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Heroes of the Storm |OT| Pretty sure that Abathur is AFK
- Thread starter Nirolak
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I think on a coordinated team it'd be deadly...but in a bunch of pugs I haven't seen it do much for me or for others. Part of that is people aren't used to it yet, too, I suppose.
You don't trust hotslogs for anything, but sample size is what it is lol. Cho'Gall's is small, but I mean in general with the other heroes. Once there's so many games cataloged in there it's hard to deny how good or bad a hero or talent is for the general populace.
Your POV makes more sense from an organized standpoint, but not so much in the random chaos of solo and duo queuing IMO. What is actually good when organized vs what is good because people don't play properly is a big distinction.
It's kind of like the Divine Palm vs 7SS argument that people had with Monk for a few weeks after his release. People said Palm sucked and 7SS was more reliable and that was probably true for the majority of people, but through ~70ish games I went Divine Palm all but 5 times and am still at ~70% winrate. People just weren't good at timing it is all, so the other ult made more sense. Didn't mean it was "more powerful", just that for most people it was the better ult/talent to get value out of.
I think your arguments against hotdogs either don't take those things into account, or you just dismiss them entirely even though they are actually very relevant.
As for Gall's Q upgrade at 1, yes right now it does have a way higher winrate than any other level 1 talent but they all have shitty winrate actually. It is picked way more though. WAY more.. I prefer the speed boost on the orb myself though.
Your POV makes more sense from an organized standpoint, but not so much in the random chaos of solo and duo queuing IMO. What is actually good when organized vs what is good because people don't play properly is a big distinction.
It's kind of like the Divine Palm vs 7SS argument that people had with Monk for a few weeks after his release. People said Palm sucked and 7SS was more reliable and that was probably true for the majority of people, but through ~70ish games I went Divine Palm all but 5 times and am still at ~70% winrate. People just weren't good at timing it is all, so the other ult made more sense. Didn't mean it was "more powerful", just that for most people it was the better ult/talent to get value out of.
I think your arguments against hotdogs either don't take those things into account, or you just dismiss them entirely even though they are actually very relevant.
As for Gall's Q upgrade at 1, yes right now it does have a way higher winrate than any other level 1 talent but they all have shitty winrate actually. It is picked way more though. WAY more.. I prefer the speed boost on the orb myself though.
I think part of that low WR for Twisting Nether can be attributed to user error. I would bet a lot of people aren't understanding that you have to activate a second time for the actual damage part of the ult.
Yeah, almost every person I played with had the same issue LOL.
The Cho build focusing on his W is insane. Kaeyoh recommended it on THH last night too apparently. You have way more sustain due to the block stacks + being able to heal yourself off of autos with the 7 talent. Feels so good.
EDIT: To be clear they both (Gall's ults) have low winrates. I was looking at pick rate for some reason. Shadowbolt Volley is about 5-6% higher, but everything is in the 20-30% range even at best. His winrates are abysmal right now.
The Cho build focusing on his W is insane. Kaeyoh recommended it on THH last night too apparently. You have way more sustain due to the block stacks + being able to heal yourself off of autos with the 7 talent. Feels so good.
EDIT: To be clear they both (Gall's ults) have low winrates. I was looking at pick rate for some reason. Shadowbolt Volley is about 5-6% higher, but everything is in the 20-30% range even at best. His winrates are abysmal right now.
Yeah, I don't quite understand what I'm seeing on hotslogs for Cho'Gall's winrate.
Take Cho for example. It says his overall winrate is like 22% in HL/TL, but his level 20 talents all have winrates above 40%, and his level 16 talents all have winrates above 25%. Does this mean most of his losses are coming from games where his team just doesn't hit level 20?
Take Cho for example. It says his overall winrate is like 22% in HL/TL, but his level 20 talents all have winrates above 40%, and his level 16 talents all have winrates above 25%. Does this mean most of his losses are coming from games where his team just doesn't hit level 20?
If that's really what those stats are showing, it would also mean he's not even reaching level 16 in most games, given that even his level 16 talent winrates are all above his average winrate.
That I don't know. It's really hard to tell with him because he has so few games on record compared to how many games he's actually played (but aren't counted due to the mirror).
Games do seem to end sooner because sieging and early turrets and forts are much easier to consistently take.
Games do seem to end sooner because sieging and early turrets and forts are much easier to consistently take.
I dont mean to dismiss any "this is a good indication for whats working for this sample" kind of thinking, i never meant it that way, i just dont further that thinking to -> "and thus these are good talents to take" is all. Im totally in line with the idea that if ppl see success w/ something they should roll with that, but im personally thinking about the context of the entire game. Saying something like "yeah that would only work in higher lvl play" is totally valid, it's just not what im talking or thinking about when i consider builds. Like for example, i was talking last night about how the z thing for gall might not be great for me since id probably forget to use it a lot (plus i wuz blaazed) but i wouldnt be like yeah that talent is booty because i cant use it well. I tried the q width and was like yeah i dont feel any stronger for taking this at all.
My arguments against (?) hotbros always boil down to 3 things i think, but i mite be simplifying: the idea that the skill level for the game is low, the idea that hotslogs has never been seen to me as too valuable/accurate of a source of info, and the idea that while these sites (tierlist builds too) can serve as nice jumpoff point for build thinking, a lot of the time they end conversations rather than start them. I havent checked talent winrates, but i feel like it's probably likely that if you combine the highest winrate talents together itll be a weird mishmash (not saying this is actually the case, trying to describe an error that is possible)
Im more for the kind of thinking like in caff's leoric post on reddit, where he considers the kind of leoric he wants to play in a certain game and talents leoric to get close to that kind of hero. I think hotslogs can be useful but i also kind of think it is what it is and talent winrates off of flawed stats shouldnt dictate build thinking + while it may be useful for like gauging or getting an idea for the state of the players in the game at large, it really shouldnt exist as an endpoint for how someone should be thinking about building (same w/ tierlists that only show a single build cuz of websites). I dunno, ill say it again cause i feel like ive made this clear before, if ppl have success w/ certain things that should totally be the thing that they carry w/ them into the game solo or competitive or whatever, but it doesnt mean they shouldnt consider talents situationally or stop thinking at all.
Also im against winrate as a balancing tool for this too, its fine if bliz wants to bandaid certain things + their goal is a lot more complicated than creating a balanced game (balancing for an ideal match vs. balancing for a consumer population is different and i totally appreciate that), but winrate tells so little of the story of what goes on in a match and what kind of play was occuring. Winrate as a statistic is flawed to me in mobas because conditions arent even and 10 players being involved jank things up really hard. Again, it's not that it's not useful or that it isn't telling a really important larger message, it's that things are more complicated than what winrate can show.
HOTSLOGS gives you a winrate in a vacuum that serves to help serve as a baseline guide for how to approach talents and such. The overall winrates let you see what Blizz is seeing when they make balance changes.
The complaint about "mechanical skill being de-emphasized in laning" translatedsto this: "I like getting free wins off of it." Same thing happened in MTG- there was a subset who liked damage on the stack because they got free wins off of knowing how to use/abuse it vs players who didn't. It's a little different w/ last-hitting (it's a skill spectrum instead of a binary), but it's the same general impulse.
The complaint about "mechanical skill being de-emphasized in laning" translatedsto this: "I like getting free wins off of it." Same thing happened in MTG- there was a subset who liked damage on the stack because they got free wins off of knowing how to use/abuse it vs players who didn't. It's a little different w/ last-hitting (it's a skill spectrum instead of a binary), but it's the same general impulse.
Random side note - really enjoying Falstad currently. His level 13 and 16 talents need some significant work, but the early tiers are now fantastic with multiple options at every tier that are viable and useful. He also is an excellent CHo'Gall counter - after 13 with the right build he utterly melts Cho'Gall, and Gust of Wind is fantastic for either isolating him when he charges in, or cancelling out his incredibly dangerous ults.
I wanted to pull this line out because I think this is the main point you and I stick on with this argument.
Isn't exactly what you're saying basically what having an abundance of games (aka huge sample size) weeds out, though? Even if only 30% of players use hotslogs, the hotdog owner himself said the site analyzes hundreds of thousands of games per month. That weeds out a whole lot of noise or "10 players janking things up". Over time a consensus is shown.
My argument to you the entire 35 (has to be, at least lol) times we've had this discussion is whether or not you discount all statistical data in all walks of life/fields, or just hotslogs. I've never quite been able to put my figure on that being exactly what it was, but that seems to be the crux of it. If you do discount statistical data from very large sample sizes for just about everything, your stance makes sense. If not, I don't see how you can discount 200k+ games per month as a pretty good indicator of whether an idea/talent/hero is successful or not.
The part about you feeling that people should go with what works for them...that I agree with. But until they find that, the data on hotdogs is perfectly relevant and probably the best source for accurate info as it is crowd sourced from a sizable portion of the population and not just some random guy on some random website's guide to playing hero "x". It is even broken down by MMR bracket and we've even recently (in the last 3 months) discovered that hotdogs MMR IS actually pretty damn accurate by comparing it with what we see from the Blizzard sanctioned MMR leaderboards each month.
We don't really have a better source for the average player to find relevant information about a hero quickly beyond pro player guides, and they are based on how things work in pro and high level games so they are, again, not quite as useful for the common player because things are much different for us due to lack of organization and understanding.
What build are you using now Maledict? I've toyed with trying him out to see how the scaling affected him...plus I want an excuse to use my pirate skin.
Exactly.
Nearly every time we've seen a hero change or a talent change, it not only backs up what we feel in the games ourselves, but also what the numbers are telling us on HOTSlogs.
No one should use it as a personal HOTS bible or anything, but the information is definitely useful in noticing trends in your own play and in the play of other players.
Nearly every time we've seen a hero change or a talent change, it not only backs up what we feel in the games ourselves, but also what the numbers are telling us on HOTSlogs.
No one should use it as a personal HOTS bible or anything, but the information is definitely useful in noticing trends in your own play and in the play of other players.
AbundantChoice
Member
Yeah, Leoric is super-fun, and you can go a few ways with him. Super-pester, wave-clear, etc. Artanis *gets* super fun, but you have to make it to the late-game before he gets fun.
Also, both of Leoric's ultimates can be game changers if deployed at the right time, and feel *amazing* when you pull of a key play with them. It's also a riot to see people use Entomb in non-traditional but effective ways (you can do a lot more with it than *just* trap heroes in it)
It literally changes with each match currently.
At tier 1
Gathering Storm: if it's a map with a lot of team fighting, I like to take the new Hammer talent. It can build up quite nicely and end up as a 30% extra damage bonus on that skill by the end of the map. Don't treat it like Azmodans stacking talent, just treat it as a a large damage bonus on that one skill.
Seasoned Marksman - If it's a laning map like Tombor Pirates, I'll take Seasoned Marksman
Updraft: if the enemy team has a lot of melee assassins I'm fond of the extra length on barrel roll to enable me to live or set up kills with mighty gust.
At tier 4
Charged Up: If I'm taking the thunderstorm talents at 13, or the enemy team has significant tank presence which means it will last the full duration (again, it's great versus cho'gall)
Flow Rider: If the map has a sustained laning phase, if my team has a heavy frontline, and if I'm using the Gathering Storm talent I'll pick this one to give even more hammers. If you have two tanks between you and the enemy you can throw a *lot* of hammers in a team fight, which stacks the damage up even higher.
Power Throw: If I'm going the auto attack build, or if I don't have the front line to keep people off me to make flow Rider useful. It's handy combined with Seasoned Marksmen for enabling Secret Weapon at level 7.
At tier 7:
Battle Momentum: If' I'm going the hammer build, this combined with flow rider just means a *lot* of hammers everywhere. You run out of mana very fast, but that's what flight is for.
Secret Weapon: The auto attack build, combined with Seasoned and Power Throw, enables some really high auto attack damage. I was using these talents + giant kilelr to murder cho'gall in one match. Falstad definitely has serious anti-tank power now you can take this + seasoned + power throw in one build.
Boomerang: Bit meh, but I've tried it with Hammer builds if I dont have the mana to sustain battle momentum. Its extra damage at low cost.
If you're in a no healer game it might be worth taking first aid, but he does have some really good level 7 talents.
For heroics, unless my team was really screwed for damage its going to be Might Gust all the time really. Hinterland Blast just doesn't feel as impactful as it used to with Gathering Power gone and newer heroes in the game, and Mighty Gust is incredibly powerful for setting up kills, cancelling other teams ults or saving lives. Really feels like it makes him as a hero right now - using it well, combined with Flight, can make or break so many plays.
Post 10, its generally Giant Killer at 13, and then Hammer time or Aeire Gusts at 16 depending upon what my earlier choices were (Hammertime for the AA build, Aerie Gusts for the hammer build - although you could easily take Hammertime for the hammer build as well as you will be throwing them so often and stuns are always lovely). I've stopped using Overdrive because I'm not taking Hinterland Blast that much, and its not worth it for a single hammer + thunderstorm combo it feels compared to the stun or the massive cooldown reduction that AerieGusts brings.
Like I said though, his earlier talent choices really do come down to who I'm facing and on what map, I really love the flexibility they have put into those tiers now. If they can do the same for the later tiers, and maybe look at Hinterland again, he'll be fab.
Again lol, i dont discount the stat, i just think that it is a poor indicator of the common range of conclusions ppl draw from the stat. If i discuss talent strategy, for example, winrate wont figure in to it. If i discuss general talent strength, even that is contextual, but it is something talent winrate gets closer to (and again has very little to do with sussing out talents on your own). Like put simply, the jump a lot of ppl make from stat -> conclusion doesnt hold for me, 4/5 doctors recommending this toothpaste doesnt make me think this toothpaste is better for me. Agaaain, i dont discount the stat but for the purposes of a lot of things i think about it's not relevant. Ill never say something like i think x talent is good, it posts a high winrate, ill say something like imposing presence has a lot of value against all these auto-attackers, etc. and it's those types of considerations ppl should think about when choosing a talent. Again the caff example i gave, he doesnt consider the winrate when he thinks out those leoric builds because it isnt relevant. Also how many ppl use his passive the way he describes? If that is good advice, how does it figure into winrate? Is leoric a bad champion if he has a low winrate but ppl dont use his passive properly? Etc. Like those are questions that winrate isnt involved in. The only real question i can answer with winrate is what is the winrate of leoric in this sample? While it can tell me certain things about the hero to a certain extent (things like ease of play, general strength, etc.) it again tells me very little about why the stat is the way it is, how this winrate stat is created essentially.
The balancing to me is basically like, oh nazeebo posts high numbers lets put him more in line despite him having a range of counter play vs. oh cast aside seems kind of ridiculous even though ppl dont win with it a lot or play tyrael much in general lets get rid of it, vs. nova makes the game unfun for a lot of ppl lets deal with that, and i only really like the last two types of balancing in this example because there is a grabbable idea behind it. I dont think anyone was complaining about nazeebo or thought he was overpowered, he was literally just winning a lot.
Iunno i like doing this every couple of weeks.
The balancing to me is basically like, oh nazeebo posts high numbers lets put him more in line despite him having a range of counter play vs. oh cast aside seems kind of ridiculous even though ppl dont win with it a lot or play tyrael much in general lets get rid of it, vs. nova makes the game unfun for a lot of ppl lets deal with that, and i only really like the last two types of balancing in this example because there is a grabbable idea behind it. I dont think anyone was complaining about nazeebo or thought he was overpowered, he was literally just winning a lot.
Iunno i like doing this every couple of weeks.
They want heroes in the 55-45 range winrate-wise. If they push above that they're going to nudge em down.
When the two top outliers are Li Li and TLV though? They're less likely to think they're an issue because both excel against uncoordinated teams.
I can't say the same because the more we get from Blizz reflecting hotdogs accuracy, the more stubborn you seem to get in defending a point that doesn't make a whole lot of sense outside of being an argument like my old man has about why computers suck or he doesn't need text messaging because he can simply just call whoever he wants to talk to.
My favorite part is the part where you ~1 year later still don't realize you think about this game much more deeply than 95% of the people who play it, lol, hence why you have such a codgerly view on hotdogs versus other people. Most people need or rely on that information (whether they get it from hotdogs or heroesfire or tempostorm.com) to give them a baseline to figure the things out that you are able to on your own, apparently.
I don't ever say "this talent is good and it has a good winrate" as the reason to pick it and am not implying it should be used as such. If it's good it's good, the only question is whether you can maximize it or not. What I am saying you can look at the stats and see it has a good winrate and that it seems to be picked in conjunction with certain other talents and then a player may infer why those talents work so well or work together from there.
EDIT: Either way, clearly neither of us is convincing the other of anything so it's probably time for HOTSlogs Bowl XXXV to stop circle jerking and talk about something else.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Team Liquid really figured out damage Kharazim, watching a team running away from him is quite hilarious
Yeah i just keep posting because i dont think you understand what i mean when i talk about hotslogs but players using it as a jumpoff for thinking about talents is somethinf we both agree on for sure
I get pretty uppity yelling at the cloud when ppl use stats incorrectly for sure, it rlly grinds my olde bones when ppl use it in politics in particular so yea def something that gets me riled
Samurai G0SU
Member
Arantis is fun 
how old are your bones anyway? I always thought you were young like most people here.
Arantis is fun
Paging Maledict!
Samurai G0SU
Member
im 28, so i guess im over the too old to play hots line?
THANKS GUYZ, I REALLY THOUGHT WE WERE A COMMUNITY!!!!!!
THANKS GUYZ, I REALLY THOUGHT WE WERE A COMMUNITY!!!!!!
RumblingRosco
Member
27.
Looks like we got a squad of late-20 folk in here.
Looks like we got a squad of late-20 folk in here.
Samurai G0SU
Member
almost put my hat up on the rack. thanks Kiblar. Always saving the day.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
You're practically old farts
22
22
Samurai G0SU
Member
im afraid my noob expertise will have people blast me on the wall of shame.
i think i joined vent once? errr.. teamspeak? idk lolz
i think i joined vent once? errr.. teamspeak? idk lolz
Oh please. I'm 36 *and* gay, which makes me... 252 I think! ;-)
Fine Ham Abounds
Member
I'll be 39 in two weeks.
Samurai G0SU
Member
Sorry i haven't hawked this thread like i usually do. What is arena and what is awesome about it?
5v5 w/o lanes??
5v5 w/o lanes??
WonderRade
Member
25 over here
Random compositions (well you get 3 to pick from), sometimes even everyone gets the same hero, very small maps with central objectives to fight over. Short matches. I played it at the convention and it was an absolute blast.
I mean I was also drunk at the time but
RumblingRosco
Member
We got shit to do IRL bruh. Because we aren't teens any more ;_;
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Coordinate with other players and ambush their fight. Flank and pick off squishies during teamfights.
Zeratul isn't the best 1v1 duelist.
Oh and use VP to isolate a high priority target.
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