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[Dahbomb]

what do you guys think of this. Idk how i feel about it right now

I have been saying that they should've done something about this a while back though I am not sure how they can actually fix that without making Freeze Mage completely busted.

You don't need match ups to be 50/50. A bunch of 60/40s and even 70/30s are fine in a card game like this. The issue becomes when you have a 9-1 match up at the top end (and I am being generous on the 1) of the game. It wouldn't be much of an issue if one or more of these decks were garbage but of these are strong and not only are they strong but they have always been core playstyles of the classes so unless some changes are made... we will always see this bad match up.

 

[Nirolak]

It's definitely a very Blizzard-like goal.

That said I don't think they mean that as much in the sense of that specific match-up as they do in a general sense. They presumably want classes to have at least one deck that functions against most of what they're going to face instead of pulling the roulette wheel and hoping they get a good class match-up instead of instantly losing.

 

[Sheroking]

Dahbomb that's not even true. The gap in power between spellbreaker and owl is actually quite minimal. There used to be a time where Control Warrior even specifically ran Spellbreaker over Owl because they wanted more power in the deck than tempo. And you can find tons of examples in this thread where people are saying "silence is too powerful". FeD.nL, just above you, even suggested nerfing Spellbreaker.

The only reason that people are talking about Owl in particular is that Owl is the silence card everybody is running right now.

Silence is only too powerful when it can enable a massive tempo shift.

Spellbreaker is a weak body for 4 mana. There's a limit on what you can play with it, particularly in the first 6-8 turns of the game.

Ironbeak Owl, though, lets you play a bunch of other shit with it. I think we've all probably had a taunt owl'd, had a Hunter rush face and then kill command for lethal. Did they earn that? Absolutely not. A neutral, two-mana cost minion should absolutely not decide games that way.

 

[Zemm]

Hopefully freeze mage is destroyed, just an awful deck in every single way

 

[FeD.nL]

what do you guys think of this. Idk how i feel about it right now

I hope they mean this in the general sense in that they don't want unwinnable MU's and not that they are going to support Freeze/Ctrl Warrior forever in standard. They have the chance make HS feel fresh every year, it would be really sad if we just see the same archetypes over and over with slightly different cards.

edit: seems that that is the case.

 

[Dahbomb]

Decks that have always been used in Hearthstone:

Aggro Paladin
Midrange/Control Paladin
Combo Druid
Tempo Rogue
Miracle Rogue
Handlock
Zoolock
Face Hunter
Midrange Hunter
Control Priest
Freeze Mage
Control Warrior
Midrange Shaman
Aggro Shaman


These decks are what you can expect in the new Standard format based on years of history unless they specifically target some of these decks.

 

[ZealousD]

One of the reasons that people are running Owl instead of Spellbreaker is that we actually have stuff in the early turns worth silencing, like Mad Scientist. Owl can answer that card but Spellbreaker cannot. And there's always the option for Nerubian Egg too. Hopefully come the next expansion hits we won't have these easily silenceable early game cards.

Now while I understand that Owl lets you play other things, having the extra +2/+2 body is not inconsequential. A 4/3 for 4 mana is not a great body but neither is a 2/1 for 2 mana. Nobody ever wants to play an Owl for tempo but they might with Spellbreaker. Having that extra value and oompfh in your deck can mean something as a control deck where value and overall deck power can really mean something in a control mirror. And in the case where early game silenceable cards like Mad Scientist and Nerubian Egg get pushed out of Standard than this might be an important consideration. Warlock relies on card advantage, not value, so that's another reason why they prefer Owl.

 

[ZealousD]

Decks that have always been used in Hearthstone:

Tempo Rogue
Aggro Shaman

Uhhh, Tempo Rogue hasn't really been a thing since classic, And Aggro Shaman only existed within the Mech and current Face shells.

And I'm actually skeptical that Aggro Shaman will be a thing come Standard, unless they get another burn replacement for Crackle.

Edit: It's also very optimistic to expect that Miracle Rogue will exist in Standard without knowing what cards will be in the next expansion. Its resurgence post-LoE was very short lived.

 

[Xanathus]

Uhhh, Tempo Rogue hasn't really been a thing since classic, And Aggro Shaman only existed within the Mech and current Face shells.

And I'm actually skeptical that Aggro Shaman will be a thing come Standard, unless they get another burn replacement for Crackle.

Edit: It's also very optimistic to expect that Miracle Rogue will exist in Standard without knowing what cards will be in the next expansion. Its resurgence post-LoE was very short lived.

Aggro Shaman will definitely still be viable and a thing, just replace Crackle with Arcane Golem or other chargers or even another Earth Shock. The thing that enables Aggro Shaman is Trogg Rulez and Totem Golem.

 

[Dahbomb]

Tempo Rogue got taken over by the Oil Rogue. A similar Rogue can still work if you use Assassin's Blade instead or maybe they get another weapon/buff. That deck still works and used to work so there's a chance we might see it.

I personally would be shocked if Aggro Shaman isn't a prevalent deck in Standard. The deck only lost Crackle and that's much better than what pretty much every other deck lost.

 

[kudoboi]

Finally defeated Nefarian.. thank god to RNG for drawing divine spirit at the right time.

 

[Ketch]

Shouldn't tempo Mage also be on that list?

Or is that not a thing?

 

[Apathy]

I just entombed some guys deathwing, hes so mad hes roping every turn.

 

[Dahbomb]

Shouldn't tempo Mage also be on that list?

Or is that not a thing?

Wasn't really as strong before Mad Scientist and Flamewaker. Some variants existed with Kirin Tor Mage though.

 

[Tarazet]

Wasn't really as strong before Mad Scientist and Flamewaker. Some variants existed with Kirin Tor Mage though.

Flamewaker isn't going away yet. He's from BRM.

 

[Dahbomb]

Flamewaker isn't going away yet. He's from BRM.

I am talking about pre Naxx era. I don't remember facing much Tempo decks back in the day.

 

[ZealousD]

Wasn't really as strong before Mad Scientist and Flamewaker. Some variants existed with Kirin Tor Mage though.

Aggro Mage was an early incarnation of the deck. That has been around for awhile.

 

[Sheroking]

Aggro Shaman is not a well rounded deck anyway. That deck can easily draw poorly and the only draw it has overloads for 2. It loses to tech cards like Ooze and big taunts, and that only gets worse when Crackle is gone and they have less reach. I mean, once Secret Paladin is gone, that deck takes a hit without having to nerf a single card.

It will probably still exist, and frustrate us all by sometimes drawing perfectly and zerging us down with big trogs and on-curve Doomhammers, but I'm not too concerned.

 

[Dahbomb]

Aggro Mage was an early incarnation of the deck. That has been around for awhile.

If we are going to bring in Aggro Mage then might as well bring Aggro Warrior in too!

 

[ZealousD]

If we are going to bring in Aggro Mage then might as well bring Aggro Warrior in too!

Old aggro mage was way more popular than aggro warrior has ever been. We're talking about a deck like this.

http://www.hearthpwn.com/decks/45379-saturos-new-meta-aggro-mage

 

[PAULINK]

Paladin arena in a nutshell.

my last few drafts I haven't been fortunate to pick up a murloc knight, common my ass!

 

[Tacitus_]

Two games I lost because I lost two 50-50 rolls. Feels bad man.
(flame juggler pls stop smorcing)

and again, flame juggler pls

 

[Tagyhag]

I'm glad Shaman has a viable competitive deck but man, if an Aggro Shaman gets a good hand you're dead by turn 5 and there's 0 things you can do, especially as a control Pally.

 

[Rosenskjold]

Wow, sometimes you really draft a great arena deck with lots of versatility, and shortly after, 3 losses in a row with bad mulligans and opponents top-decking answers to your comeback :/ Arena can really be brutal sometimes.

 

[Pooya]

what do you guys think of this. Idk how i feel about it right now

Reading that conversation is pretty much what we figured. Thijs and others tweeted similar thing, in that how difficult it is to have an edge over regular ladder players with current decks. It could improve in standard, hopefully but I think this is a problem for esport aspect of hearthstone actually.

They want people to watch HS, right. People won't be thrilled to watch no name ladder players playing net decks over and over again while showing nothing worth noting. The few dozen or so recognized names of HS didn't just get there because they were here from the beginning or that they stream, some of them don't even stream like ostkaka. They got there mostly show casing unique qualities or influenced the whole game with their deck building skills that these ladder players are copying now and beating them with.

It's good that just about any one can get good at ladder and come to the competition but if it's just who flips coins better with 50 percent win rates across the spectrum with tempo rush decks, it's not going to be a good esport for viewers or players. It's good that major changes are coming, hopefully they don't mess it up with the new set and game goes back to strategy and planning rather than tempo. If things are going to be like it is now, maybe they would need invitations still. People aren't going to tune in to watch Blizzcon it's just games of insert random name here vs another random name here. When you look at starcraft or dota etc. there are big names that consistently make it there. Only one person from 2014 Blizzcon made it into 2015 and with this route probably zero will in 2016 unless we start playing a different game.

 

[PAULINK]

Wow, sometimes you really draft a great arena deck with lots of versatility, and shortly after, 3 losses in a row with bad mulligans and opponents top-decking answers to your comeback :/ Arena can really be brutal sometimes.

I've definitely had some 0-3 games where there was no play in the world that could save me, their decks were just better. Just this morning on my Mage run I had 7 wins and 2 losses, queued up against a true face hunter that I could not stop. A sad end to what was an ok run

The best games are the ones the run down to the last few cards, it's when they go all in, dump their hand onto the board and pray to god you don't have removal. Just had a game where I was sitting at 1 health with lethal and the rogue had to concede.

 

[Rosenskjold]

I've definitely had some 0-3 games where there was no play in the world that could save me, their decks were just better. Just this morning on my Mage run I had 7 wins and 2 losses, queued up against a true face hunter that I could not stop. A sad end to what was an ok run

The best games are the ones the run down to the last few cards, it's when they go all in, dump their hand onto the board and pray to god you don't have removal. Just had a game where I was sitting at 1 health with lethal and the rogue had to concede.

Few things are as intense as when you flood the board and just sit there as he hovers through his cards... bm or answer, bm or answer!?

The worst for me was that it became 1-3 run, which means it will be days before I can play arena again :/ And it was such a nice deck if the games hadn't been 3 decks with insane starts and top-decked lethals after I regain the game T__T

edit: and now back to ranked. I don't understand how some people only play this, just feels like "who draws lethal combo first"

 

[Tacitus_]

That's why I generally play either zoo or tempo mage on ladder. One's fair and fun and the other is unfair and fun.

 

[fertygo]

I'm frustated as shit with ranked, slide down to rank 19 again and again is no fun

 

[PAULINK]

Hopefully when standard comes around and new balancing I'll be much more interested in playing ranked again. I want to play some fun decks, not just appealing to the meta.

 

[Papercuts]

Two losses in a row by turn 5 to face hunter.

I really should just play aggro to rank up.

 

[Tagyhag]

I'm frustated as shit with ranked, slide down to rank 19 again and again is no fun

Ranked is just a grind to be honest. Anyone can get to Legend if they just keep pushing against the wall until it gives.

It'll be a bit better with Standard.

 

[Dahbomb]

You guys should have tempered expectations with Standard.

While it's true that there will be a large shake up, once the dust settles after a couple of months the refined decks will be posted and then you will see those decks on Ladder constantly until the next batch of cards.

And I also expect a lot of decks to be just variants of existing decks unless Blizzard forces some new tribe like they did with Mechs.

 

[Slashlen]

You guys should have tempered expectations with Standard.

While it's true that there will be a large shake up, once the dust settles after a couple of months the refined decks will be posted and then you will see those decks on Ladder constantly until the next batch of cards.

And I also expect a lot of decks to be just variants of existing decks unless Blizzard forces some new tribe like they did with Mechs.

I think it helps to keep the idea of standard separate from hopes for the next expansion. Standard itself is going to help, I have no doubts about that. But how good this new standard meta turns out is going to depend on this next expansion. It has a lot of potential to shake things up, we're losing so many top tier cards that there seems like a lot of room for Blizzard to do something.

But they could screw it up, put out another expansion with TGT-levels of popularity, and things end up in a bad place. If that happens, I'd put the blame on the expansion, not the standard format.

But yeah, I think some people are hyping up standard a bit too much. It's a tool that lets them create better expansions, but it only works if they actually create better expansions. I'm hopeful, but I won't be excited until I see the next set.

 

[Tagyhag]

You guys should have tempered expectations with Standard.

While it's true that there will be a large shake up, once the dust settles after a couple of months the refined decks will be posted and then you will see those decks on Ladder constantly until the next batch of cards.

And I also expect a lot of decks to be just variants of existing decks unless Blizzard forces some new tribe like they did with Mechs.

Definitely, but I'm still just expecting 1. A lot less bullshit 2. A bit more variety.

Ranked standard will still be grinding but there will be less BS RNG.

 

[RecRoulette]

I'm slowly grinding challenges to unlock the first wing of Naxx before it gets removed, then it's off to the rest of LoE.

This is my current "best" deck right now. I haven't really touched it before I quit playing after Naxx came out. I swapped out two Faerie Dragons for the zap-o-matics, and that's about it. Can I get some feedback on it? I figure everything will get blown apart by the next update, but just wanted to let others look at it.

 

[Intrigue]

I'm slowly grinding challenges to unlock the first wing of Naxx before it gets removed, then it's off to the rest of LoE.

This is my current "best" deck right now. I haven't really touched it before I quit playing after Naxx came out. I swapped out two Faerie Dragons for the zap-o-matics, and that's about it. Can I get some feedback on it? I figure everything will get blown apart by the next update, but just wanted to let others look at it.

you would get wrecked on ladder,

 

[Intrigue]

You guys should have tempered expectations with Standard.

While it's true that there will be a large shake up, once the dust settles after a couple of months the refined decks will be posted and then you will see those decks on Ladder constantly until the next batch of cards.

And I also expect a lot of decks to be just variants of existing decks unless Blizzard forces some new tribe like they did with Mechs.

Thats to be expected, it will be just like MtG, every 6 months you get 2ish months figure decks out ( tweak ) em then, you have 3-4 until next expansion etc, endless cycle but thats way better than now.

 

[Levi]

Never had more than 6 arena wins until today when I went 9-3. Honestly it was a 12 win quality deck but I lost two games when I didn't draw early game and one when I just got out tempoed by someone who had answers for every play I tried to make.

 

[RumblingRosco]

I'm slowly grinding challenges to unlock the first wing of Naxx before it gets removed, then it's off to the rest of LoE.

This is my current "best" deck right now. I haven't really touched it before I quit playing after Naxx came out. I swapped out two Faerie Dragons for the zap-o-matics, and that's about it. Can I get some feedback on it? I figure everything will get blown apart by the next update, but just wanted to let others look at it.

Honestly, seems fine to me. Maybe replace the Squires with Zombie Chows if you have those?

Oh just now unlocking Naxx. No suggestions then.

 

[jgminto]

I'm slowly grinding challenges to unlock the first wing of Naxx before it gets removed, then it's off to the rest of LoE.

This is my current "best" deck right now. I haven't really touched it before I quit playing after Naxx came out. I swapped out two Faerie Dragons for the zap-o-matics, and that's about it. Can I get some feedback on it? I figure everything will get blown apart by the next update, but just wanted to let others look at it.

I'd push the deck closer towards the current Aggro Shaman, replace the Squires with Tunnel Troggs when you get further in LoE and swap Hex for Lava Burst and maybe Argent Commander for something cheaper like Totem Golem or Argent Horserider. Ancestral Knowledge is also likely better than Mana Tide once after those changes too.

 

[PAULINK]

Holy shit, murloc tiny fin TWO TIMES IN A ROW WITH UNSTABLE PORTAL in arena, the best luck

 

[Dahbomb]

Was bored so I made some decks that would probably work/be good in Standard format. Didn't include Combo Druid, Anyfin Paladin, Freeze Mage and Aggro Shaman because they just have one/two card replacements at the most.


Midrange Paladin


I think this deck is pretty solid. It's more Inspire focused. Garrison Commander becomes a nice fit in for Minibot and synergizes with the deck. Knife Juggler would still be strong in this deck.


Secret Paladin

I got Argent Horseriders in instead of Muster for Battle and Flamejuggler/Argent Protectors instead of Creepers and Minibot. I also added in Argent Squires for extra early annoyance though that you can replace with a later drop for sure. No 5 drop in it, couldn't find a good enough fit for this deck. Rest of the deck functions the same minus Avenge. You can add in a Competitive Spirit but meh. Needs more refinement though, some holes are missing but I see potential here.


Midrange Beast Hunter


Replaced Shredders with Tomb Spider, Mad Scientist with King's Elekk and Haunted Creepers with Huge Toad... all for maximum beast synergy. The added beasts allowed me to add Ram Wranglers in it too to smooth out the 5 drop curve.

I added in Dreadscale because Dreadscale is dope and Gazrilla for the Dr Boom stand in at 7 mana.


Reno Warlock

Added in Bolf Ramshield for the Healbot replacement. Also got in Sunwalker instead of Belcher, Shadowbolt instead of Dark Bomb and Gadgetan instead of Chow. I put in Alex as yet another big heal option if need be. Still seems pretty solid.


Zoolock

This has a Battlecry flavor to it. I added in Shadowflame Sylvanas as a last ditch board clear play. Got in Flamejugglers, Dark Irons, Argent Horseriders, Harvest Golem (you can sub for Scarlet Crusader if you prefer that).

This doesn't have Gormok, Sea Giants etc. because the token generation is low.


Tempo Mage

This is more like a Midrange Mage deck. I removed all the Secrets and put in Fallen Hero instead of Mad Scientist and Spellslinger instead of the secrets. Swapped Violet Teacher with Shredder (Water Elemental is fine here too to be honest). This deck is more greedy with a Rhonin and double Drakes/Conjurers.


Control Warrior

Arcane Reaper instead of Death's Bite. Got in Fierce Monkey in there too along with Sunwalker to have the taunt options especially now that there are no Shield Maidens. Double down on Bash and Shield Block for maximum armor gain. Put in Obsidian Destroyer instead of Dr Boom, this card is legitimately good and is worth trying out. Put in both WW and Revenge here as you need the extra AOE clears with Death's Bite gone.

No 4 drop here, I guess you can put in Senjin or a Spellbreaker.

 

[ZealousD]

Way too early to think about what decks will actually be in standard, considering we have a GvG/TGT level expansion coming up.

Like, some people are saying Yeti is going to come back and I'm not even going to commit to that.

 

[Dahbomb]

I know that but it's good to have a base level understanding of what the decks are capable of even without the expansion. The expansion can just fill in the holes as needed.

 

[Cat Party]

I think you still want to play Counterspell as a Mage in Standard. It kind of sucked having your Mad Scientist pull it on turn 2 or 3, only to counter your opponent's spare part or some shit. Its value increases later in the game, when you can use it to stop a flamestrike or force/roar, or protect your Antonidas. It's such a unique card that I think it's worth actually paying 3 mana for.

 

[phoenix296]

Popped my opponent's Deathlord and my Kel'thuzad came out in an arena game. I'm surprised he played the game out.

 

[accel]

Reading that conversation is pretty much what we figured. Thijs and others tweeted similar thing, in that how difficult it is to have an edge over regular ladder players with current decks. It could improve in standard, hopefully but I think this is a problem for esport aspect of hearthstone actually.

They want people to watch HS, right. People won't be thrilled to watch no name ladder players playing net decks over and over again while showing nothing worth noting. The few dozen or so recognized names of HS didn't just get there because they were here from the beginning or that they stream, some of them don't even stream like ostkaka. They got there mostly show casing unique qualities or influenced the whole game with their deck building skills that these ladder players are copying now and beating them with.

It's good that just about any one can get good at ladder and come to the competition but if it's just who flips coins better with 50 percent win rates across the spectrum with tempo rush decks, it's not going to be a good esport for viewers or players. It's good that major changes are coming, hopefully they don't mess it up with the new set and game goes back to strategy and planning rather than tempo. If things are going to be like it is now, maybe they would need invitations still. People aren't going to tune in to watch Blizzcon it's just games of insert random name here vs another random name here. When you look at starcraft or dota etc. there are big names that consistently make it there. Only one person from 2014 Blizzcon made it into 2015 and with this route probably zero will in 2016 unless we start playing a different game.

I agree with almost everything that you say except I think that the problem is not with tempo decks, but rather with just RNG.

Consequently, I don't think they can ever solve it. They have RNG in the game for a reason - quite literally, they want people with few cards / worse deck to be able to beat other people with better cards / better deck from time to time. They are at cross-purposes here, they want RNG to stay for one reason and they want it to go for the other reason. So they will likely do things that both add more of it (in some cases) and remove some of it (in other cases). Given that Blizzard were never good at balance in any of their games (SC is a bit of a bright spot here, but it's far from perfect either), just okayish, I don't think they will succeed at it in HS. Pros will continue being wiped out in open tournaments. Because the game has tons of RNG and the number of people in open tournaments is too high for the pros to get through, math wins.

HS is good as entertainment, but not good as a sport.

 

[Dahbomb]

Removal of GvG removes a good portion of the strong RNG cards in the game. Unless they mess up the expansion with a ton of RNG based cards.

 

[Haly]

It's not just RNG, it's the design direction of the cards themselves. When every deck is relentlessly efficient, there's less room for individual skill and the game devolves into who draws better.

As toxic as Patron was for most players, the mirrors were highly skill intensive games.