Yeah I wish I was seeing as many Face Hunters as you guys are cause then I'd be doing exactly this
Way too many Druid and Paladin assholes around though
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Hearthstone |OT3| Preparing for the Ball of Spiders Meta
- Thread starter ZealousD
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Way too many Druid and Paladin assholes around though
how's Ysera??
Good Legendary just a bit slow. Very strong in a slow control meta. The main thing holding it back right now is the Shrinkmeister Cabal combo from Priest which is absolutely devastating (well that and the aggressive meta, 9 mana makes this card worthless against aggro).
TetraxShards
Member
Alex is only good if you have all the other parts for Freeze Mage, Handlock or CW. Rag is good but not as good as he was. Black Knight or Harrison are good as tech options. Thalnos for many Rogue decks but not essential IMO. Sneed's is really fun to use.
I'd definitely craft Tirion if you want to play Paladin, he's almost in all Pally decks apart from some of the ones that use Divine Favor.
As far as epics, at least one BGH if you don't have any. Ancient of Lore is essential in Druid. Preparation for Rogue decks. Shield Slam and Brawl for Warrior. Cabal Shadow Priest in, well, Priest. The Giants for Handlock.
Agree 100%.
ok thx for the info
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
Totally depends on what you want to play.
toddhunter
Member
I'd wait a week or two to craft anything. Things might shift a bit in that time, but Rag is a solid choice.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
I don't think shrinkmeister+cabal is holding back ysera. That was not my problem with ysera in paladin at least. You barely even play priests, even still. And then not all of them run that kind of deck and they use it often before turn 9 anyway. Mind control is more of a threat to ysera. If ysera was common, yes then shrinkmeister would be more of a threat.
so the two threats to Ysera are both Priest-only? how is Ysera against all the other classes??
Better, but still too slow currently. Ysera excels at control vs control, which isn't that prevalent outside of pro level tourneys.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
I just had a gratifying win with my midrange hunter vs mill rogue. Half way through the match I just kinda realized that every turn I don't hero power I am missing out on damage and that playing cards is less important... potentially. edit: Although in retrospect, they do run healbot so I probably did play it mostly right.
Very damn good. Except hunter of course, unless its midrange. But Ysera is a good finisher if you can survive face hunter's early turns and stabilize.
The main thing you have to worry about with ysera is just hard removal. Thankfully, not every class that has hard removal even bothers to run it.
Hex, polymorph (control mage is not very popular, nor is fatigue mage but you do come across these decks sometimes) are the two strongest hard removals vs it.
Next is siphon soul in warlock and they often don't even run two anymore.
Warrior of course has executes and shield slam but you can play around them. Also depends on your class of course. Warrior might be forced to exhaust executes and shield slams early leaving them very vulnerable to late game.
Rogue has sap, so yeah that usually is pretty bad to have to replay a 9 drop.
I mean, every card has its weakness right? If you build your deck right though you can take advantage of ysera very well. I haven't gotten quite there yet with paladin and am waiting for the new dragon cards to experiment more.
Very damn good. Except hunter of course, unless its midrange. But Ysera is a good finisher if you can survive face hunter's early turns and stabilize.
The main thing you have to worry about with ysera is just hard removal. Thankfully, not every class that has hard removal even bothers to run it.
Hex, polymorph (control mage is not very popular, nor is fatigue mage but you do come across these decks sometimes) are the two strongest hard removals vs it.
Next is siphon soul in warlock and they often don't even run two anymore.
Warrior of course has executes and shield slam but you can play around them. Also depends on your class of course. Warrior might be forced to exhaust executes and shield slams early leaving them very vulnerable to late game.
Rogue has sap, so yeah that usually is pretty bad to have to replay a 9 drop.
I mean, every card has its weakness right? If you build your deck right though you can take advantage of ysera very well. I haven't gotten quite there yet with paladin and am waiting for the new dragon cards to experiment more.
She's pretty weak to pretty much every standard hard removal except BGH. Generally you need your opponent to have used their polymorphs/hexes/equalities/executes/sap before you drop her. She's kind of like Tirion that way. Once your opponent has used all their tools you drop her and say "I win, I know you can't deal with this". So she's a very strong late game play, just before two control decks dip into fatigue.
She's slow and late so aggro decks couldn't give a rat's ass about her.
I think Nefarian will be better in a faster meta. Getting two cards is better than a single OP card, imo.
TetraxShards
Member
Those are just the worst-case scenario. Most classes have some form of direct removal to deal with it (Hex, Poly, Siphon, there's loads). Plus, she costs 9, doesn't do anything when she comes into play, and she needs to be kept alive to get value. And you have to hope you don't just get Laughing Sisters (they're not terrible, it's just the other Dream cards are all better).
Plus, it's not just that she's bad. What do you cut from an optimal list for her? There's only 30 slots in a deck after all. The most success I had with her was actually in a fairly basic Priest deck a month or so before GVG. This was the list I ran, it was good and extremely fun to play but I couldn't get past Rank 5 with it:
Ysera was mostly there for shock value, and it worked. The only other deck I used her regularly in was CW and I cut her after GVG for a Shieldmaiden. Now the only deck she's in is my attempt at the Deck of Legends (mine is even more top heavy since I don't have Cho, Pagle, Tink or Mukla).
call_kotaku
Member
innervate emperor on turn 4, win with combo on turn 7
emperor making ramp druid faster than face hunter
emperor making ramp druid faster than face hunter
haha sweet, how is this deck??
How? What could the others have been, Cho and what?
Cho and Rivendare
AstroZombie
Banned
AUTSM BOYS, TUCK FRUMPGo Trump
TetraxShards
Member
It's strictly casual mode only, but it is so fun because nobody expects it:
If I can survive the first few rounds (the Muster and Truesilver are there so can I clear early minions), things can get crazy fast.
I'll probably cut Lay on Hands for Emperor Balance. Probably won't add Chromaggus as it's too likely I'll mill myself. Nefarian is a must for both this deck and Randuin Wrynn. Ideally I'd add Cho and Mukla, maybe Pagle as well. Seeing the Dark Iron Arena using the Pagle/Cho Wombo Combo kind of inspired me. Would also like to cut Malygos for an Onyxia.
hahahha this is krazy broski! looks fun
TheChewyWaffles
Member
You still have to draw the right cards for that to work.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
Lol wow, 9-1 with my midrange hunter deck. Granted, 2 wins were from a rogue who just assumed I was a face hunter and quit at the sight of me (or so I presume).
I've only actually gotten to play thaurissan once in the 10 games and it totally didn't help nor was it better than playing highmane. So probably better to put loatheb in his place.
Snipe + freezing trap make it very difficult for people to establish a board. When they succeed, explosive shot is actually quite good at board clearing. This leaves your minions and hero power to hit face.
This is intended to be a tempo hunter deck btw. And before someone says it, sure dr. boom probably does belong in this deck.
I've only actually gotten to play thaurissan once in the 10 games and it totally didn't help nor was it better than playing highmane. So probably better to put loatheb in his place.
Snipe + freezing trap make it very difficult for people to establish a board. When they succeed, explosive shot is actually quite good at board clearing. This leaves your minions and hero power to hit face.
This is intended to be a tempo hunter deck btw. And before someone says it, sure dr. boom probably does belong in this deck.
toddhunter
Member
Rivendare is the easy pick there. It survives flamestrike (your #1 consideration) and can pick off paladin dudes. Then if you draft a shredder or sky golem or even better option you can get a lot of value.
T
thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
Probably. I haven't seen a Mill Rogue vs Face Hunter before, but it's probably the worst match I could ever imagine. I kindof want to see one now just to see the train wreck.
That sounds correct to me. It's a very interesting deck, I might steal it for a bit too, replacing Mukla with something I own.
Thought about The Beast because i do own that, and then instantly got sad thinking about how terrible BGH would be there. Should probably just dust that card because it's worthless until BGH goes away. Even with other BGH targets, that's still probably still the worst to have gotten BGH'd.
veloxStrix
Banned
Why is Shaman a thing today as soon as I play a deck that has a bad matchup against it. :l
Literally Tier 3 deck that I've ran into 3 times in a row somehow. I hate this game sometimes. xD
Don't get me wrong, I've played a lot of Shaman and tried to get it to work (mostly a quicker Midrange variant), but the inconsistent card draw combined with decreasing relevance of Feral Spirits and such makes it a much weaker deck than most of the meta right now.
With that said, I'm running a bastardization of Combo Warlock and Zoo right now that is particularly weak against early AoE (Lightning Storm). It's a weird list that I'm tweaking, which is part of the reason for my frustration at running into a fairly unpopular deck that can simply win with Lightning Storm unless I get the Eggs out.
I might be too harsh and it could be Tier 2, but it will definitely fall to Tier 3 once Blackrock completely releases. Too much negative synergy with the totems.
Literally Tier 3 deck that I've ran into 3 times in a row somehow. I hate this game sometimes. xD
Don't get me wrong, I've played a lot of Shaman and tried to get it to work (mostly a quicker Midrange variant), but the inconsistent card draw combined with decreasing relevance of Feral Spirits and such makes it a much weaker deck than most of the meta right now.
With that said, I'm running a bastardization of Combo Warlock and Zoo right now that is particularly weak against early AoE (Lightning Storm). It's a weird list that I'm tweaking, which is part of the reason for my frustration at running into a fairly unpopular deck that can simply win with Lightning Storm unless I get the Eggs out.
I might be too harsh and it could be Tier 2, but it will definitely fall to Tier 3 once Blackrock completely releases. Too much negative synergy with the totems.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
Vanillalite
Ask me about the GAF Notebook
So what does everyone think of the new board?
Also does anyone listen to any good Hearthstone podcasts? I'd prefer something that doesn't get to into the weeds so to speak.
Also does anyone listen to any good Hearthstone podcasts? I'd prefer something that doesn't get to into the weeds so to speak.
So far the only Hearthstone podcast I've consistently enjoyed is "The Angry Chicken".
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
I've played 50 matches with a tempo based shaman and so far holding slightly above a 65% win rate. This deck I made immediately after I got the BRM cards, I feel is a testament that Shaman is finding its way back to its pre-gvg roots of being a pretty good powerhouse on ladder. And the meta feels ripe for it. In fact, whenever priest is low count in the meta, I feel pretty good about shaman.
Druid: 50% 3-3 As I work out the kinks and include fireguard destroyer, this match up will definitely improve. How is druid gonna deal with a 4-7/6 hp minion on turn 4? Like wow, amazing. I think shaman is actually favored in this match up because of cards like crackle and hex. In a heavy druid meta, whether it is ramp or fast druid, I think shaman is good.
hunter: 50% 3-3 (feral spirits... so good in this match up and this particular deck can race even face hunters due to it)
mage: 90% 10-1, this is because there is a lot of tempo mages and the mech mage match up really isn't that bad at all. Earthshock, lightning storm, crackle, rockbiter... all amazing anti-mech mage cards. Key to the match up is avoiding really good turns where blastmage can kill you, which really isn't that hard between the above, haunted creeper, and flametongue totem.
paladin: 33% 2-4, here I think these numbers are not representative of the match up. I haven't played the match up enough I think. When I learned shaman in the naxx era, paladin wasn't even played much so I can honestly say that I am losing because of poor mulligan choices and maybe even some decisions. The problem appears to be paladin running zombie chows and shielded minibots and they are much more proactive than they used to be. My deck can become more proactive as well and I can learn a lot about the match up to win more. The main 2 problems are their early board presence and fear of quartermaster.
priest: 40% 2-4 Priest is definitely, and historically, one of the harder match ups for shaman to overcome.
Rogue: 50% 2-2 I'm gonna ignore this stat mostly for now. Mainly because they were all mill rogues. Not that mill rogues are going to vanish, although they might (no pun intended), but because its just too new of a match up and I don't know what to think of it yet. Frankly, I think I am favored and my losses can be attributed to assuming my opponents were oil rogue and I am mulliganing poorly. Damn you harrison jones! And damn you deathlord for getting my single mana tide totem (the mana tide totem literally cost me the game).
Shaman: 1-0 I think I am favored in the mech shaman match up, although these stats clearly are the most underdeveloped. To be seen.
Warrior: 100% 8-0 Unless the warrior somehow gets board control early on, I almost always win this match up. And the grim patron deck isn't doing warrior any favors in the match up since by that time I just lightning storm with spellpower.
Warlock: 75% 3-1 I think all forms of warlock is not favored against shaman. Shaman has a lot of early removal for zoo and can make it very difficult to pull a big wombo combo off with totems and feral spirits. Plus being a wombo combo deck myself, I think my combos come out much faster which means the warlock deck is usually on the defensive. Having earthshock ensures I can get by a taunt or two and hex takes out the a lot of high cost minions providing high tempo swings. For zoo, earthshock deals with eggs and lightning steam generally deals with everything else. Hex deals with doomguards. Zoo has changed a bit so maybe my opinion will change as I haven't played against it enough. The 1 loss was in fact due to zoo, but damn he was lucky with having tapped into a second implosion and I didn't get either of my feral spirits or alakir.
toddhunter
Member
I believe Shaman can beat every other class in the game. The problem is it can't beat every other class at the same time without significant tuning in between.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
No deck can beat every other deck in the game consistently. Welcome to CCGs.
veloxStrix
Banned
I agree with a lot of what you are saying, especially in that Shaman has very good matchups against Mage, Warrior, Druid, and Warlock. And right now, at this very second, it seems favorably position due to the popularity of Druid, Warrior, and Mage.
However, Oil Rogue and Paladin are only going to get stronger with the new cards, and they already have good matchups against Shaman. Midrange does everything that Shaman midrange does- it has early AoE, strong targeted removal, and the ability to put lots of minions on the board very quickly- except better. Oil Rogue is probably the strongest deck in the meta at this point due to the fact that certain hands can win any matchup, and that it's very strong against most of the meta (especially Paladin). A lot of the synergies in BRM favor Rogue and make Sap so much stronger than it currently is. Sapping a Hungry Dragon is insane tempo. Paladin will get Dragon Consort and all the Dragon synergies that will come with that deck.
Aside from that, the Shaman has to deal with his own hero power hurting him due to cards like Solemn Vigil and Volcanic Drake.
Combine all this with the inconsistent draw power (Mana Tide being very powerful but unlikely to gain any real value unless you are already in a winning situation) and the only real advantage it has in the coming weeks is that everyone will be mulliganing for Mech Shaman.
And god rest all Shaman souls if the idio- er.. people over at reddit can accurately predict decks, since they keep swearing up and down that Dragon Priest will be a thing. xD
This is exactly it. Twilight Whelp is actually fairly bad, as you need a Dragon on T1-2 to make it worth it which is very, very different than Turn 3. Dragonkin Sorcerer feels too slow to really make an impact. And like you said, Dragon Paladin does everything Dragon Priest could do, but better.
I can't think of anything that Dragon Priest can do that Dragon Paladin won't do better. I don't think Twilight Whelp is strong enough on its own to justify it and Dragonkin Sorcerer's text isn't even that strong. Meanwhile, Dragon Paladin is getting freaking Dragon Consort and Volcanic Drake makes more sense in Dragon Paladin than anywhere else.
toddhunter
Member
No shit, but Shaman has it worse in this regard because there is no one Shaman deck that covers "most" bases.
Dragon priest might survive one extra turn against face hunter.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
I think you're underestimating shaman's ability to win against oil rogue and paladin. Shaman used to be considered very favorable against miracle rogue.
I don't think sap hungry dragon is relevant to the shaman vs rogue match up because shamans will be running fireguard destroyer. But, when that card goes unanswered... it is basically a water elemental minus the freeze but capable of pushing a lot more damage. Rogue has trouble with 5 hp minions, generally requiring 2 cards to deal with like backstab and deadly poison or spellpower and eviscerate. 6 hp? How? It is generally going to require 3 resources to deal with I think. Spellpower backstab and deadly poison? Spellpower + eviscerate + dagger hit? That is a lot of resources to deal with a 4 drop. I think the more resources they spend, the faster they run out of steam or the slower their overall strategy becomes, which means your window to combo them is bigger. Sure, sap is very strong tempo based spell, but if a shaman is going toe to toe, that sap isn't going to lose the game I think. It isn't the same as sapping a 5 or even a 6 mana minion. Sure, shaman pays overload costs, but on turn 5 he can still play it again.
Same goes for paladin. How will they hit for 6 damage? It is going to be rough for them imo. I don't know where midrange paladin is going to be later on, but right now things would have to line up, like truesilver plus minibot.
I feel like Mana tide totem is one of the most underrated card draw engines in the game. The card is amazeballs and I sorta wish I ran two of them.
"Aside from that, the Shaman has to deal with his own hero power hurting him due to cards like Solemn Vigil and Volcanic Drake."
If shaman is behind on board, your opponent is going to be playing around flametongue totem and they'll remove your totem almost every turn. And when shaman is ahead they are going to use those totems to destroy their opponent's board with flametongue totem. I don't think it'll be normal that volcanic drake gets huge value just because totems die, but it is potentially something shamans can take advantage of I think.
I don't think you're wrong, I just don't know yet and I am speculating different. I think I'll have to play with these cards before I can really judge. Ya never know what the meta might bring to the table and even the decks I plan on playing could be vastly different from what is optimal in the coming weeks.
Try thinking about shaman with:
.png/184px-Fireguard_Destroyer(14455).png?version=e1ce92c13d36b382948c4b9ad9b04370)
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
I just lost to deernadia to a turn 7 5/5 shade fon + savage roar =(
Dragon Paladin will just run zombie chow instead.
toddhunter
Member
True, but I still see the deck as emporer, discount dragon and big dragon on turn 8. Which is good, but you died on turn 6.
Shaman being able to unlock mana is the big potential change coming up. I actually think feral spirit gets you killed at the moment and isn't worth playing most times. Being able to protect them and do something else will help early.
veloxStrix
Banned
Finally made it to Rank 5 again. D< That's enough for tonight. Started running into a lot more Paladins so my plan of switching to Warrior is gone.
@mobius
Miracle Rogue and Oil Rogue play very differently. Shaman's strength against Miracle was in the fact that it could kill Gadgetzan + Conceal and set up numerous taunts. Oil plays much more proactively.
Sapping Hungry Dragon wasn't so much of a Shaman-specific event, but rather an outcome that would push Rogue to being even more popular.
Comparing Mana Tide to Arcane Intellect shows how weak it is. Arcane can instantly net you 2 cards for the same price while being able to be lowered in cost by Sorcerer's Apprentice and buffing Mana Wurm. Mana Tide on the other hand draws 1 card at the end of the turn, while having no instantaneous synergies. Yes, the potential to draw infinitely is there, and to trade with Flametongue/Rockbiter, but ~70% of the time your opponent will be killing the Mana Tide. In a clutch situation, Mage can Arcane into damage. Shaman lacks that option (aside from Drake and Gnomish).
With the Volcanic Drake issue, your opponent can choose when to trigger the synergy. There is no Shaman deck without Haunted Creeper, aside from Mech, so your odds of giving them a Consec + nearly free Dragon are fairly high. You won't always be ahead or have Flametongue, especially against a Paladin who will probably already have board control unless you Feral Spirits. But the issue isn't one of Paladin getting a win-more card, it's of them getting an insanely powerful comeback card which prays on Shaman's weakness of not being able to easily regain the board once it has lost it.
And Fireguard Destroyer + Lava Burst are both good cards, but neither of them fix the underlying problems of Shaman which are less about power (They have Fire Elem, Hex, Lightning Storm, etc) and more about card draw. We'll see what happens, no one can 100% predict the meta, but I feel Shaman will always be lagging behind.
@mobius
Miracle Rogue and Oil Rogue play very differently. Shaman's strength against Miracle was in the fact that it could kill Gadgetzan + Conceal and set up numerous taunts. Oil plays much more proactively.
Sapping Hungry Dragon wasn't so much of a Shaman-specific event, but rather an outcome that would push Rogue to being even more popular.
Comparing Mana Tide to Arcane Intellect shows how weak it is. Arcane can instantly net you 2 cards for the same price while being able to be lowered in cost by Sorcerer's Apprentice and buffing Mana Wurm. Mana Tide on the other hand draws 1 card at the end of the turn, while having no instantaneous synergies. Yes, the potential to draw infinitely is there, and to trade with Flametongue/Rockbiter, but ~70% of the time your opponent will be killing the Mana Tide. In a clutch situation, Mage can Arcane into damage. Shaman lacks that option (aside from Drake and Gnomish).
With the Volcanic Drake issue, your opponent can choose when to trigger the synergy. There is no Shaman deck without Haunted Creeper, aside from Mech, so your odds of giving them a Consec + nearly free Dragon are fairly high. You won't always be ahead or have Flametongue, especially against a Paladin who will probably already have board control unless you Feral Spirits. But the issue isn't one of Paladin getting a win-more card, it's of them getting an insanely powerful comeback card which prays on Shaman's weakness of not being able to easily regain the board once it has lost it.
And Fireguard Destroyer + Lava Burst are both good cards, but neither of them fix the underlying problems of Shaman which are less about power (They have Fire Elem, Hex, Lightning Storm, etc) and more about card draw. We'll see what happens, no one can 100% predict the meta, but I feel Shaman will always be lagging behind.
hypersheep
Member
Managed to get duplicate off on a Dr. Boom. Three Dr. Booms Kreygasm My poor paladin opponent fought valiantly and managed to remove all three of them despite his BGH being the bottom card of his deck.
Try thinking about shaman with:
All I can think about is 1/4 chance of getting BGH'd (goes even higher with Flametongue Totem)
༼ຈل͜ຈ༽_︻̷̿┻̿═━一 Sniperino
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