MetroidPrimeRib
Banned
I take it all back this Brawl is great
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Hearthstone |OT5| Corrupted Deeprock Salt
- Thread starter ZealousD
- Start date
Depends a lot on the body and mana cost. I can see it playing a lot differently in say, the 3-5 mana range. I just really like what Curse of Rafaam could represent but it's likely to go nowhere in its current iteration.
MetroidPrimeRib
Banned
You ever tab out for a minute at the end of your turn and come back and you lost and you wonder how the fuck you even died
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
This fabled 100% all face aggro meta has never been reality.
Well either that or make it so it's battle cry can only be done once. Having once had to deal with 2 reno heals and getting so close the third time is annoying.
Face hunter is pretty much as 100% face as it gets and it was all over ladder doing extremely well. I never even mentioned an aggro meta, just aggro being viable. I don't know why we're even talking about this. You insist on picking something that's besides the point, most of the time something I didn't even say, and starting an argument about it.
BigJonsson
Member
Brawl story
I had lethal on the board but my opponent had Mogor the Ogre out and one of my attacks didn't hit face, leaving him with 1 health.
Next turn he plays a Madder Bomber which hits him for 1 in the face, gg lol
He could have taken the 50/50 shot at my face for the win but didn't
I had lethal on the board but my opponent had Mogor the Ogre out and one of my attacks didn't hit face, leaving him with 1 health.
Next turn he plays a Madder Bomber which hits him for 1 in the face, gg lol
He could have taken the 50/50 shot at my face for the win but didn't
Karsticles
Member
I had Cho throwing coins between me and my opponent every time they were used. It was great until my hand was 100% coins and I couldn't draw.
All the time, but more like the board is clear and I wonder how.
PAULINK
I microwave steaks.
I agree, the deck was pretty op. They wanted to give me a third concecration but I had to pick a minion to even it out.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
Even face hunter must sometimes trade. I misinterpreted what you said, but overall just bored of people complaining about aggro in this game. Aggro is easy to counter, way before reno was ever introduced.
Aggro should always be viable. And likely will always be viable, even if not prominent.
Started playing Anyfin Paladin and I'm loving it. Control Priest and Warrior get totally decimated by two full waves of Murlocs, there's very little they can do if the game reaches that point. I'm excited to conquer Standard with it when the time comes. I think Boom is the only card that needs replacing for the format.
final stats for EU HCT.
Closest thing to ladder stats we will never get. It was just ladder players with ladder deck anyway!
according to casters, most mage decks were freeze mage and most warlock decks were zoo (fast zoo without void callers from what I saw).
Well met indeed.
Closest thing to ladder stats we will never get. It was just ladder players with ladder deck anyway!
according to casters, most mage decks were freeze mage and most warlock decks were zoo (fast zoo without void callers from what I saw).
Well met indeed.
No shit with a conquest format that allows you to ban classes, you 100% bring Freeze Mage and just ban Warrior. I saw one match where one guy brought Freeze and didn't ban the other guy's Warrior, but the Warrior player was playing Patron and basically threw the game by throwing out Armorsmith without getting any armor value.
Speaking of which this tourney perfectly exhibited how skill-less Hearthstone has become with so many huge misplays by players in the winners bracket. Who needs skill when you can just play a tempo deck and still win with misplays?
Speaking of which this tourney perfectly exhibited how skill-less Hearthstone has become with so many huge misplays by players in the winners bracket. Who needs skill when you can just play a tempo deck and still win with misplays?
Gentle Rodriguez
Member
Aggro shaman
Aggro shaman
Aggro shaman
Aggro shaman
Fun times
Aggro shaman
Aggro shaman
Aggro shaman
Fun times
Demon Zoo works very poorly these days.
Using what feels very close to the original Zoo deck is much better now since everything is hyper control, hyper aggro, or flawless curve with huge power play turns.
SonicXtreme
Member
I feel like wild would be a lot more fun if they jacked up the deck size to 40 or 45. That way you wouldn't just see hyper netdecks quite as much since the consistency will be a lot lower and open up more original decks. Standard the card pool won't be big enough but once the pool starts getting huge wild is gonna be really lame seeing a meta similar to ladder right now since the best decks will be so tight and consistent, when so many options should be available.
But I find the most fun in this game in building my own decks and tinkering off cool ones I find, so I'm in the minority. But overall I like decks that give you options and make each game a little different. Mage is usually fun because there's a little randomness that can make the game go different depending what you draw and rng. While something like secret pally I would never play, it's just textbook slam down your op curve cards again and again and again, not fun to me at all
Wild will soon have enough of a card pool that going higher than 30 cards would be a lot more fun I think, I get so sick of seeing shredder come out every turn 4 boom every turn 7 etc
But I find the most fun in this game in building my own decks and tinkering off cool ones I find, so I'm in the minority. But overall I like decks that give you options and make each game a little different. Mage is usually fun because there's a little randomness that can make the game go different depending what you draw and rng. While something like secret pally I would never play, it's just textbook slam down your op curve cards again and again and again, not fun to me at all
Wild will soon have enough of a card pool that going higher than 30 cards would be a lot more fun I think, I get so sick of seeing shredder come out every turn 4 boom every turn 7 etc
Gentle Rodriguez
Member
What kind of Hunter deck plays Cobra Shot, Snipe, Dart Trap, Summoning stones, Heal Bots, Thaurissan? I was fucking terrified as I had no idea what to even expect, especially from his secrets.
On turn 4 he played 2 secrets, so I attacked his face to see what they were, neither popped, I'd never been more confused during a match.
On turn 4 he played 2 secrets, so I attacked his face to see what they were, neither popped, I'd never been more confused during a match.
Like I said before, Freeze Mage only worked in this format due to them being able to ban out Warrior.final stats for EU HCT.
Closest thing to ladder stats we will never get. It was just ladder players with ladder deck anyway!
according to casters, most mage decks were freeze mage and most warlock decks were zoo (fast zoo without void callers from what I saw).
Well met indeed.
And look at that, Warrior most banned class by an extremely wide margin.
With all the talks about nerfing giants, I guess this is a way they could nerf them.
They have to be in your hand for cost reduction like KoW functions now. So if you draw a molten, it will cost 20 not matter what your hp is now but maybe its cost won't go up if you heal for example. I think it will still be playable... unlike KoW. The condition is easier to meet.
accel
Member
I had some free time and made a program that counts what chance you have to get 100 wins in 10 arena runs with a specific winrate.
In short: the winrate has to be really, really high.
Long:
Here is a google doc:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1BVzxnTQOaHFSIIwqc24V8qD-W2WEUHAZa0dOnnGzw_M/edit?usp=sharing
There are two tables.
The first table shows chances to get *exactly* X wins in a single arena run with Y winrate. I counted chances for winrates of 60%, 65%, ..., 95%. The chances are exact, bar tiny accuracy losses from finite-precision floating-point math.
The second table builds off the first table and shows chances to get *at least* X wins in 5 arena runs. I'd have counted the chances for 10 runs, but the algorithm is again, exact, and because of that, it'd take a long time to count 10 runs, so I settled with counting chances for half of that, aiming to interpolate from there.
In order to get at least 100 wins in 10 runs you obviously have to get around 50 wins in 5 runs, so I highlighted that line. You can see that if your winrate is below 85%, you can basically forget about it, and even at 85%, chances of getting 50 wins in 5 runs are merely around 42%.
Sum total: it's going to take a hell of a lot of tries and streamers are fighting a very hard battle. Average winrate of 85% with RNG playing as much of a role as it does... translates to quite a lot of tries.
In short: the winrate has to be really, really high.
Long:
Here is a google doc:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1BVzxnTQOaHFSIIwqc24V8qD-W2WEUHAZa0dOnnGzw_M/edit?usp=sharing
There are two tables.
The first table shows chances to get *exactly* X wins in a single arena run with Y winrate. I counted chances for winrates of 60%, 65%, ..., 95%. The chances are exact, bar tiny accuracy losses from finite-precision floating-point math.
The second table builds off the first table and shows chances to get *at least* X wins in 5 arena runs. I'd have counted the chances for 10 runs, but the algorithm is again, exact, and because of that, it'd take a long time to count 10 runs, so I settled with counting chances for half of that, aiming to interpolate from there.
In order to get at least 100 wins in 10 runs you obviously have to get around 50 wins in 5 runs, so I highlighted that line. You can see that if your winrate is below 85%, you can basically forget about it, and even at 85%, chances of getting 50 wins in 5 runs are merely around 42%.
Sum total: it's going to take a hell of a lot of tries and streamers are fighting a very hard battle. Average winrate of 85% with RNG playing as much of a role as it does... translates to quite a lot of tries.
FiveSix4Three
Member
Paladin arena in a nutshell.
I think it's ridiculous that the meta has made amazing cards like Polymorph and Hex obsolete, and Owl is only part of the reason why. The tempo gain that a deck like Secret Paladin or Midrange Druid can get every turn is so huge, you doom yourself by running hard removal. Only Execute gets wide acceptance, because it's cheap and the condition is easy to meet, as well as Shadow Word: Death which is almost guaranteed good value if you play it.
MMaRsu
Member
Uhh hell yeah it should lol. small chance you can actually play it like that depending on your deck tho
I'm guessing either Reno hunter, or some kind of spell power hunter. Yeah it can throw you for a loop.
So why do other decks need to suffer the removal of a tool to get rid of things like taunt because you have an issue with severely broken decks like secret? Shouldn't your major argument be against be against those decks and not the fact that a silence can rid of a taunt?
poppedcollar69
Member
thats some hubris
Oh that game where the secret keeper stayed alive from turn one to the end and was actually what did the killing blow. Yeah that was nuts.
It would be nice if I had the power to change cards, but that's clearly not in my purview. Silence is what you would call a "soft removal." The body is still there, but all its text is gone. In Priest that is costed at 0 mana. In all the other appearances, like KotG, Earth Shock, Ironbeak, Spellbreaker, it is costed at 1 mana. Is that too cheap? It does nothing against Battlecry, Charge, or simply good baseline stats. But well used, it can deny a win condition or, in some cases, create one. When you really need it, you would pay 4 mana for silence. When you don't, it's dead in your hand even at a 1 mana penalty. That makes it hard to judge how much Silence should cost, because its value is wildly variable. That makes it near impossible to balance.
Professor Lich
Member
Well of course people who complain want Silence nerf'd.
If they get Silenced, then they can't complain anymore!
If they get Silenced, then they can't complain anymore!
FiveSix4Three
Member
I think silence on a body such as spellbreaker is fine, but whenever every deck has access to a cheap silence such as ironbeak owl it's a little overkill.
Earth Shock, Silence, and to a lesser extent KotG are fine.
They had the right idea with Light's Champion, but sadly it's just trash when there are only two demons worth silencing.
Earth Shock, Silence, and to a lesser extent KotG are fine.
They had the right idea with Light's Champion, but sadly it's just trash when there are only two demons worth silencing.
Gentle Rodriguez
Member
I'm fine with silence, but I really don't like owl, it's fucking everywhere.
Because mechs were never a problem.
I think we're gonna go that way with spellbreaker/owl. Owl: Silence a beast. Spellbreaker: Silence a minion with deathrattle. Or something like that.
And Honestly I'm okay with that. Silence is too powerful imo. Owl is basically in any deck that isn't going strictly for face. And making that change it might increase the value of stuff like polymorph, making classes feel more unique in how they handle similar situations instead of let me owl that.
Dude, if anything you got that backwards. Face decks will put in two owls to counter taunts and then most non-face decks don't even include Owl. Some classes, like Warrior, haven't put silences in their decks in ages.
This rush to kill any tech card worth its salt is stupid.
Because every single class has the option of drafting this card:
The issue isn't that people want Silence to be removed completely from the game (again another bad strawman argument), it's that it shouldn't be available for so cheap to everyone. Silence is a very powerful effect and having the effect be available on a very cheap minion is one of the MANY reasons why this game dominated by specific types of deck.
You know how NO ONE is asking for a nerf on Spellbreaker/Earthsthock/Silence/Mass Dispell? Because it doesn't make sense to do that. People are more focused on Owl than the actual Silence effect.
Control Warrior doesn't... HOWEVER, Face Warrior puts in two Owls in their deck. This is one of those things where the archetype hasn't been represented properly. I can guarantee you that if Face Warrior was ever a tier 1/2 deck, it would have one or two Owls. In fact, go look at any aggro Warrior list, you will find that they use Owls.ZealousD said:
While we are on the subject, let's look at how Silences are used in various classes:
Hunter - Always uses Owl. Not just for the silence effect to get through taunts but for the beast synergy.
Druid - Has one of the best Silences in the game in Keeper of the Grove not because it's a Silence but because it has the 2 damage utility too. As a pure Silence I would argue that it's actually weaker than Spellbreaker which makes it somewhat balanced.
Warrior - Used to run Spellbreaker because it doesn't need the Owl as its removals are cheap. They can Silence a Sylvanas and then Shield Slam it all for 5 mana. HOWEVER, every single Aggro Warrior deck has to use the Owl because Aggro Warrior has to use weapons to do face damage and they need the taunt silence.
Rogue - They use Sap instead of Silence to get around Taunts.
Shaman - No need for Owl/Spellbreaker because they have Earthshock for Aggro and Hex for anything above that.
Mage - If they need to they have the Polymorph cards to get around taunts. Generally Mage has burn spells that they can use to get through taunts anyway so their need for Silence is limited but if they do need it they have the tools to do so.
Paladin - Paladin has excellent board control tools anyway so they can get away without running Silence HOWEVER most Aggro Paladin lists run Owl.
Priest - Priest just straight up steals your stuff instead of Silencing it which is just better. That said they have 2 cards they can use to silence with including the game's only board silence.
Warlock - All use Silence because unlike Warrior their removals don't come cheap. They need Owl because then they can remove a Sylvanas with Siphon Soul without using up all of their mana crystals. Zoolock runs Owl to get around taunt.
Dahbomb that's not even true. The gap in power between spellbreaker and owl is actually quite minimal. There used to be a time where Control Warrior even specifically ran Spellbreaker over Owl because they wanted more power in the deck than tempo. And you can find tons of examples in this thread where people are saying "silence is too powerful". FeD.nL, just above you, even suggested nerfing Spellbreaker.
The only reason that people are talking about Owl in particular is that Owl is the silence card everybody is running right now.
The only reason that people are talking about Owl in particular is that Owl is the silence card everybody is running right now.
You´re right. My bad.
But as I also said, I would much rather see them moving in a direction where class cards have the silence effect and only class cards making classes feel more distinct instead of handling it with an owl. Especially with the classic set in rotation till the end times.
I already stated why Warrior uses it (and sometimes Paladin). They can afford to do that because of their cheap removals (1 mana removals). Warlock can't do that and has to use Owl over Spellbreaker. Even then both of these classes use Owl in their aggressive forms.
There's a big difference between Spellbreaker and Owl due to the mana cost. Owl allows you to do more in your turn and for aggressive decks that means more tempo and more face damage. It's faster and more efficient.
One guy suggests a change that Blizzard might make to Silences (not even saying they SHOULD do that) and now people are apparently asking for Silence across the board to be nerfed. No, the issue people have is specifically with Owl. Mostly because Spellbreaker exists but people pick Owl way more because it fits the way the game is played ie. Tempo and Aggro style.
What they should be doing is moving Owl to Hunter and giving classes more class specific silence like effects. It's more interesting that way instead of every single aggro deck in the game running Owl (or Earthshock because it's even better than Owl for Aggro Shaman).
Only people ALWAYS complain about Taunt and Deathrattles. There's where the whole "Taunt needs nerf" meme even comes from.Xanathus said:
Taunt is losing their best minion in Belcher and Deathrattles are losing like 10 different minions that were really strong.
irfaanator
Banned
what do you guys think of this. Idk how i feel about it right now