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Hearthstone |OT5| Corrupted Deeprock Salt
- Thread starter ZealousD
- Start date
MetroidPrimeRib
Banned
Finally opened a Warleader which was basically the last classic Epic I needed...but the Murk Eye screen seemed to bug out and pop up three separate times and gave me him multiple copies?
Not like I can do much with it but...uh, what.
Known glitch. Happens to pretty much everyone with Murk Eye and Parrot
Mustard, Haunted Creeper, and Imp-losion are all going away. What other bullshit is there, realistically? I suppose Druid has Living Roots now, but there's also Unleash the Hounds which has been nerfed and un-nerfed since beta. If they didn't change Knife Juggler back in the days of the Nat Pagle and Leeroy Zoo, I don't see why they should do it now.
Unleash mainly. Plus other cards in the future could spawn a ton of tokens.
Back in the day we didn't have Implosion, Muster for Battle, Haunted Creepers, Living Roots etc. The strength of the card wasn't fully exposed until other cards were released.
Does that sound familiar? Sounds a lot like what happened with Warsong Commander.
Knife Juggler existing makes it so that they have to think multiple times about cards that create tokens. It sucks having games be decided by which juggle falls where in the early game and then having the game snowball from there.
Karsticles
Member
What does Reynad play?
At the same time, I don't think Zoo decks could survive without Juggler.
If you keep going with that line of thinking you might as well make every single card in the game do nothing. "Silence is too powerful because it potentially nullifies every single card in the game", "Charge is too powerful because you cannot react to it", "Giving +2 attack for a turn is too powerful because it enables you to break your own Nerubian Egg". Juggler + token spawners is the entire point of making a deck with card synergies. All these complaints are literally people too blind to see that a game needs to have interesting powers that synergize with each other or the game is just going to be filled with Chillwind Yetis.
Karsticles
Member
Agreed. The cards that need a second look are those that can decide games alone.
Again with the bad strawman argument. No, I do not want Knife Juggler to be a 3/2 no ability minion. I personally want Knife Juggler to be a reasonable two drop so that every somewhat aggressive deck doesn't run it as their default 2 drop like they did with Shredder/Dr Boom. They can nerf the card however they please. They can keep the effect and reduce the stats to 2/2.
A lot of people think the card will/should be nerfed (hence why I posted Reynad's list). We are just having a conversation here. When they first announced that they would be nerfing cards, in that same interview Blizzard was asked if Juggler would get nerfed. Clearly this is a card a lot of people have an issue with.
The point of "nerf cards that win game by themselves" is a bad one. Blizzard has nerfed cards that don't win by themselves because a card that won by itself would be far too broken and would sooner just get banned by the community. Undertaker didn't win games by itself, it required a Deathrattle heavy decks and for you to get the proper curve to buff it. By itself it's just a 1/2 minion. Warsong Commander doesn't do anything by itself, it needed a Patron or a Berserker to do anything. Shredder doesn't win games by itself, neither does Dr Boom or even Mysterious Challenger.
The cards that have been nerfed are cards that are either too good for their cost (like Leeroy) or had mechanics that presented potential game design problems for Blizzard (Warsong). At least that's the PR response of Blizzard.
A lot of people think the card will/should be nerfed (hence why I posted Reynad's list). We are just having a conversation here. When they first announced that they would be nerfing cards, in that same interview Blizzard was asked if Juggler would get nerfed. Clearly this is a card a lot of people have an issue with.
Juggler decides games for sure. So many games are decided by early juggles that either land on the perfect target or miss completely. A lot of times it has very little to do with generation of tokens and just winning an early 1/2 or 1/3 chance play that allows you to snowball board position from there.
The point of "nerf cards that win game by themselves" is a bad one. Blizzard has nerfed cards that don't win by themselves because a card that won by itself would be far too broken and would sooner just get banned by the community. Undertaker didn't win games by itself, it required a Deathrattle heavy decks and for you to get the proper curve to buff it. By itself it's just a 1/2 minion. Warsong Commander doesn't do anything by itself, it needed a Patron or a Berserker to do anything. Shredder doesn't win games by itself, neither does Dr Boom or even Mysterious Challenger.
The cards that have been nerfed are cards that are either too good for their cost (like Leeroy) or had mechanics that presented potential game design problems for Blizzard (Warsong). At least that's the PR response of Blizzard.
Karsticles
Member
Key word in my sentence is "alone". Dr. Boom decides games alone. Alone, Juggler isn't anything special. He only works well in a contextualized setting, in a deck specifically made to make use of his ability.
Anyway, personally I would be fine with Juggler being 2/2. It wouldn't effect 90% of the games I play with him.
irfaanator
Banned
you say that, but juggler enables a lot more damage than what is possible. Obviously alone it doesnt do anything, but nobody in their right mind is gonna say in almost any cases that they'll let a juggler live when they can kill it. Like look at this and say juggler was not the mvp of the game. Juggler + imp, juggler+unleash, juggler + muster. juggler + creeper, noble sac, shredder can decide games outright
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccKJBS3IOQA
Read my post again, I edited in extra stuff.
You have to be crazy if you think Dr Boom wins games alone. Dr Boom comes too late in the game to be able to do that. The cards that have the most impact on a game are in fact cards like Knife Juggler which gain the early lead and snowball from there.
There's no card in the game that wins games by itself. If there was the community would just ban it out because that's just silly to even comprehend.
You have to be crazy if you think Dr Boom wins games alone. Dr Boom comes too late in the game to be able to do that. The cards that have the most impact on a game are in fact cards like Knife Juggler which gain the early lead and snowball from there.
There's no card in the game that wins games by itself. If there was the community would just ban it out because that's just silly to even comprehend.
Karsticles
Member
Juggler is definitely the MVP there, but I see a guy who saved 3 cards specifically for that combo. A combo that won't even work in Standard. That isn't even a third as powerful as the Druid combo. On that topic, I just played a Druid that did NOTHING for the entire game but get hit. Then he drops the 8/8 taunt on one turn. I can't quite bring it down. Next turn, he does the Druid combo and brings me down to 4 health. That is stupid on its own level. I still won the game, but I can't believe he could get that close by spending so many turns doing jack shit and then playing a combo. That is a situation to be avoided by Blizzard.
Most of the cards that Juggler combos with are leaving Standard. Only UTH is sticking around, and you can play around UTH. I think it's a good idea to make some kind of change to Juggler, but having him not proc on tokens would be pretty brutal. I think him having 1 set target when he is cast would be a good idea. When that set target dies, Juggler no longer throws daggers. Removes the random element and keeps him from wiping the map.
MC definitely wins games on its own. And by "on its own", I mean that you just play the card and it creates a won state for you out of nothing. I think Dr. Boom and MC both qualify for that.
If Blizzard could find a way to make that card while also removing its RNG I am completely for it.
However, if anything Blizzard nerfs cards by INCREASING its RNG. Just look at pre nerf and post nerf Taskmaster.
First of all the condition to make MC even a strong card requires that you put a number of 1 mana Secrets in your deck. That alone negates the issue of "wins games alone" because without those secrets it doesn't do anything. It's the same thing as Reno Jackson, you are playing a worse deck than you would like just to make a single card stronger. These cards by their effects cannot even function alone because they require a deck for them. Unlike Dr Boom which you can put in every deck and it will perform.
Secondly, MC requires some board presence for maximum effect. If you have no minions on board and then you play MC.. it's not that strong. That's because the secrets generally rely on some board to get their triggers off (like Avenge and Competitive Spirit). What makes MC really busted is the god curve from Minibot, to Muster, Shredder and Loatheb. These sticky minions almost guarantee some amount of board control before MC comes down so that secrets can do a lot of work.
And since you brought up Standard format into the equation while talking about Knife Juggler, you should know that without Avenge, Minibot, Muster, Shredder, Coghammer and Loatheb.. MC and the deck is A LOT weaker than before. Plus it's not even a classic card unlike Juggler (hence no one is talking out MC) so if the worst thing happens where Secret Paladin is still the best, it will get removed eventually. That's why people are observing classic cards with a laser scope, there are here for a very long time.
However, if anything Blizzard nerfs cards by INCREASING its RNG. Just look at pre nerf and post nerf Taskmaster.
Incorrect.
First of all the condition to make MC even a strong card requires that you put a number of 1 mana Secrets in your deck. That alone negates the issue of "wins games alone" because without those secrets it doesn't do anything. It's the same thing as Reno Jackson, you are playing a worse deck than you would like just to make a single card stronger. These cards by their effects cannot even function alone because they require a deck for them. Unlike Dr Boom which you can put in every deck and it will perform.
Secondly, MC requires some board presence for maximum effect. If you have no minions on board and then you play MC.. it's not that strong. That's because the secrets generally rely on some board to get their triggers off (like Avenge and Competitive Spirit). What makes MC really busted is the god curve from Minibot, to Muster, Shredder and Loatheb. These sticky minions almost guarantee some amount of board control before MC comes down so that secrets can do a lot of work.
And since you brought up Standard format into the equation while talking about Knife Juggler, you should know that without Avenge, Minibot, Muster, Shredder, Coghammer and Loatheb.. MC and the deck is A LOT weaker than before. Plus it's not even a classic card unlike Juggler (hence no one is talking out MC) so if the worst thing happens where Secret Paladin is still the best, it will get removed eventually. That's why people are observing classic cards with a laser scope, there are here for a very long time.
phoenix296
Member
Craziest brawl game so far.
Haunted
Member
Well, that was weird. :lol
Acerac
Banned
No matter what you say some insane person will see it as BM. When your opposition runs deathlord they have to be ready for the worst case scenario, apogizing for that playing out is fine.
phoenix296
Member
Does Loatheb not affect Deadly Poison? I played Loatheb and the turn right after my opponent played a 0 mana Deadly Poison (was Emperor'd).
You can give cards negative mana cost with stuff like Emperor. So maybe he had a -5 mana deadly poison from enough ticks. Did he have Emperor out that long?
phoenix296
Member
No it was only out for one turn. I don't know what happened. I played loatheb hoping to counter a spell then he played 0 mana deadly and then si:7'd something I had on board which cost me the game. I forgot to take a screenshot. :\
Yoshichan
And they made him a Lord of Cinder. Not for virtue, but for might. Such is a lord, I suppose. But here I ask. Do we have a sodding chance?
Wait, is this a thing?
Yes. Negative mana cards when played will still be 0 mana, but it will counteract abilities that raise mana cost.
I just don't know tbh. Unless you did something like play Milhouse, that just doesn't add up.
Did you check his mana crystals? There's a bug where it doesn't show Loatheb's effect on opponents' spell cards. Discounted Deadly Poison and SI:7 would cost a total of 7 mana.
phoenix296
Member
This could be it. I don't remember him playing anything after the agent.
When a turn 2 Mad Bomber ends your arena run by killing a Shielded Minibot...
Overall I feel like the vicious cycle of facing insane decks too early on almost ruins arena for me. Like, I had a pretty insane paladin deck, but then I faced an even crazier paladin deck and a mage deck that was even better that. So now I was at 0-2 with deck that should be at 2-0 and had to crush some poor bastards hopes of not going 0-3. So basically when 2 insane decks face at 0-0, it leads to a domino effect of multiple people getting fucked and no one having any fun.
I can usually go 5 to 8 wins and have even gone all the way a couple of times but the occasional 0-3 and 1-3 runs are the most soul-crushingly unfun experiences in gaming for me. I'd rather face secret paladins all day in ranked. I try to tell myself "these happen, move on. It's not like you even lose that much gold or anything", but I just can't do that. I hate every second of it.
Overall I feel like the vicious cycle of facing insane decks too early on almost ruins arena for me. Like, I had a pretty insane paladin deck, but then I faced an even crazier paladin deck and a mage deck that was even better that. So now I was at 0-2 with deck that should be at 2-0 and had to crush some poor bastards hopes of not going 0-3. So basically when 2 insane decks face at 0-0, it leads to a domino effect of multiple people getting fucked and no one having any fun.
I can usually go 5 to 8 wins and have even gone all the way a couple of times but the occasional 0-3 and 1-3 runs are the most soul-crushingly unfun experiences in gaming for me. I'd rather face secret paladins all day in ranked. I try to tell myself "these happen, move on. It's not like you even lose that much gold or anything", but I just can't do that. I hate every second of it.
Knife Juggler already feels pretty bad on curve, we don't really need to make it worse on Turn 2. A better nerf is to change the effect to minions played (ala Hobgoblin). Then it's still okay on curve and you don't have to worry about cards like Muster or Implosion ever again. Fix the core issue with the card, don't just arbitrarily kill a stat point.
Plus it retains the "Soul of the Card" =)
Pretty sure you can't actually do that. I've had Thaurissan tick on Preparation and it still costs 0.
You still pay zero but it stores the negative cost in the background, so cards like Loatheb won't increase the cost by 5. So if Thaurissan ticks a Prep, and then your opponent plays Loatheb, Preparation will cost 4.
The last time that happened to me, my third match was against a mage that coined hero power to my face on turn 1. I felt really bad for the oncoming slaughter.
Tirion approves.
So you want there to be no answer to taunts other than ram your cards into it. No thanks.
I was playing arena last night, played the shade, dude easily removed it, and I drew the 7 dmg card on the immediate draw, giving him lethal on his next turn
Feels bad man
Professor Lich
Member
They'll just make a common version of None Shall Pass.
How quickly we forget the good old hard removal.
So you want to just hoot-hoot to continue SMOrcing? No thanks.
E: BunnyHoppor vs Nicslay series was pretty great!
So you'd rather lose the minion completely vs hey at least i still got a body on the board the opponent needs to deal with.
Yes, it's something you need to worry about. I find it funny some of you are ok with dropping a card and not having to worry about other strategies that can get around it.
Other strategies are fine - trading, buffing a minion, using a weapon or a spell - what's not fine is dropping a 2 cost minion that nullifies your taunt and provides a body.
Like the tournament just aptly demonstrated. Sludge Belcher should take 5 + 2 damage to clear. Hoot hoot and he's dead.
I want to make The Black Knight great again!
RecRoulette
Member
I really like this Brawl, a lot of dumb stuff going on and I get to use classes I never mess with.
One game on turn 2: coin, coin, Elise. That one was fun.
One game on turn 2: coin, coin, Elise. That one was fun.
"After you summon a minion, deal 1 damage to a random character."
Knife Juggler fixed.
Knife Juggler made redundant by Mad Bomber you mean.