her that relationship, Dina's life, or Ellie's revenge. You also see Ellie's attitude towards her revenge ratcheting up as it becomes a reality.
 
Thank god the show is a hit no matter how much gamers try to hate on it. (they aren't the target audience for this anyway)

This show is no big hit - it was growing in viewership as the first season continued but it's lost a lot of its audience since then - as you'd expect from something that went from a father and daughter show in the apocalypse to a lesbian show in the apocalypse. Generally shows that turn into big hits continue to grow. I've seen tweets clowning on this show with literally hundreds of thousands of likes. It's getting virally dunked on.
 
This show is no big hit - it was growing in viewership as the first season continued but it's lost a lot of its audience since then - as you'd expect from something that went from a father and daughter show in the apocalypse to a lesbian show in the apocalypse. Generally shows that turn into big hits continue to grow. I've seen tweets clowning on this show with literally hundreds of thousands of likes. It's getting virally dunked on.

Most popular show on IMDB right now, and probably the #2 most popular show only because Andor had its finale.

Get out your bubble.
 
This show is no big hit - it was growing in viewership as the first season continued but it's lost a lot of its audience since then - as you'd expect from something that went from a father and daughter show in the apocalypse to a lesbian show in the apocalypse. Generally shows that turn into big hits continue to grow. I've seen tweets clowning on this show with literally hundreds of thousands of likes. It's getting virally dunked on.
Only official data we have after episode 1 of this season is the US TV viewership. It actually increased after episode 2. The drop from season 1 isn't huge:
Season 1
EP.1 -0.588
EP.2 -0.633
EP.3 -0.747
EP.4 -0.991
EP.5 -0.382
EP.6 -0.841
EP.7 -1.083
EP.8 -1.039
EP.9 -1.040

Season 2
EP.1 - 0.938
EP.2 - 0.643
EP.3 -0.768
EP.4 -0.774

The numbers don't include max.
People will say 643k is terrible, but that was the best-rated episode, and there was a huge sports weekend.

Numbers seem solid and not a huge drop off after Joel's death.
 
Only official data we have after episode 1 of this season is the US TV viewership. It actually increased after episode 2. The drop from season 1 isn't huge:

You can add episode 5. Not looking too flash.

Season 1
EP.1 -0.588
EP.2 -0.633
EP.3 -0.747
EP.4 -0.991
EP.5 -0.382
EP.6 -0.841
EP.7 -1.083
EP.8 -1.039
EP.9 -1.040

Season 2
EP.1 - 0.938
EP.2 - 0.643
EP.3 -0.768
EP.4 -0.774
Ep.5 -0.652
 
You can add episode 5. Not looking too flash.

Season 1
EP.1 -0.588
EP.2 -0.633
EP.3 -0.747
EP.4 -0.991
EP.5 -0.382
EP.6 -0.841
EP.7 -1.083
EP.8 -1.039
EP.9 -1.040

Season 2
EP.1 - 0.938
EP.2 - 0.643
EP.3 -0.768
EP.4 -0.774
Ep.5 -0.652

Why are you ignoring the ratings for Episode 5 in Season 1?

Context matters.

This show has run up against Easter, Mother's Day, Wrestlemania, and the NBA Playoffs.

These are really good ratings, and certainly not the down ratings that you're suggesting.
 
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