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Hearthstone |OT3| Preparing for the Ball of Spiders Meta
- Thread starter ZealousD
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EnVy_CaLiBeR
Member
Yeah I don't see them not making an adjustment to a deck with that kind of burst and draw engine. It's similar to Miracle Rogue in that manner, except the damage here is far greater.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
We already have a ruler, a measurement, by which to say that is still ridiculous. Miracle rogue. Handlock. Pre-leeroy nerf. And now you can reach higher amounts of damage with less cards in patron warrior, which means more ability to deal with taunts and deal face damage at the same time.
So on the one hand, you have miracle rogue getting nerfed, for far less damage output. But you say patron warrior is okay despite having far greater damage output. Really makes no sense. I am aware it takes a lot of cards to pull off, that doesn't mean everything that takes a lot of cards to pull off is okay.
Also, just to note, I think I counted almost 40 damage even before the whirlwind. Easily, by far more than enough to take out a 30hp hero even with taunts set up.
There are already combinations in the game that you can pull off for lethal damage if Emperor Thaurissan is in play.
Combolock is still a thing thanks to Emperor Thaurissan. You can get like 30+ damage with no board because you can get reduced cost on Abusive Sergeants + Power Overwhelming and Leeroy into Faceless. That's about as many cards and mana as that Grim Patron combo.
In the case of Grim Patron deck, they usually need some board from the enemy to boost up the damage of the Frothing that high.
I am not denying that there isn't precedence for a nerf here. I am just saying that if we are looking at reduced cost cards plus god hands plus full 10 mana + weapon already prepped up utilization... that doesn't really phase me all that much to be honest. When I look at something like that I think to myself "would that be possible without Emperor Thaurissan reducing the cost of all those cards?" The answer is no obviously, he wouldn't have mana to play more than Patron + Emperor and a couple of Whirlwinds. Emperor enables a lot of bull shit in the game, stuff like double Savage Roar Force of Nature combos, Freeze Mage shenanigans, Malygos nukes and Combolock.
Combolock is still a thing thanks to Emperor Thaurissan. You can get like 30+ damage with no board because you can get reduced cost on Abusive Sergeants + Power Overwhelming and Leeroy into Faceless. That's about as many cards and mana as that Grim Patron combo.
In the case of Grim Patron deck, they usually need some board from the enemy to boost up the damage of the Frothing that high.
I am not denying that there isn't precedence for a nerf here. I am just saying that if we are looking at reduced cost cards plus god hands plus full 10 mana + weapon already prepped up utilization... that doesn't really phase me all that much to be honest. When I look at something like that I think to myself "would that be possible without Emperor Thaurissan reducing the cost of all those cards?" The answer is no obviously, he wouldn't have mana to play more than Patron + Emperor and a couple of Whirlwinds. Emperor enables a lot of bull shit in the game, stuff like double Savage Roar Force of Nature combos, Freeze Mage shenanigans, Malygos nukes and Combolock.
BananasWithGuns
Member
There's no doubt in my mind that Patron Warrior will get touched, probably with the release of the new expansion.
It'll either be the Frothing Berserker or the Warsong Commander that gets hit I think. 15-20+ damage minions with charge just can't be a regular occurrence.
It'll either be the Frothing Berserker or the Warsong Commander that gets hit I think. 15-20+ damage minions with charge just can't be a regular occurrence.
Generally I would say that Blizzard tends to take two steps before doing a nerf.
1.) They see the entire meta shift to countering a strategy, yet the strategy still dominates.
2.) They add new cards into the game to counter the strategy, yet the strategy still dominates.
We've clearly passed step 1, so if the cards from Argent Tournament don't do anything, they will assuredly nerf something.
They could feasibly nerf it in tandem with the next expansion if they feel it's bad enough as it is.
By comparison, Dr. Boom is basically about making Turn 7 difficult to deal with instead of instantly winning the game, and with the amount of BGHs we saw, Dr. Boom's inclusion in decks actually took a downturn or were relatively easily dealt with.
1.) They see the entire meta shift to countering a strategy, yet the strategy still dominates.
2.) They add new cards into the game to counter the strategy, yet the strategy still dominates.
We've clearly passed step 1, so if the cards from Argent Tournament don't do anything, they will assuredly nerf something.
They could feasibly nerf it in tandem with the next expansion if they feel it's bad enough as it is.
By comparison, Dr. Boom is basically about making Turn 7 difficult to deal with instead of instantly winning the game, and with the amount of BGHs we saw, Dr. Boom's inclusion in decks actually took a downturn or were relatively easily dealt with.
I didn't see any down turn in Dr Balanced usage even with people using stuff like BGH and MCT to try to counter it. The only down turn that happened with Dr Balanced usage was because it was not necessary to use it in Grim Patron decks or Freeze Mage. But it's present in every other deck anyway. Even Hunters and Zoolocks are using Dr Balanced now when before they were happy running stuff like Face Hunter (Hybrid/Midrange use Dr Balanced now because Face Hunter isn't consistent enough for tournament play).
So instead of being in 100% decks, it's now in like 90% decks. Sure it's not an instant win like Undertaker but then again neither are Emperor, Grim Patron or Mad Scientist most of the time. They are just really strong cards and Dr Balanced is clearly near the top of the food chain.
The more important thing to note is that Blizzard has changed their statements regarding the card numerous times and they now fully consider the card to be "strong" and a card that they are keeping their eye on. Granted they have also said the same for the Grim Patron deck (it's strong and they are keeping an eye on it) so who knows... maybe they both get nerfed.
So instead of being in 100% decks, it's now in like 90% decks. Sure it's not an instant win like Undertaker but then again neither are Emperor, Grim Patron or Mad Scientist most of the time. They are just really strong cards and Dr Balanced is clearly near the top of the food chain.
The more important thing to note is that Blizzard has changed their statements regarding the card numerous times and they now fully consider the card to be "strong" and a card that they are keeping their eye on. Granted they have also said the same for the Grim Patron deck (it's strong and they are keeping an eye on it) so who knows... maybe they both get nerfed.
I wouldn't be surprised if they nerfed him, but the reasons I outlined are why I feel he was seen as way less of an urgent issue than Patron Warrior.
Patron Warrior has straight up made several classes basically nonviable even when they try to tune against it. By comparison, Dr. Boom got BGHs (and himself) included in decks.
What's odd is number 2 seemed like what they tried with Miracle, but they also nerfed it at the same time to never see the shakedown. Stuff like Bomb Lobber and Flamecannon seemed like more direct answers to a stealthed gadgetzan, but he was nerfed before we got to see it(due to the spare parts, I guess).
One of the things that Kripp said was that the reason why he feels that Grim Patron won't get nerfed is that it's something that is Warrior only. The Miracle Rogue related nerfs were targeted towards the neutral creatures like Gadgetan and Leeroy which were creatures that more than just Rogue could abuse (and even far back as Sylvanas which was nerfed for the exact same reason as Dr Balanced should be nerfed which was that she was used in almost every deck).
Grim Patron while a neutral card is basically only usable in Warrior decks. Dr Balanced is a card that gets used in way more decks. I would honestly argue the same for Mad Scientist, it gets used 100% in the two classes with decent Secrets.
In any case, I see both sides of the arguments. I just feel that if Grim Patron is going to get the stick then they gotta bring down Dr Balanced and Mad Scientist too. Either go in on the nerfs or let that shit rock. It's also a bit early for Grim Patron nerfs where as those two cards have been around longer.
Grim Patron while a neutral card is basically only usable in Warrior decks. Dr Balanced is a card that gets used in way more decks. I would honestly argue the same for Mad Scientist, it gets used 100% in the two classes with decent Secrets.
In any case, I see both sides of the arguments. I just feel that if Grim Patron is going to get the stick then they gotta bring down Dr Balanced and Mad Scientist too. Either go in on the nerfs or let that shit rock. It's also a bit early for Grim Patron nerfs where as those two cards have been around longer.
FieryBalrog
Member
Patron has not been doing well in Archon Team League.
So I think the meta can adjust...
So I think the meta can adjust...
FieryBalrog
Member
Patron Warrior is not the problem actually. The real problem is "combo deck that uses Thaurissian with a bunch of cards in hand to create a huge burst turn." Patron is not the only deck that does this. Maylock is based on this, and some Mage decks are based on this too now. Druid combo decks weave in this strategy as well. Sooner or later this will be a problem with another deck; Patron just happens to be the most visible symptom.
The real solution is to add cards that create counterplay to "large burst turns".
Cards that are similar to this card from MTG. Or this card.
The real solution is to add cards that create counterplay to "large burst turns".
Cards that are similar to this card from MTG. Or this card.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
I think it needs to be pointed out that kripp is just making assumptions about why cards were nerfed and is not even going by the official statements as to why those nerfs happened. IIRC he went on to try and dismiss the reason why leeroy nerfed happened by claiming it happened because it affected more than just 1 class. That isn't the reason why or why not the nerf happened, that is the reason he gave to try and distinguish, but there is no real basis to say that is why the nerfs happened - it is all speculation.
What we have is the official statement made:
Now we're talking about a deck that can push out far more damage, but it is okay because only 1 class can do it in that particular way? That is just something kripp concocted to support his position.
Go back further and you'll see a number of warrior only nerfs relating to OTK. And then you'll see that the reasoning kripp made is just a bunch of selective memory bs. I'm talking warsong commander prenerf, charge pre-nerf. Those 2 class cards were nerfed because they enabled OTKs that existed at that time. So the whole "it only affects warrior" thing is just nonsense imho.
Edit:
I also forgot even UTH at one point was nerfed due to being a OTK enabler card. Originally UTH gave all beasts charge and +1 attack. These cards were all nerfed regardless of being available to only 1 class. And beast hunter wasn't even a top deck in competitive play at the time. It was actually not even that great.
"Hello I am a bad card because this is a game where every creature is also removal."
"This is my best friend, who is just as bad as I am.".png/184px-Mana_Wraith(197).png?version=d1102f96f83586ab0e5b001c6ced6ce5)
For a while now, I've been thinking about how easily they could implement spells that target or occupy spaces on the board(think a fire spell that leaves spreading fire & smoke, etc.).
If they were theoretically looking to use a mechanic like this to basically make enchantments(ala MtG) within the game as well, banners would be a flavorful implementation of that and would fit perfectly within an Argent Tournament theme.
It would be a huge stretch to say that Blizzard has something like that planned, but I would really love to see static/activated effects that don't have to be attached to a minion.
If they were theoretically looking to use a mechanic like this to basically make enchantments(ala MtG) within the game as well, banners would be a flavorful implementation of that and would fit perfectly within an Argent Tournament theme.
It would be a huge stretch to say that Blizzard has something like that planned, but I would really love to see static/activated effects that don't have to be attached to a minion.
Lmao this Brawl. I couldn't play a minion until turn 4 against a Warrior who played Fiery War Axe, Death's Bite and Arcanite Reaper in a perfect curve. I had 6 HP left vs his 24 HP on turn 8 and came back with an Foe Reaper 4000, cleared his board next turn and played Kel'Thuzad and finally drew Ysera, got the +5/+5 dream card and did 31 damage the next turn with all my minions, the dream card and Pyroblast. 
FieryBalrog
Member
Well yeah- you don't have to design it exactly the same way, for precisely that reason. Even in MTG these cards have problems because combo decks in that game are ridiculous (in Legacy). But take Loatheb, he was a good card for this game. By himself, he will not cause enough disruption vs. one of these combo decks. But if he has friends, you now have new avenues of play vs. these decks. His Battlecry goes off no matter if you remove his fat body next turn.
Also Mana Wraith is a bad card because it has bad stats. Nerubar Weblord also has terrible stats. Loatheb has good stats. Glowrider existed for many years before Thalia, and is a hugely weaker card because the stats suck for the cost (and also because combo decks in MTG are, well, super fast). You weaken your clock so much that you end up undoing the disruption you're applying.
Also the most obnoxious combos in Hearthstone are based around spells, not minions. (just like Magic.) Even Patron is much more disrupted by shutting down enablers - Whirlwind, Battle Rage, Inner Rage, etc.
Sorry that wasn't a knock against your post. Just that Blizzard's attempt to print hosers has so far been laughably naive.
Yes, they cited spare parts as the reason they weren't comfortable leaving the card as is.
Sometimes there's something in the new set they want in that just breaks an old card, so they address it up front.
I believe in that video Kripp was focusing on recent Blizzard nerf patterns and the changes that were made to the game in a year. He states that Blizzard has sort of shifted their balance change philosophies and have done less and less balance changes over time. The reason why he was talking about Leeroy and not Warsong is because that happened within a year where as the Warsong/Charge nerfs were before that time (a few months before the 1 year mark since he made that video). Same thing for the UTH change.
So it wasn't selective memory, he knows the cards that were nerfed but he was clearly focusing on changes made within the past year. Of course it was all his own opinions and assumptions as to why he doesn't think Grim Patron would get nerfed just like we are making assumptions here.
FormallyFamicom
Member
They could always give Thaurissan the Pagle nerf and change it's ability from the end of your turn to the start of it. Give opponents a chance to stop super combos from happening.
Speaking of Grim Patron in other classes, this has surfaced
http://www.hearthpwn.com/decks/274270-fire-water-s16-legend
Looks inconsistent at best to me but supposedly it works. Too bad dusted my Flame Leviathan a while back lol I have Geddon though so might as well try with that instead...
http://www.hearthpwn.com/decks/274270-fire-water-s16-legend
Looks inconsistent at best to me but supposedly it works. Too bad dusted my Flame Leviathan a while back lol I have Geddon though so might as well try with that instead...
I don't understand what's good about this deck. Seems like you would be MUCH better off playing Tempo Mage or Freeze Mage.
You pretty much do not have a win condition outside of the Patrons. So if your two get wiped out you are done for. Plus the board control is weak in this deck and the burst is low (no Fireballs).
And your Leviathan/Ragnaros are easy BGH targets.
MAYBE you can get something going if you manage to Duplicate a Patron or Echo a board of Patrons. But it feels like it's trying to be too all in on the Patron win conditoin.
The Grim Patron Warrior deck works because it's not just Patron that does damage for a win condition, it also has the Frothing Berserkers. And they also have a Grommash for a surprise win condition.
The Grim Patron Warrior deck works because it's not just Patron that does damage for a win condition, it also has the Frothing Berserkers. And they also have a Grommash for a surprise win condition.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
Seems like a good way to remove it from being played in constructed decks.
People were expecting that it would be a counter to Zoo at the time, because half the cards in zoo had battlecries.
I think its problem more than anything is its stat lineup. You can't trade for diddly with a 1/4 card.
They introduced Weblord at the same time as a shitload of amazing, aggro-oriented Deathrattles.
Nice testing blizzard!!!!!
Oh and then they introduced a deathrattle "counter" in a set with aggro mechs.
It's kind of running joke at this point. In the next set, they're probably going to introduce a Patron counter while giving Warrior a new archetype to play instead.
EDIT: I'll give them credit for Kezan Mystic even if it took the rise of 4 secret playing archetypes to make ti viable.
Nice testing blizzard!!!!!
Oh and then they introduced a deathrattle "counter" in a set with aggro mechs.
It's kind of running joke at this point. In the next set, they're probably going to introduce a Patron counter while giving Warrior a new archetype to play instead.
EDIT: I'll give them credit for Kezan Mystic even if it took the rise of 4 secret playing archetypes to make ti viable.
They are probably going to add in a Patron counter and add in something that makes Control Warrior insane. Maybe a reliable AOE clear or some bull shit condition using armor up like old school Shield Slam.
What's actually going to happen is that they are going to add in some cards that will make Hunter or Warlock the best.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
Has anyone tried using weblord to counter zoo? It happens to work really well at slowing them down. I mean, they still use several battlecries. I think that card is fine. It just might not be good enough in other match ups to justify including it. Plus it works against your own battlecries, so you'd have to give up including several strong cards just to make it work.
If it worked against only your opponent, it could be a broken very unfun card to play against though.
If it worked against only your opponent, it could be a broken very unfun card to play against though.
TetraxShards
Member
Hunter will get a bunch of crap, but there will be a couple of neutrals that helps them hugely. Other than Quick Shot, what was the last good Hunter class card? I guess Glaivezooka, but nobody played it until Hunters started going full face.
With Warlock, they'll introduce more crap demons, but there will be one or two that get added to the usual archetypes. I can't even think of what they could get. They finally got a decent 3-drop in BRM with Imp Gang Boss (well, more than decent). What are they missing now?
As regards Grim Patron, I'm not in favour of an Emperor Balance nerf. He single-handledly enables combo decks to be a thing in Hearthstone, and I want that to continue. Also, it's the first Warrior archetype in ages that isn't Control Warrior, and it's good to have another class that isn't completely locked out to players who don't have All Hope Lies in Boom and such.
Hunter got Quickshot, before that they got Glaivezooka and then before that they got Mad Scientist/Haunted Creeper/Web Spinners.
It's not just about giving Warlocks better demons. Healbot was great in buffing up Handlock for example. If they introduce more cards that get insane if you have a hand full of cards then that would be a buff to Warlock.
Like for example they add in a Warlock spell:
Deal 1 damage for each card you have in your hand.
This would be a pretty solid buff to Malygos Warlock deck for example.
Or they add in a card that gets better/easier to play with lower life like Molten Giant.
Because Warlock has many different archetypes, they can add many different cards and it's bound to buff Warlock in some way. Add in stickier, efficient cheap minions? Zoolock gets better. Add in mechanics that get strong with more cards in hand? Handlock gets better. Add in more ways to do burst damage? Combolock gets better or Malylock gets better. Add in ways to reduce cost of hand like Emperor? Combolock/Malylock get better.
It's basically a result of their hero power... it just gets stronger and stronger the more cards you introduce to the pool.
It's not just about giving Warlocks better demons. Healbot was great in buffing up Handlock for example. If they introduce more cards that get insane if you have a hand full of cards then that would be a buff to Warlock.
Like for example they add in a Warlock spell:
Deal 1 damage for each card you have in your hand.
This would be a pretty solid buff to Malygos Warlock deck for example.
Or they add in a card that gets better/easier to play with lower life like Molten Giant.
Because Warlock has many different archetypes, they can add many different cards and it's bound to buff Warlock in some way. Add in stickier, efficient cheap minions? Zoolock gets better. Add in mechanics that get strong with more cards in hand? Handlock gets better. Add in more ways to do burst damage? Combolock gets better or Malylock gets better. Add in ways to reduce cost of hand like Emperor? Combolock/Malylock get better.
It's basically a result of their hero power... it just gets stronger and stronger the more cards you introduce to the pool.
BananasWithGuns
Member
Wish I knew what possessed people to take their net decked Hunter decks into casual and then BM the entire time.
If there's one thing this game needs it's a better way to experiment with new decks without going up against the same meta decks over and over.
If there's one thing this game needs it's a better way to experiment with new decks without going up against the same meta decks over and over.
People just want to get their quick dailies.
Nothing gets me hyped than getting a 60 gold Hunter quest. Easy money, easy games... easy life.
So much of progression in this game(ie earning gold for cards) is win-based. If you're not winning, you might as well not be playing. So always play to win, even in casual I guess. I don't see casual changing as long as this is true.
Just found a new? bug. In arena I had a Ravenholdt Assassin stealthed and undamaged in play. The warrior plays a Frothing Berserker and then plays a Bouncing Blade. The BB hits the Frothing once and then my stealthed 7/5 once. Then there is a pause and my unit just gets destroyed. The history only shows -1 hit on each. ........UGH. I still ended up winning, but it almost ruined my arena run.
Edit: (Really though, it was a misplay by him. If he just played the BB first it would killed the one unit on board)
Edit: (Really though, it was a misplay by him. If he just played the BB first it would killed the one unit on board)
Brawndo Addict
Banned
Ha ha, I got 6 Gorehowls in this brawl. It might be lazy but it can be hilarious.
Seems like you had server issues, not a bug.
TetraxShards
Member
I could totally see Blizzard changing Mad Scientist to "Put a random secret into play." and suddenly every class has secrets.
I'll see if I can reproduce it.
I reproduced it. This time the Frothing died. Both units only took one hit again.
BananasWithGuns
Member
Between Cenarius, Toshley and Troggzor, which one would be the best use of 1600 dust?
Cenarius I'm guessing?
Cenarius I'm guessing?
FieryBalrog
Member
One easy thing to check: the first time, when the Ravenholdt Assassin died, how much buff did the Berserker gain?
Just two.
I'll do it again and try to get that outcome.
Edit: Now it seems to be playing the entire animation and buffing properly, but it's playing at 3x-4x speed. Probably due to netcode, but still funny to see.
The histroy bar should show total hits to each minion regardless, so that's a bug at the very least. Each hit may be 1 dmg, but other spells like Avenging Wrath will show the final sum and also show a skull if if killed the unit.
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