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Heroes of Newerth |OT| Free-To-Play [PC /Mac /Linux]

S

Swag

Member
I won 10 coins, for winning. Didn't get anything special though, gonna have to play lots of carries starting out till my MMR gains some parity with my PSR.
 
I

Insured

Member
The amount of coins per win will grow along with your level, also you'll eventually get bonuses for a certain number of wards / kills / assists too :) I think it's important for the matchmaking (search times) to not reward TOO much so people keep having motivation to play MM. And the rewards are purely cosmetic either way, you're not really missing out on any part of the real deal even if you don't have all them fancy skins. Doesn't really bother me I'm not getting everything in an instant. Personally, I found it a fantastic two hours, looking forward to more!
 
K

Kapura

Banned
Hmm, from looking at the forum posts, it seems people were earning betweeen 2 and 50 coins per match, with most winners hovering somewhere between 10 and 20. That seems a bit on the low side for me; looking at shop prices I would have expected winners to be getting around 20 coins per match, give or take a few depending on performance, and the losers to be earning into the high single-digits (6-9). Of course, there are still the recursive rewards Idejder talked about which must be taken into account, but I can't imagine that those would be significant.
 
K

kagete

Member
It's UP??? Oh man and I can't play a single game until Saturday night :((((. Has anyone bought an alternate hero skin yet? The female pack looks enticing but I want to know how randoms are handled? If I random Glacius and bought the ALT do I get to toggle using her?
 
A

Archie

Second-rate Anihawk
It was up, for 2 hours. Idejer posted that it'll go up again tomorrow, but I don't know if it is permanent or another test wave.
 
K

Kapura

Banned
Reposting an idea for coin distribution that I made on the HoN forums:
Looking at the forums, it seems people are unhappy with the current distribution of currency through TMM. I've thought of a system that might make people feel more like they are actually earning them, rather than just receiving them after a match.

The way I see it, people should be earning coins for their team moving closer to victory. The only two really solid victory conditions are shrining the opponent or dominating them and forcing them to concede. Those can be reduced into two groups: Destroying buildings and Killing Heroes. I think there should be opportunities for both teams to earn coins in both areas, with the victor receiving SMALL additional rewards beyond that.

First, destroying buildings. I think that if it's an evenly matched game, both teams will make decent progress into the enemy's towers/base. The most fun games I've ever played involved defending one of our lanes that had already been raxxed while pushing the other lanes into eventual destruction. I don't think that my opponents deserve significantly leess coins simply because they lost; they played hard and their reward should be reflective of that.

In my system, you (being the entire team) receive one coin for the first tower, one coin for the first secondary tower, one coin for the first barracks, one coin for the second barracks (so, two coins for the set), and then one additional coin each for the third, seventh, and sixteenth important building (tower, rax, shrine) destroyed.

This means that if your team pushes a lane and take both rax, you all get 5 coins (primary tower, secondary tower, base tower is the third building, and both barracks). If you all push ANOTHER lane, you'll get one more coin each. If you push the third lane AND take the shrine, you get another coin. The reason the other lanes aren't as coin-heavy as the first lane to barracks is so that teams don't feel especially obligated to go back and push when they can just win, then and there.

Another example in the system: A push-heavy team is able to get every primary tower, but the other team's carry has been getting beefy and annihilates them. They decide to concede. They all still get the two coins from destroying a primary tower and a total of three important buildings, plus whatever coins may be coming to them from the kills (see below) and the end-game bonuses. These are three towers they would not have gotten had they not been pushing; they should be rewarded for their efforts, even though they lost.

The other aspect of the game is, of course, kills. I don't really like the idea of a team getting coins for an individual's kills or streaks, but at the same time I feel that rewarding only the individual wouldn't encourage team play. I do believe that any time a team gets a genocide it is mostly a team effort, though, so I think they should be awarded one or two gold coins per player when that happens.

But beyond that, no coins for kills in-game until the game is over, when the players are awarded coins based on the relative team distribution of kills. I think earning between 0-8 coins per person seems fair, as players can receive up to an additional seven coins for building progress and then even more for end-game bonuses.

The distribution would work like this:
Team's % of total kills:...Coins per person:
0-5...............................0
5-15.............................1
15-30...........................2
30-45...........................3
45-55...........................4
55-70...........................5
70-85...........................6
85-95...........................7
95-100.........................8

If the teams are close in kills, they both receive even numbers of coins. The more dominant one team is, the more the gain at the expense of the other. And these only matter at the end of a game, so just because a team is off to a rocky start doesn't necessarily mean that they won't be able to even out the kills and gain more goblin coins.

Finally, there DO need to be bonuses for the winning team, and a small payout to the losing team for participating. Three coins for the loser and ten for the victor seems about right to me, but number tweaking is all part of creating the system.

-----

In summary, the system works like this:

The coins are even for everybody on the team, with each person on the team earning:

One coin for the first tower kill
+ One coin for the first secondary tower kill
+ One coin for the first barracks
+ One coin for the second barracks
+ One coin for killing three important structures
+ One coin for killing seven important structures
+ One coin for killing ALL important structures (including shrine)

+ One coin PER Genocide

+ Up to eight coins depending on kill distribution (see table above)

+ 3 coins for losing OR 10 for winning

-----

This seems to be fair to me, but I'd appreciate feedback
Click to expand...
 
J

JRPereira

Member
Archie said:
It was up, for 2 hours. Idejer posted that it'll go up again tomorrow, but I don't know if it is permanent or another test wave.
Click to expand...

Yea, we're generally not planning on leaving it up permanently until we've worked out the kinks. I hear it went really well though (was completely passed out at that point). Just a bug or two left to work out?

I'm glad that the queue times seem to be about what we expected - seems that 5-30 second queue times aren't unrealistic if I'm hearing it right.

kagete said:
It's UP??? Oh man and I can't play a single game until Saturday night :((((. Has anyone bought an alternate hero skin yet? The female pack looks enticing but I want to know how randoms are handled? If I random Glacius and bought the ALT do I get to toggle using her?
Click to expand...

If I remember correctly, you should be prompted on any hero selection event, which should include random. If not let us know as we'll need to fix that.

Archie said:
Coins earned in matchmaking are excruciatingly low, but otherwise I'm happy with the whole thing.
Click to expand...

The numbers that we've chosen will allow us to tweak the income per match up and cost (USD) per coin down as necessary (if necessary, anyways), and comfortably. So far people seem to be earning what was planned though.


Kapura said:
Reposting an idea for coin distribution that I made on the HoN forums:
Click to expand...

I can at least confirm that a lot of the factors that you've discussed were brought up during the meetings to finalize coin values. I don't remember the specifics (I'm generally not one of the staff who make those decisions), but there were a lot of discussions about not providing too much of a push toward any one particular play style or strategy.

-----

One thing that would be cool (which I could probably do the UI behavior for), would be to show visual rewards somewhere to indicate anything in a match that you've done that constitutes a coin reward. That way players at least are a bit more informed about what they've earned it'll more obvious that normal gameplay over our target period of time actually provides a nice hefty coin income for normal play activity.
 
J

JRPereira

Member
It'll be back up as soon as possible and for as long as possible - whenever that happens to be and for however long we can keep it up.
 
K

kagete

Member
JRPereira I have a UI peeve that I may have mentioned to Nome before: please let the ESCAPE key be useful for quickly closing options menus, popups, confirmations, public games list, cancel matchmaking, basically everywhere that most Windows users would love to hit just one key to cancel out from. Hon's menus really aren't that intuitive and your reliance on the users dragging the cursor and clicking on specific buttons to get out of menus is a big culprit.

Just my two cents as I love your product and have spent hundreds of hours in the client where those extra mouse clicks really add up.

Cheers!
 
J

JRPereira

Member
That's one of the things on my list to look into. I have to see what might be involved with that as the behavior for capturing hotkeys may be a little weird.
 
M

Meeru

Banned
Yes, that and putting hotkeys for leveling up skill + stats..you can do a button for going to the skill menu and then ur regular qwer keys to select them
 
K

Kapura

Banned
valenti said:
Yes, that and putting hotkeys for leveling up skill + stats..you can do a button for going to the skill menu and then ur regular qwer keys to select them
Click to expand...
A thousand times this. It would be so awesome.
 
L

Lone_Prodigy

Member
valenti said:
Yes, that and putting hotkeys for leveling up skill + stats..you can do a button for going to the skill menu and then ur regular qwer keys to select them
Click to expand...

A million times this. Hate levelling up in the middle of a team fight when those extra stats could come in handy, but since you're focused on your character you can't hit that small "+" button.
 
A

Archie

Second-rate Anihawk
Matchmaking is so good. Props to S2 for getting it working so flawlessly. Now just keep it up permanently thx.
 
D

Dreavus

Member
Aaaand it's down, lol.

EDIT: It worked really well from what we played though, got two games in and found matches really quickly.
 
K

Kapura

Banned
Lost bunches, won a couple. Overall, dissatisfied with coin flow. 2 coins for losing is pretty bollocks, and the winners of course got even more bonuses. Somebody feeds on your team, the other team gets just so much, while you're left with nothing. Don't like it.
 
T

Troblin

Member
played two games, went 1-1

2 coins for the 40 minute loss, and 12 coins for the 40 minute win.

Seems about right, maybe a few more coins for an L.
 
S

Styles

Member
So I've earned a total of 18 coins after 3 games (1 win and 2 losses) until I had to leave for the cinemas. Current kd is .4 or .5. So bad. :lol
 
S

Swag

Member
MM balancing is so ridiculously wonky, I was in a game where I was the highest MMR at 1636 with a team of mostly 1500-1600 MMR, whilst the other team was all 1620+. Was simply a stomp game for them, sucks cause you can't dodge like a normal game :lol
 
A

Archie

Second-rate Anihawk
I must be very lucky with MM then, because every game I've played has been close enough that I wouldn't qualify it as a stomp. Granted, every game has been played with some clan members so maybe that makes a difference. *shrug*
 
M

Meeru

Banned
2eg5y5e.png
 
K

kagete

Member
valenti said:
2eg5y5e.png
Click to expand...

meh. It just makes too much sense for them to iron it out first before releasing it full time. Whether that's actual server stability or bugs or gold coin rates they're fixing up in the meantime we won't know. I wouldn't be surprised if they actually left the gold rewards unchanged or even lowered them once TMM is on fulltime.

I bought $30 of coins a couple of days ago, no biggie. My bros bought just a few minutes ago and now the bonus coins are gone. I'm sure some of the rage is because for a lot of people they want some sort of endgame progression based on unlocking stuff in the store for free so they want TMM out as soon as possible. I'm of a different mindset, the store's just fluff anyway, and its not like most players can't afford the horse armor if they REALLY wanted it.

On that note, I bought the female Glacius alt and... it blows. I like that there's a new voice but I played an entire game wherein no one noticed that I was using an ALT skin, even after I explicitly mentioned it to people. :( Pro tip: play as hellbourne so your character is facing downwards most of the time. If you're legion you'll only see the back of the female glacius model, which turns out to be 95% the same as the original from that view.

I think the biggest problem would be including the new 3v3 map in the TMM rotation. That map is just soooo easy for quick wins and beating down on an opposing team. Maybe make gold coins earned from that map less than the normal DOTA map.
 
M

Meeru

Banned
What I don't understand is how blizzard doesn't have a shop for their portraits and yet they are so much more successful than s2 games
 
L

Lone_Prodigy

Member
I noticed the new Pyro skin. Someone had a Succubus skin too. I don't remember if the new Pyro had the same ult sound ("Watch this!") though.
 
T

Troblin

Member
lol.. wouldn't worry about it.

I've gone 3-5 my first couple games. Think I'm a low to mid 1600 NM PSR guy, so playing against 1700-1800s doesn't help.

Also, the HON rage has gone through the roof in MM. (I've heard every insult in the book.)
 
L

Lone_Prodigy

Member
Kapura said:
It's Catch This
Click to expand...

Oops. :lol

So apparently leavers can't play MM. Sucks, because my time is limited and people are non-conceding douches in the 1200's which drags out games.

Funny thing happened yesterday. The opposing Witch Slayer kept complaining about not getting his ult off despite hearing the sound, then he finally uses it on me. Except I'm Accursed, with my ult going. I tell him "next time, hex first".
 
K

kagete

Member
Yeah MM, especially TMM, isn't going to be fun until its up 24/7 for a good month or so and people's ratings start to normalize. It's no fun being matched against competitive teams where they don't even try to (or can't) get the MMRs to balance on each side. I get that 1900 psr = 1700 mmr but psr works only for that specific scale. Right now with MMR, people's ratings aren't so different from each other even though their skills are vastly superior. Maybe they should have just set MMR = PSR and let the stats take care of themselves after a few months. Does someone with 1200 PSR get pushed up to 1400 MMR?

We don't want to play SK, eG, msi, dwi, DRD, fark, fzd, etc. We just want to get matched with other people quickly and play.
 
D

delirium

Member
Can you not reconnect for a MM game? I lost internet connection, was booted out of the game and I couldn't reconnect to it.
 
K

kagete

Member
delirium said:
Can you not reconnect for a MM game? I lost internet connection, was booted out of the game and I couldn't reconnect to it.
Click to expand...

You can. My teammate had a DC but was eventually able to reconnect sometime after my shit was getting stomped in a 2v1 lane.
 
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