Doesn't hunter's hero power do the same? gets better as your opponents life gets lower.
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Hearthstone |OT3| Preparing for the Ball of Spiders Meta
- Thread starter ZealousD
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Doesn't hunter's hero power do the same? gets better as your opponents life gets lower.
MetroidPrimeRib
Banned
Yeah Lady Deathwhisper would be extremely frustrating and make Freeze Mage pretty much unbeatable, because I'm not actually sure how you would beat something that just steals your cards. Don't play them? You lose. Play them? You lose harder. Only option would be to kill as fast as possible...and that's hardly possible with Freeze Mage.
I like the design around the Deathrattle: End opponents turn card. Crazy, but not game breaking. Varian Wrynn and Headless Horseman are cool too.
Not exactly the same thing. What he means is that Life Tap improves as the average card in any Warlock deck improves. Conversely, when average Card Quality sucks (for example, in Webspinner Brawl), Life Tap is almost useless. Since every set introduces a few good cards for Warlock's various decks, Life Tap is getting stronger every set. Case in point: while Zoo and Hand have always been around, it's usually one or the other that dominates. Now Zoo, Hand (two variants) and Malylock are all top level competitive decks, owing to the strength of Lifetap.
Hunter's 2 damage will always be 2 damage, because there is a soft-cap on how fast games will go. Blizzard won't allow a metagame to exist where every game ends on 4-5 mana crystals. For every card that's made that helps Hunter (Mad Scientist, Quick Shot), they'll make another card that hurts them (Sludge Belcher, Antique Healbot). But as long as cards are getting better and decks are getting more consistent, Life Tap is benefiting the most of all the Hero Powers.
If it's *just* the Argent Tournament, I'd expect another Naxxramas/Blackrock type expansion.
If the ice on the Korean page is a hint, I could see Northrend being a more general card based expansion.
That said, the reason they announced the announcement earlier than normal and are showing it off a week or two before Gamescom is due to Magic The Hearthstonening releasing at the end of this month, so they'd rather have people talking about their game instead.
Good explanation.
I don't think there has been a time when Warlock wasn't a top meta pick. As in, at least one Warlock deck wasn't in the top 5 or so decks that high level players choose. Maybe it's happened during intensely hunter related metas, but those would be very fleeting.
And there's no sign of that waning any time soon; instead of Warlock retracting, it's expanding, with 2-3 Warlock decks all simultaneously near the top of the meta.
And there's no sign of that waning any time soon; instead of Warlock retracting, it's expanding, with 2-3 Warlock decks all simultaneously near the top of the meta.
I could see some of the new cards being introduced through brawl as part of the "Argent Tournament" with a fully fledged Icecrown/Northrend expansion coming later.
July 22nd being a Wednesday also fits with the Brawl schedule.
MetroidPrimeRib
Banned
Holy shit Shockadin is strong. Like wow.
Ahhhh okay, I misunderstood.
I love that they put in possible animations for the cards too.
Some of this stuff is top tier retarded
Summon two 3/3s for 3 mana? Shuffle all frozen minions, including your opponents, into your deck?
You can fuck right off
The Archemedes card is fine (it's basically giving you Dream cards for discarding your hand).
The other card on the other hand is bat shit insane. That thing in Freeze Mage would be hilarious!
MetroidPrimeRib
Banned
Archimonde is fine, they are similar to dream cards. As long as you cant get duplicates, then Finger of Death would be broken. Imagine that shit with Malygos. That's 30 dmg for 6 mana.
Of those, I think mega divine shield, ends enemies turn and Headless Horseman are the coolest. No one would play a 7 mana 4/4 though, it would also need taunt. Then it would be the ultimate huck funters card
Of those, I think mega divine shield, ends enemies turn and Headless Horseman are the coolest. No one would play a 7 mana 4/4 though, it would also need taunt. Then it would be the ultimate huck funters card
In light of the Warlock discussion, I'd be interested to see what people's feelings are about which classes have been the strongest on average over time. For instance, Warrior is strong right now, but was relatively weak for some time when there was only one Warrior archetype, and that archetype could at times be weak to other meta decks.
1) Warlock
2) Druid
3) Hunter
4) Mage
5) Warrior
6) Rogue
7) Paladin
8) Shaman
9) Priest
Druid is the weakest its ever been right now, however.
1) Warlock
2) Druid
3) Hunter
4) Mage
5) Warrior
6) Rogue
7) Paladin
8) Shaman
9) Priest
Druid is the weakest its ever been right now, however.
MetroidPrimeRib
Banned
Warlock
Mage
Hunter
Druid
Rogue
Warrior
Paladin
Shaman
Priest
From how long I've been playing, around a year
Mage
Hunter
Druid
Rogue
Warrior
Paladin
Shaman
Priest
From how long I've been playing, around a year
There are ways to balance the Warlock heropower though, e.g. by introducing new cards with card draw. If these are >= the heropower it would have a balancing effect on Warlock.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
People have been complaining about lifetap since closed beta. I still don't think it is a huge problem. Warlock strats that rely too heavily on lifetap spend a lot of tempo, in addition to hp.
Haunted
Member
There are so many garbage epic cards, you really feel it when there's an actual good one you want. They're so expensive to craft.
I've been playing since closed beta and haven't really been able to play a Rogue deck seriously, ever, because literally every single strong deck runs prep.
I've been playing since closed beta and haven't really been able to play a Rogue deck seriously, ever, because literally every single strong deck runs prep.
I think I need to go through and DE some shit legendaries and potentially epics.
Providing this is sensible...
I seriously don't get why Blizzard do this, how hard would it be to change things so you can no longer get two of the same common card in one pack?
Whenever it happens I'm reminded why I don't spend money on packs, surely that's not what they want?
Oh well at least all the dust from the constant stream of Puddlestompers and Annoy-o-trons is starting to build up.
HOOT HOOT
This would be my list too only I would swap Hunter and Mage. The only time Warlock was "weak" was when Pyroblast used to cost 8 mana and freeze spells were 1 mana cheaper making both Handlock and Zoolock weak against.
I don't remember a time where Hunter was unusable/bad/low tier. Even when it was considered bad it was actually good. Even after they nerfed UTH/Buzzard they were still strong. There were at least 3 phases where Hunter was broken. Maybe when UTH used to cost 4 mana they were weak but I forgot what Buzzard used to cost in that short period of time.
Mage has always been pretty good. There was the freeze/burn deck, then freeze giants, then freeze Mage, Mech Mage and Tempo Mage. Like Hunter they always manage to make themselves somewhat relevant. There was certainly a period where they were weak
Professor Lich
Member
Just curious, how would you guys rank Mind Spike and Mind Shatter? (Shadow Form rank 1 and 2, 2/3 damage respectively)I would guess that Mind Shatter would technically be the best hero power since it does 3 something for 2 mana where the rest are mainly 2 mana for 2. Of course, it's probably hard to rank them since they are cards you could never draw.
However, have to say, when pulled off, it can be stupidly strong. It just requires a deck with a lot of other healing sources.
However, have to say, when pulled off, it can be stupidly strong. It just requires a deck with a lot of other healing sources.
poppedcollar69
Member
So, I kinda feel like with the addition of cards like hemet and rend, blizzard is inching towards nuking bgh.
Buzzard was 2/1 for 2 mana. lol
Hunter is easily the most frustrating to play against for me. There's almost nothing you can do after a bad start because of the hero power combined with their ridiculous damage spells. Oh and I really hate secrets
Avinexus
Member
Until Chanman won a Team Liquid tournament with the old old combo Hunter deck it was considered the worst class in the game at the time.
Super Nothing
Member
You have to spend 2 cards and 6 mana just to get the 3 damage attack, then 2 mana per use. The damage per mana basically never gets close to the efficiency of Fireball unless you also play Prophet Velen (another card and 7 mana) and you can basically get the same effect for at least a turn with Auchenai Soul Priest and you get the bonus Circle of Healing board clear and Zombie Chow Mind Blasts. Shadowform is slow as hell, and you basically have to exhaust the other player's cards before you can actually win with it. That being said, the last time I played a Shadow Form Priest, he won. Granted I was dicking around trying some new decks I just made, but it kind of pissed me off.
IIRC it was rightfully the worst class because it didn't have the Buzzard + Unleash combo until then, so not only did it not have board control capabilities but also no good draw mechanics.
There was a rather long stretch between the nerf and resurrection of Freeze Mage where the class was considered worthless in constructed. Rogue had presence with tempo variants until Miracle dominated the scene for months and is probably the deck that generated the most forum salt ever. Oil was established rather quickly after the nerf and after another brief dominant phase settled down as a valid competitive archetype between high and top tier depending on the meta. The class should definitely be higher on that list.
It's close but I'd also say Priest > Shaman overall
It's close but I'd also say Priest > Shaman overall
Professor Lich
Member
Thanks for the input. It's interesting how you mentioned that since when Day9 played his Shadow Beast deck, that's how he mainly won on air.
In my lower ranked experience, it worked out better for me to get Shadow Form earlier against decks like Zoolock and Tempo Mage. (I would also against Hunter if I had enoguh healing to back myself up but it was always tenuous since Hunter is just full burn). I also ran Velen/Mind Blast which I think is better since it's a good finisher than just waiting for your opponent to die.
But yeah, going over the actual cost of Mind Spike / Mind Shatter, I feel like, at the moment anyway, there's only one type of deck that can support them.
I came in around the time where Warriors used to OTK with Warsong Commander and Molten Giant + Panda combo. There was also the other OTK option with Gorehowl set up into Alexstraza + Charge card.
Rogue was pretty weak between the time they nerfed Gadgetan/Leeroy and GvG was released (where they got Tinker's Sharp Oil). Rogue's weakest time was definitely during the Naxx era.
Warrior was pretty weak between the time they nerfed their charge cards (Warsong, Charge) and until Naxxramus was released (so they got Deaths' Bite).
Rogue was pretty weak between the time they nerfed Gadgetan/Leeroy and GvG was released (where they got Tinker's Sharp Oil). Rogue's weakest time was definitely during the Naxx era.
Warrior was pretty weak between the time they nerfed their charge cards (Warsong, Charge) and until Naxxramus was released (so they got Deaths' Bite).
Yeah, prior to GvG, mage was considered one of the weakest classes on ladder. Mech Mage was credited with making mage actually viable to play in constructed again.
Gadgetzan was nerfed at the same time GvG was released. Leeroy was nerfed before that but Miracle lived on for a time after, if I recall. It just didn't have quite as potent a finisher. The Gadgetzan nerf ultimately killed it dead.
The actual nature of the problem is not that balancing Life Tap will be impossible, but that Life Tap is singlehandedly deciding how power gets distributed among the classes with every set. For every card that's designed with Life Tap in mind, it gets that much harder if they ever want to touch Life Tap itself. The question comes down to: Do you think the game will be healthier with the bogeyman of Life Tap looming over the design of every set from here on in, or without it?
I would say without, in the same way I asserted that Flash would one day come to dominate the design of League of Legends champions (and it did). But that's not to say the game cannot survive, or flourish, just that things might be better if you nipped a potential problem in the bud then build your game around it to the point where it becomes the load bearing wall of the game itself.
This is from memory so it might be a bit shoddy. Also, I'm factoring both metagame shifts and the decks that existed at any given time. Thus, Miracle would dominate the Expert Set era even if it wasn't discovered until a year through, and Oil would dominate GvG in the same way. And this is only counting post-release and in no particular order.
Expert Winners: Rogue, Druid, Warlock, Warrior, Mage, Hunter (edit)
Expert Losers: Paladin, Shaman, Priest
Naxx Winners: Rogue, Druid, Hunter, Warlock, Warrior (edit)
Naxx Losers: Paladin, Shaman, Priest, Mage
GvG Winners: Rogue, Paladin, Mage, Hunter, Warlock
GvG Losers: Shaman, Priest, Druids, Warrior
BRM Winners: Rogue, Warrior, Warlock, Hunter, Mage
BRM Losers: Shaman, Priest, Paladin, Druid
Thus:
Warlock (4-0)
Rogue (4-0)
Hunter (4-0)
Warrior (3-1)
Mage (3-1)
Druid (2-2)
Paladin (1-3)
Shaman (0-4)
Priest (0-4)
There was only one point where Priest was ever one of the best and this was during the 8 mana Mind Control era back in Alpha/Closed Beta.
How was Warrior a GvG loser? They got Shield Maiden and Control Warrior was really strong in that phase.
And the Expert era for Hunter was too volatile to really say they were a loser. They had that god UTH/Buzzard combo in that era.
I feel that overall it's:
Top tier (across all eras):
Warlock
Rogue
Hunter
High to Mid tier
Mage
Warrior
Druid
Low tier
Paladin
Shaman
Priest
And the Expert era for Hunter was too volatile to really say they were a loser. They had that god UTH/Buzzard combo in that era.
I feel that overall it's:
Top tier (across all eras):
Warlock
Rogue
Hunter
High to Mid tier
Mage
Warrior
Druid
Low tier
Paladin
Shaman
Priest
Gadget was nerfed at GvG release precisely because of spare parts. It was absolutely not intended as a nerf to miracle rogue directly, but is the best example of a card Blizzard considered fine becoming not fine with the introduction of new mechanics.
I agree with everything, except I think priests got a win during Naxx.
Zombie Chow, Dark Cultist, Sludge Belcher & the broken Undertaker allowed for a great mid-range deck. Most importantly, it was a mid-range deck that absolutely smashed the Undertaker Hunter decks. It has the same broken Undertaker opener, 2 for 1 removal that stole all the death rattles in Shadow Madness, good healing for the time. I earned over 200+ priest wins during that time, it was awesome.
I wish Liquidpedia actually included the deck information. I don't give a shit who won what tourney but I can't dig through the past decklists at all.
I agree that Priests benefited hugely from Naxx, but that's not what I meant by "winners" and "losers". "Winners" are those who had competitive results during that timeframe. All the juicy deathrattles merely made Priest a real class like most others already were pre-Naxx. It didn't give results. But then again, I may be misremembering my tournaments it has been a while.
I agree that Priests benefited hugely from Naxx, but that's not what I meant by "winners" and "losers". "Winners" are those who had competitive results during that timeframe. All the juicy deathrattles merely made Priest a real class like most others already were pre-Naxx. It didn't give results. But then again, I may be misremembering my tournaments it has been a while.
That makes me wonder. Has anyone ever drafted 3 in arena? Does it go up to 4 damage if you play 3?
It stays at 3.
Priest only had a somewhat significant splash in the competitive scene when Amaz introduced the super combo playstyle with Pyro, Auchenai, Circle etc. - it wasn't even mid tier then but a number of other players brought it as well around that time. By the time Cultist came out it was already dead again, and I haven't seen a single Deathrattle Priest in tournaments ever. Actually maybe it is even worse than Shaman overall.
Haly and you are right. Deathrattle Priest wasn't a tourny deck. I played it a lot on ladder for crushing undertaker-hunter, but in the time of Miracle Rogue any priest deck in a tournament was bad advice.
I don't think so. Control Warrior has always stuck around but it was definitely not top tier in GvG simply because the deck crumples to Mech Mage. Sure, it used Shield Maiden, but that's almost all it got out of GvG. It was nothing like Control Warrior post-Naxx which got Loatheb, Belcher, Unstable and Deathbite. Take a look at the Liquidhearth rankings. They are by no means the be-all and end-all of metagame summaries but it was the darkest time for Warrior since pre-Control Warrior.
The funny thing is, what brought Control Warrior back in BRM wasn't any of the BRM cards, but the domination of Patron Warrior and Oil Rogue, both decks it's built to counter.
I'll revise Hunter though, I forgot about Midrange's continued dominance into Naxx. I only remembered Aggro. I've also revised Naxx Warrior, owing to what I wrote above.
MetroidPrimeRib
Banned
What do you guys think of Sea Giant in Zoo? I've run 1 for a while and he has won me a lot of games, but a lot of decks seem to not run him and run Loatheb instead. I think Sea Giant is super strong with Imp-plosion, Gang Boss and Dr. Boom.
Sea Giant in Zoo is great but Loatheb is a bit better because it can protect your board for clears.
The other 3 cards you mentioned are staple in the deck now.
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